We/sse?

Hello everyone!


I've been intrigued by the Wonder Economy since I first heard about it. The way I get it, you should try to build as many wonders as you can to get a monster GPP and settle all the great people in your capital. Then you run Bureaucracy and Representation and build Oxford there to get your research going based on that. Is that it?

So I tried a couple of test games to see how it went. As they were merely test games I played easy maps. One of them was Earth 18 with Louis XIV and there was another with Roosevelt in an Archipelago map, which I edited a bit (added stone and silver) to make it more wonder friendly. I see the settled great people can get you the research of another good city or two average ones if you can get the Pyramids. In the spoiler there is a screenshot of each capital when I remembered to take one.



So, when do you think this is a viable approach to the game? In the two cases I got lucky with diplomacy and could build only token troops in the early game and also had little or no room to expand. However, in a normal map with room to expand, do you think this is a smart idea? I mean, instead of building three or four settlers, build The Great Wall, the ToA, the Mids and the GLH. Except for the obvious cases (Shaka and Monty are your neighbors), when should you not try to do it?

PS. I read what I wrote above three times trying to find a better way to put it, but I couldn't. What I'd like to know your thoughts about is the WE/SSE, when to try it, is it efficient, etc.

I think this is viable only on the lower difficulties, and even then it would be easier to win by another approach. However, here are what I believe to be a few necessities to make this viable. First, you need to play as a Philosophical leader to take advantage of the GPP, Industrious would be good, too (I don't know if there's a Phi/Ind leader, but he would be the ultimate for this strategy). Second, I think you should play a custom game and pick your opponents to include no warmongers; you need to run pacifism as much as possible, so you don't want to have a huge military (save a GS to bulb Philo early). Finally, I think it is crucial to have stone, and a plus to have marble, as your most important wonder is the Pyramids.

If I tried to play it, I'd want a high food and production capital, preferably with lots of forest for chopping. I'd start with an early settler and worker, and then focus on wonders, while using your other city to build more settlers. SH should be a key wonder so you don't have to waste hammers on monuments in your new cities.

There is no Philosophical and Industrious leader.

The wonder economy can definitely be done without choosing opponents. I tried posting a game up here and it was going well but then it kind of failed, etc. It was on emperor and I was building wonders and had 3 cities while Alex kept trying to take my cities to no avail. The wonder economy was nice for me in that case since I had few/no cottages for Alex to pillage.

@the reverend:
both games are on emperor and I didn't choose the AIs. I don't think Pacifism is necessary, I guess you're better off with Organized Religion to keep building the wonders. I play on Marathon and I got in the second game a great person every 20-30 turns.
I only had four cities for most of the game in the second one. What helped me a lot is that I got an island right next to the big continent on the map. My neighbors were Joao, Isabella, Justinian, Saladin, WK and Brennus. Everybody was Buddhist and Brennus founded Hindu so in the long war to kill him we all became friendly so I was safe.
In the Earth 18 games I had Alex and JC right next door and Genghis was there too. Diplomacy and a little luck can save your arse.

@DMOC:
Do you think it is a sustainable economy? I feel it takes a while to take off, rocks until Renaissance and then you become bad on research. Usually that's when I have my first war.

Then use your troops and take over a neighboring AI. Now you have enough land to be competitive and cottages as well from captured AI cities.

Isn't this Obsolete's Diety level economy for Industrious leaders?

When I play an Industrious leader i usually run bureaucracy a long while, and wonder spam. But when I find a couple other good city spots (like conquered capitals) to run more specialists I end up running a specialist economy and get tempted to draft out rifleman.

Civic choices can have a huge impact at the end game. You might take a late save and just try shifting civics around to see what impact you can have on your civ.

Typical civic usage for wonder/SE game:
Representation - Bureaucracy/Nationhood/Vassalage - Slavery/Caste System - Mercantilism/Free Market/State Property - Pacifism/Rest Situational

Govt: Representation - Beginning to end usually. If no pyramids, then Hereditary rule can help grow to health caps until rep is available. Then use culture slider to cover any gap if needed.

Legal: Bureaucracy until its time to do heavy military build/draft (Vassalage vs. Nationhood). Eventually as the empire grows Bureaucracy costs more than it adds in the capital.

Labor: Slavery use early to get the first 4-6 cities up and defended, then I usually run caste the rest of the game and use the culture slider to keep the peace after emancipation. I love Caste system and fully teched workshops.

Economy Civic: Mercantilism in early Game, best/only choice. State Property is good after mercantilism and is typically my last civic as I usually finish before founding corps. State Property is also good for maintenance costs of cities over seas. Free Market is good late and when I am ready for corps.

Religion Civic: Run Pacifism early to get a few quick great people. Mostly Theocracy for military, or free religion for neutral diplomacy. Organized Religion can be good in spurts for building bonus, but is expensive to run.

Ignorant Teacher said:

What I'd like to know your thoughts about is the WE/SSE, when to try it, is it efficient, etc.

Click to expand...

It is never the most efficient way to play.

If you like shiny wonders and are good at diplomacy, you can make it work.

Why is it never the most efficient way to play?

Because an extra city is better than an extra wonder.

DaveMcW said:

Because an extra city is better than an extra wonder.

Click to expand...

Now now, some people plays those ridiculous 3 city island starts, where more cities come at astro at the earliest. A couple of wonders never hurt too much there...

Ignorant Teacher said:

I've been intrigued by the Wonder Economy since I first heard about it. The way I get it, you should try to build as many wonders as you can to get a monster GPP and settle all the great people in your capital. Then you run Bureaucracy and Representation and build Oxford there to get your research going based on that. Is that it?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure that I would say that's it... I think there's more to be said about tech path, where there are windows for infrastructure and expansion, how to convert the super capital to a win, when NOT to settle the great people. Plus the lessons of "normal" games that must be applied well to ensure that you have the space that you need to develop your city at your leisure (diplomacy, etc).

When to try it:
Isolation is a positive
Aggressive neighbors is a negative
CIVs designed for early war are a negative
Early production capitals (spiky food with green hills) are a positive
Peninsulas are a positive (less concern about defense of the capital).
Phi/Ind are positives
Agg/Cha/Imp/Org/Fin are negatives
Lots of nearby happy resources are a positive.
Synergy with the wonder tech path is a positive.

not the best way to play if you want domination/conquest/space victory.

Again play the map. Land is power. As you move up the level, under typical game settings, and as a game progresses along, the value of a super capital will gradually diminish compare to the other cities as cottages mature and farms/workshops become more powerful.

As VOU and Dave pointed out, do not sacrifice a good city spot for a wonder. some wonders expire, but a good HE city or a commerce city later giving you 200 beakers/turn will not expire. Learn how to balance wonder building vs. early Expansion. And it is ok to build wonders in cities other than the capital.

@voice: large maps are a negative?

You often get those starts with a fantastic capital but crap land around it and no obvious way to change that (ie no rushable juice capital within 20 tiles). In those starts, it makes sense to focus more on the capital and less on expansion

Also, I think WE/SSE is too much focused around obsolote's play style. There are two relevant decisions which you take early, mid, and late:

1) early horizontal or vertical growth (ie REX/rush vs wonders/happy cap)
2) focus improvements/citizens on food+specialists, food+production, or commerce
2) what to do with great people

Obsolete's strategy, at the danger of missummarizing, is to answer vertical, production, settle to those questions almost throughout the game. This works, as proven by his many games, but might not be 'optimal'

I think doing that for the ancient/classical period makes a lot of sense in certain situations,but like SE there is no reason why you can't let that strategy go as GPP become less useful, while retaining the benefit of a fantastic capital where a lot of modifiers are concentrated.

I think a viable strategy can be to wonder whore up to literature, and then use the capital to do a very late REX, using settlers if land is available (good block or isolated), using force if necessary. A strong capital with heroic epic and a bunch of settled engineers and prophets can whip up an army pretty quickly, and the AI can never withstand concentrated force. lack of maintenance should mean that you have tech parity or advantage depending on AI and level.

1) If you are industrious, WE/SSE is more appealing
2) If you have a production capital, WE/SSE is more appealing
3) If you have stone and/or marble, WE/SSE is more appealing
4) If you have control of the diplo situation...
5) If you have space for at least 6 total cities...

If you have all 5 of these, you should go for it imo. If you only have a couple, you should consider carefully.

... and you also somewhat in control of the tech rate

I had a game this morning that really called for WE/SSE. I was HC. Production capital? Check. Stone in 2nd city and marble in 3rd city? Check. Ability to get 6 cities before being closed off by the Mayans? Check. Control of the diplo situation? Check--Mayans and Ragnar and I all Hindu, eventually all friendly with defensive pacts.

Wonderspammed. First to lib. First to democracy, got SoL. Ox/IW in capital by around 1300-1400AD (normal speed).

Didn't finish it, but I was pretty sure I could launch my spaceship first as the overseas civs were: Monty, Mao, Ramesses (small empire), and Suleiman--not a threat to win amongst them. Only threat was Mayans launching first, but I figured that I could control him with espionage...

This was on emperor.

The term "WE/SSE" is very misleading. Building a few wonders and settle a few Great people in your capital does not make it an "Economy". The wonders merely enhance your economy and the ultimate economy is still the base commerce/hammers from worked tile, trade routes, specialists and buildings + multipliers. So my suggestions to all those new players out there confused by these civ jargons to really learn the fundamentals of the game, focus on your raw economy (including building wonders when appropriate), city management, expansion, new city placement and specialization, tech path decisions, diplomacy, and military decisions. Wonder spam can be fun but it does not help you moving up the levels.

Simply case, player 1 has 4 cities with every wonder in the game in the capital and player 2 has 6 cities with 0 wonder. Assume all cities are of similar quality, In the long run, player 2 can beat player 1 easily in a war since all the wonder would not help you with more troop production since one city can at most produce 1 unit/turn, player 2 can still overwhelm player 1 and win.

ABigCivFan said:

The term "WE/SSE" is very misleading. Building a few wonders and settle a few Great people in your capital does not make it an "Economy". The wonders merely enhance your economy and the ultimate economy is still the base commerce/hammers from worked tile, trade routes, specialists and buildings + multipliers. So my suggestions to all those new players out there confused by these civ jargons to really learn the fundamentals of the game, focus on your raw economy (including building wonders when appropriate), city management, expansion, new city placement and specialization, tech path decisions, diplomacy, and military decisions. Wonder spam can be fun but it does not help you moving up the levels.

Simply case, player 1 has 4 cities with every wonder in the game in the capital and player 2 has 6 cities with 0 wonder. Assume all cities are of similar quality, In the long run, player 2 can beat player 1 easily in a war since all the wonder would not help you with more troop production since one city can at most produce 1 unit/turn, player 2 can still overwhelm player 1 and win.

Click to expand...

In order to understand what is meant by WE/SSE, I trust people will/should read Obsolete's many threads.

You are describing a multiplayer scenario, really. I mentioned above, that you should consider the diplo scenario before you go wonderspamming with Shaka and Monty on your doorstep.

futurehermit said:

In order to understand what is meant by WE/SSE, I trust people will/should read Obsolete's many threads.

You are describing a multiplayer scenario, really. I mentioned above, that you should consider the diplo scenario before you go wonderspamming with Shaka and Monty on your doorstep.

Click to expand...

I have read some of Obsolete's threads and started some discussions in his latest Bismark game.

He finds ways to win his posted games, but he hurries some games without taking the time to take care his empire at times.

I suggest you do this, take a look at any of his game at 1800AD, then go around the forum and find another Deity game and also look at 1800AD and compare the "Economies" in terms of:

Domographics, pop, beakers, hammers, cuture, gold, military and anything you consider "Economy" and tell me which "Economy" you rather have.