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Old Jul 18, 2009, 09:56 AM   #1
PieceOfMind
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Civ4 BTS Probably Improved Gameplay Mod


Pig image source: http://www.timtim.com/
Probably Improved Gameplay Mod

Download v0.925 (25/07/10) for BtS 3.19 unmodded



PIG Mod Design Goals and Description


How to install:
1. Download the installer for PIG Mod, unzip it, run it and follow the instructions.

2. Play!

Modders: The source files are now in a separate download - PIG Source.7z

NOTE: This mod is no longer being maintained. Please check out karadoc's K-Mod - Far Beyond the Sword for a mod that has similar goals as PIG (e.g. "less is more") and a better AI than even the Better AI mod!
Attached Files
File Type: pdf PIG Mod Design Goals and Description.pdf (25.8 KB, 2699 views)

Last edited by PieceOfMind; Jan 10, 2013 at 03:56 PM.
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Old Jul 18, 2009, 09:57 AM   #2
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Comprehensive Feature List Version 0.925

Incorporated Mods: (follow the hyperlinks to see the threads for each mod)
Significant Changes:
  • Nuclear meltdowns are now much less severe than nuclear bomb explosions, especially in terms of the number of buildings destroyed and population killed. Previously 40% of buildings and 30 to 70% of population would be destroyed. Now only 10% of buildings and 20 to 40% of population. Fewer units will be killed as well, including non-combat units.
  • A new gamespeed called Lightning. It is even faster than Quick speed. It has not been well tested yet so be warned that it is not likely to be balanced! Also, if you play this new speed, the Multiple Production option is highly recommended for better gameplay.
  • Espionage Process mod v1.2 by By Jon Deane - allows cities to build Espionage (like Wealth) after Paper has been researched.
  • Optional "Runaway" AIs by MartinHarper. To use the alternative AIs, navigate to Assets\XML\Civilizations and extract the archive found there. To remove the change, just delete the file again. These AIs will be significantly different from the standard ones and I would not necessarily recommend using them.
  • You will no longer suffer the relations hit "You have traded with our worst enemies" with civs whom you have not met. Thanks to Sephi.

Units:
  • Praetorians reduced to 7. Cost reduced to 40 (from 45). Still does not get +10% attack bonus that regular swordsman does.
  • Ballista Elephants receive +1 first strike.
  • Panzer receives free Drill 1 promotion.
  • Ironclad movement increased to 3 (up from 2).
  • Scout animal bonus increased from 100% to 150%.
  • Carrier cost increased to 250 (from 175), but now can hold 4 fighter units instead of 3.
  • Great spy now receives free Commando promotion (like the regular Spy).
  • Axeman increased in cost to 40 (from 35). Same change for axeman unique units.
  • Marine given +1 first strike. Navy SEAL gets Drill 1 and 1 extra first strike chance on top of marine's bonuses (March as well of course).
  • Qeuchua bonus vs. archer reduced to 50% from 100%. Added 25% city defense bonus.
  • Workboats no longer count as military units for upkeep. They're also no longer considered a military unit so a War Academy will not speed their production.
  • Battleships now also require the tech Artillery.
  • Grenadiers can now be upgraded to SAM Infantry.NEW v0.925
  • Infantry can no longer be upgraded to SAM Infantry.NEW v0.925

Buildings:
  • Colosseum grants +1XP to melee units.
  • Airports receive +10% foreign trade route yield and can increase the city's air unit capacity by 5 (instead of 4). Cost increased to 250 (from 200).
  • Castles now obsolete with Corporation (instead of Economics).
  • Nuclear Plants, if connected to uranium, now give 1 and +25% production.NEW v0.925 Nuclear meltdown event reduced in severity (see above for more detail).
  • Hydro Plant gives 1 engineer specialist slot.NEW v0.925
  • West Point cost reduced to 600 (from 800).
  • Great Wall costs 250 (up from 150).
  • Recycling Centre gives 2 with Environmentalism civic. Cost reduced from 300 to 200.
  • Terrace now provides +1 (down from 2).
  • Intelligence Agency gives 6 instead of 8. (may be changed back) NEW v0.925

Traits:
  • Protective leaders given double production for Security Bureau.
  • Aggressive leaders given double production for Jails.

Promotions:
  • Drill promos are now prerequisites for similar promotions as Combat (see below).
  • Charge promotion now available with Drill 2. Previously only Combat 2.
  • Amphibious promotion now available with Drill 2. Previously only Combat 2.
  • March promotion now available with Combat 3, Medic 1 or Drill 3. Previously only Combat 3 or Medic 1.
  • Blitz promotion now available with Drill 3. Previously only Combat 3.
  • Commando promotion now available with Drill 4. Previously only Combat 4.
  • Sentry now available with Combat 3, Drill 3 or Flanking 1. Previously only Combat 3 or Flanking 1.
  • Drill promotions: Drill 1 changed to 1 first strike (used to be one first strike chance). Drill 4 changed to 1-2 first strike (used to be 2 first strikes). A unit with drill 1 to 4 is identical to before - it's just a first strike chance from drill 4 was swapped with a first strike chance of drill 1, making the entire drill line as a whole a little bit better!
  • Woodsman 3 now available to recon units (scouts and explorers). It now gives only 10% healing to units on the same tile (down from 15%) but gives 60% attack into forest and jungles (up from 50%).

Tecnologies:
  • Education now has Construction as a prerequisite.
  • Paper now has Machinery as a prerequisite. As a consequence, Printing Press no longer lists Machinery as a prerequisite since it requires Paper which requires Machinery anyway.
  • Divine Right - first to discover receives a great prophet.

Civics:
  • Serfdom: +1 on all farms but -25% GPP production.
  • Vassalage: -25% Maintenance Costs from Number Of Cities.
  • Slavery: +1 in All Cities.

Miscellaneous:
  • Barbarian Uprising events disabled (all 5 of them).
  • Cities and forts can now each hold 5 air units (up from 4).
  • Clearing jungle now produces 10, one third of that when clearing a forest.
  • Forest preserves now available with Monarchy (previously Scientific Method).
  • Coast tiles no longer give +10% defense.
  • Galleys and triremes given 10% defense on coast tiles.
  • Oil Well and Offshore Platform get 1 more .
  • Floodplains are not removed when a city is settled on them. If the city is destroyed, the floodplain remains.
  • Farms, when worked, have a small chance of discovering a grain resource (wheat, corn or rice), similar to how worked mines can discover a resource.
  • iPower changes for units (iPower is used in Power calculations by the AI and for the Power graph). Catapult 5->6, Cannon 12->14, Artillery 18->19, Mobile Artillery 26->28, Missiler Cruiser 14->42 (14 was far too low and inconsistent with units of similar strength).
  • Whales now obsolete with Mass Media instead of Combustion.

From MongooseSDK:
  • LakeSizeMod (CvArea.cpp)
    Makes the definition of a lake scale with map size. With an XML Globals value of 4 which is what I use, lakes will become inland seas when greater than 4 tiles in size on Duel, up through greater than 16 tiles in size on Huge.
  • EventTileDowngradeMod (NEW) (CvPlot.cpp, CvPlayer.cpp, CvCity.cpp)
    Tile improvements that are hit by destruction events (like a Tornado) now behave as if they were pillaged instead; most are still destroyed, but Towns downgrade to Villages instead of being wiped out entirely, for example.
Purely Aesthetic Changes (no effect on gameplay):
  • Fixed sound effect for supermarket and coal plant.

Bugfixes:
  • UNIT_AI_ESCORT_SEA removed from stealth destroyers.

Testing Features: (these features are not guaranteed to carry to the next version. Most likely I am looking for feedback as to whether they belong in the mod)
Religions changes:
-Theocracy: Unlimited priest specialists.


Other balance changes:
-Explorers get Sentry promotion.
-Hereditary Rule now has +25% maintenance for distance to palace.NEW v0.925



Known Bugs/Issues:
  • I have not yet seen Global Warming triggered in my test games.
  • In v0.925, the Governors Build Workers modcomp is probably not working.
  • In the documentation for v0.925, I've still got Forest Preserves as being available at Monarchy. As I say below, this change has been removed.

Removed/Reverted: (removed since previous version)
  • Priest and engineer specialists back to vanilla yields.
  • Lumbermills and forest preserves are vanilla again.
  • Missionary cost returned to 40 (was changed to 30 in last version)
  • Explorers cost 40 again (45 in prev version)

Last edited by PieceOfMind; Jul 27, 2010 at 01:27 AM.
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Old Jul 18, 2009, 09:59 AM   #3
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Credits

EmperorFool for his frequent code suggestions and problem solving!

The Better AI team for the new and improved BtS Better AI! jdog5000, Yakk, glider1

The BUG team! Alerum68, Dresden, EmperorFool, NikNaks, ruff_hi

Fuyu for his handy merge of Better AI and BULL, plus some extras of his own!

Minor Annoyance for the Global Warming Mod

jdog5000, Afforess, LunarMongoose, Fuyu and others for the Unofficial Patch.

moctezuma for the Influence Driven War mod

AveiMil, Minor Annoyance for feedback, testing, suggestions, ...

DaveMcW for Show Hidden Attitude Mod

UncutDragon for Lead From Behind modcomp

Jean Elcard for Culturally Linked Starts mod

Renegadechicken, EmperorFool for Events With Images modcomp.
Arian for the monumental task of creating all the images.

Pep for his New sentry actions modcomp

Willowmound for the Diplomacy text: ActualQuotes modcomp

denev for the Multiple Production Mod

LunarMongoose for his excellent SDK modifications (from MongooseSDK mod)

Sephi for the Better Diplomatics code modification

Last edited by PieceOfMind; Jul 25, 2010 at 02:46 AM.
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Old Jul 18, 2009, 09:59 AM   #4
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History of Changes to CFC download:

The time of the last edit to this post is when the last version was uploaded.

Start
  • 28/10/09 Version 0.7 uploaded.
  • 29/10/09 Version 0.71 uploaded.
  • 29/10/09 Version 0.72 uploaded.
  • 30/10/09 Version 0.73 uploaded. "PIG Mod Design Goals and Description.pdf" attached to OP. Source for v0.73 uploaded (same as v0.72).
  • 30/10/09 Version 0.74 uploaded.
  • 31/10/09 Version 0.75 uploaded.
  • 31/10/09 Version 0.81 uploaded. Source for v0.81 uploaded.
  • 13/02/10 Version 0.82 uploaded. Source for v0.82 uploaded.
  • 17/02/10 Version 0.90 uploaded. Source for v0.90 uploaded.
  • 19/02/10 Version 0.91 uploaded.
  • 24/02/10 Version 0.911 uploaded.
  • 25/07/10 Version 0.925 uploaded.
  • 10/10/10 Source for v0.925 uploaded. (sorry about the wait)
End

Last edited by PieceOfMind; Oct 10, 2010 at 07:56 AM.
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Old Jul 18, 2009, 10:00 AM   #5
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reserved...

Last edited by PieceOfMind; Oct 26, 2009 at 02:27 AM.
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Old Jul 19, 2009, 02:37 PM   #6
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Excellent. I was just thinking of such a thing. Your ideas are extremely sound.

My suggestions, feel free to totally dismantle them. I'm throwing out a few ideas.

- Either make Cavalry upgrade to tanks, or have Gunships weaker and eairlier. As it is, Cavalry post-Infantry become useless moneysinks until Gunships much further on.

- Chichen Izta gives Walls in all cities and a boost of 10% until Gunpowder. Walls are underused, Castles rarely built as a result.

- Castles give +1 for Industrious leaders, maybe?

- Increase the range of Paratrooper drops.

- I like Forts having +1 , but I'd give the same bonus to lumbermills, otherwise if you're trying to maximise commerce in the long-term, it's still worth chopping the forest. Either way, though it's interesting because a fort next to a river would give +3 commerce to a financial leader, which would be optimal on a resource which requires a plantation before Calendar has been researched.



Recon Units


- Make Sentry available with Woodsman II or Guerilla II. Explorers are made more useful.

- Explorers can be built with and earlier tech, and are slightly cheaper, OR make Compass cheaper. I never build them because by the time I have Compass the scouts and chariots have explored the entire continent, and on a New World-type map it's better to send a cavalry unit, since Explorers die too easily.

- Create a new later-game recon unit called the Scout, rename the one you start with to 'Hunter' or something. Give it move-3, strength-8 or so, and come with Mil. Science or later, starts with Woods II/Guerilla II like the Explorer. Upgrades to Marine.

At the moment Marines aren't as versatile as their stronger counterpart Mech Inf, and I think this would give them some more utility.


Civics



- Pacifism gives +50% War Weariness but +1 .

- Serfdom gives +1 and +1 for Workshops.

As it is, it's useless compared to Slavery, and personally, I go straight from Slavery to Emancipation unless I have a Specialist economy

- Caste System is Low Upkeep.

- Take away the 10% bonus from Free Religion, make it No Upkeep.

- Add in a Religion civic Secularism, comes with Scientific Method, give that the 10% bonus and the No State .

As it is, there's everything to model a modern country except the Free Religion thing. Some countries definitely don't have religious freedom but are not Theocratic. Also, it's a no-brainer in gameplay terms to switch to FR unless you're still enjoying the military benefits of Theocracy.
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Old Jul 19, 2009, 04:03 PM   #7
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Having tweaked axeman myself to 4 I also recommend you give them a 25% against swords, as this gives sword a viable era apropriate counter. Other then that it's cool seeing this mod as it fills a nitch that was vacant
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Old Jul 19, 2009, 04:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PieceOfMind View Post
[*]Does the adjustment to axemen seem ok? In particular, balancing the axeman UUs gets trickier. Dropping the dog soldier down to 3 str with 100% anti-melee could be too harsh so I left it at 4 but being more expensive. Unfortunately this means it's always stronger than the regular axeman and it might be overpowered. That said, it's relatively weak against archers so defending against dog soldiers will require an archer investment most likely.[/list]
Before I split Native America into the Iroquois and Sioux, Dog soldiers were Strength 3 with 100% vs Melee and 50% vs Axes with a 5 hammer reduction in cost. This worked really well.
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Old Jul 19, 2009, 04:51 PM   #9
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This looks great.

I’m a bit confused as to what it means that BetterAI and BUG are incorporated, however. Does this mean your installer includes both these mods? Judging from the size of it I’d say that seems unlikely but if that’s not the case then I’m rather confused.

I don’t like installer’s because I don’t know exactly what they do on my system. Could you also just provide the raw .xml files in a separate .zip please? In the mods current state, has anything other than .xml files been edited?

Thanks for the effort.
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Old Jul 19, 2009, 04:55 PM   #10
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Also, will you change the Quechua? I feel this is pretty vital.

Here is my suggestion:


Quechua
• Bonus when fighting Archery Units reduced to 50% instead of 100%
• Gains 25% additional City Defense (is now 50% total).
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Old Jul 19, 2009, 07:09 PM   #11
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This looks great. I've been hoping for a minimalistic balance mod for a long time, and now both this and LoR have popped up at the same time.

Quote:
Adding 1 to forts. This would hopefully have very little effect on gameplay, but it does allow an early alternative to lumbermills.
Improving forts is all well and good, but forts in every forest tile is going to be pretty goofy.
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Old Jul 19, 2009, 09:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AveiMil View Post
This looks great.

Iím a bit confused as to what it means that BetterAI and BUG are incorporated, however. Does this mean your installer includes both these mods? Judging from the size of it Iíd say that seems unlikely but if thatís not the case then Iím rather confused.

I donít like installerís because I donít know exactly what they do on my system. Could you also just provide the raw .xml files in a separate .zip please? In the mods current state, has anything other than .xml files been edited?

Thanks for the effort.
Thanks for the questions.

Quote:
At this point I will not supply the entire mod because I have not yet compiled the DLL (Still waiting on the next better ai release, and BULL).
So far, I have not incorporated Better AI nor BULL into the DLL because I am still awaiting their next release. If I understand correctly the next version of Better AI may come along with a merged BULL as well (even if a separate download).

So at the moment, the mod is just XML tweaks and the ACO DLL. ACO is the mod you can find in my sig, with only minor changes, mainly in the file CvGameTxtMgr.cpp.

As for the installer, I know some people don't like them, but I think the simplicity is worth it for the users who prefer it.

The installer will only add files to a mod folder called PIG Mod in the BtS's mod folder.

It does not install to the mods folder in My Documents but the one in the install directory.

The changes this installer will cause are completely isolated to that folder.

The other advantage of using the installer is it makes installing new versions easier - it will automatically uninstall an older version when the installer for a newer version is run.

Lastly, I figure the installer is the better option here because I want this to be as basic a mod as possible.

Anyway, I know I could provide a separate download as well but it's largely unnecessary because you can just run the installer and see the files in the relevant mod folder anyway.
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Old Jul 19, 2009, 10:31 PM   #13
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I like the idea, did the same kind of stuff in my own personal mod. Though not that far.

I have a few questions though:
- I understand your point about wanting to give drill the same abilities as combat. However, I disagree with removing march from the combat line just for that reason. As it is now, march is pretty useless.
- what's your reason for removing the +10% coast bonus ? Makes barb galleys even more annoying

Otherwise, two suggestions:
- make broadway require a theatre (yes, that's a *very* small tweak ^^ )
- give a free great prophet to the first with divine right; several reasons: gives a little buff to DR (otherwise alone at the end of the religious tree), prophet is the only GP class without a tech giving one for free, and gives some advantage to getting the last religion - otherwise not spread that much.
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Old Jul 19, 2009, 10:58 PM   #14
PieceOfMind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Reckoning View Post
- Either make Cavalry upgrade to tanks, or have Gunships weaker and eairlier. As it is, Cavalry post-Infantry become useless moneysinks until Gunships much further on.
I am a little worried that this change could be abused. Cavalry are already a very strong unit, and used extensively by some experienced players. Tanks are a very powerful unit and having already powerful cavalry ready to be insta-upgraded to a very powerful unit could cause more unbalance. I always thought it good that tanks could not be upgraded from anything so an empire would have to have a good production base to be able to build many of them fast. With an upgrade option from cavalry, a large army could be built using mainly gold multipliers rather than the production buildings that come at the same time as tanks.

Also, the horse units get the xp from the stable. This makes it slightly too easy IMO to get 5xp tanks very quickly (though at a slight premium in gold cost).

Quote:

- Chichen Izta gives Walls in all cities and a boost of 10% until Gunpowder. Walls are underused, Castles rarely built as a result.
This is a big change. Now that castles have +25% trade this might be a bit over the top. And I feel at this point that it might be a change the AI doesn't understand, making me hesitate further. The AI could build it despite having walls in every city already.


Quote:
- Castles give +1 for Industrious leaders, maybe?
I assume you think the changes made to walls and castles so far are not enough? Castles are already a powerful building IMO, even without the changes made with this mod. Is there a reason you suggested this for Industrious leaders? You think they are now slightly underpowered, with the changes from this mod or not?

Quote:
- Increase the range of Paratrooper drops.
Sounds alright as an idea. Maybe by just 1, for now. This will go in v0.2.






Quote:
- Make Sentry available with Woodsman II or Guerilla II. Explorers are made more useful.
I'm not sure of a way to do this without making sentry available to melee units etc. at W2 or other units like gunpowder and archery at G2.

I agree it would boost recon units but is it consistent to allow a promotion prerequisite line only for one unit combat type and other combat types must go a more difficult promotion path?


Quote:
- Explorers can be built with and earlier tech, and are slightly cheaper, OR make Compass cheaper. I never build them because by the time I have Compass the scouts and chariots have explored the entire continent, and on a New World-type map it's better to send a cavalry unit, since Explorers die too easily.
The problem with improving explorers too much is you could use them in early combat more. Their cost is 40 and they get G1 and W1 free. With W2 they are staight away a 8 defender in forests, and with 2 moves they could end up being used as chokers or something like that.

What I would suggest is reducing their cost to 35.


Quote:
- Create a new later-game recon unit called the Scout, rename the one you start with to 'Hunter' or something. Give it move-3, strength-8 or so, and come with Mil. Science or later, starts with Woods II/Guerilla II like the Explorer. Upgrades to Marine.

At the moment Marines aren't as versatile as their stronger counterpart Mech Inf, and I think this would give them some more utility.
I'm really ripping into your ideas now.
Honestly, I think that is too significant a gameplay change. A unit with 4 free promotions is very risky. Again, using a recon type unit in regular combat (those 4 promos make it an awesome defender in many situations). Allowing that upgrade to a marine would just make uber-promoted marines possible. With 5xp your marines would be G3 and W3, meaning 50% withdrawal chance and +2 first strikes.

To tweak the marine, I think something else could be done. I had considered adding 10 or 20% chance to withdrawal, but I don't think this works from attacking amphbiously from a boat anyway.

I also considered a +25% vs infantry, but then that's probably too powerful as well, as using them non-amphibiously comes quite effective. They cost 160 hammers vs. infantry costing 200 hammers.

Adding 1 first strike maybe? This will make the damage they deal at low odds a lot more substantial. They will still regularly die attacking amphibiously but will rarely fail to hurt the defender like current marines sometimes do.

This would probably mean the navy SEAL gets 2-3 first strikes instead of 1-2. This doesn't seem too bad IMO, but 2-3 inherent first strikes for a unit is pretty significant.

Still, at this stage I reckon I'll put +1 first strike on the marine in v0.2.


Quote:
- Pacifism gives +50% War Weariness but +1 .
Pacifisim is an under-used civic? +50% war weariness is pretty harsh IMO. It already has higher unit upkeep making it unnattractive as a war civic.

Also, I'm not sure how this change would be made in the game files.

Quote:
- Serfdom gives +1 and +1 for Workshops.
What about just +1 commerce to farms? Serfdom is a cheaper civic than caste system and the bonus to workshops could send workshops overpowered...?

+1 to farms will again give another boost to financial because of river-side farms.

What do you think of +1 for farms under serfdom?


Quote:
As it is, it's useless compared to Slavery, and personally, I go straight from Slavery to Emancipation unless I have a Specialist economy
With the above change, it would be a cheaper civic to run than slavery, and the extra commerce could be worth the sacrifice of slavery production.

Quote:
- Caste System is Low Upkeep.
I'm not keen at this point on a change to CS as I thought it was a decent civic aleady. Do people consider it underpowered?

Quote:
- Take away the 10% bonus from Free Religion, make it No Upkeep.

- Add in a Religion civic Secularism, comes with Scientific Method, give that the 10% bonus and the No State .
You feel Free Religion is over-used? I would prefer to avoid making more civics 0 upkeep unless really necessary, as it nerfs the Organized trait.

Quote:
As it is, there's everything to model a modern country except the Free Religion thing. Some countries definitely don't have religious freedom but are not Theocratic. Also, it's a no-brainer in gameplay terms to switch to FR unless you're still enjoying the military benefits of Theocracy.
Organized Religion is not exactly a bad civic either. At this point I don't agree with changing Free Religion.

As for Secularism, I wasn't intending to increase add a new civic. Too big a change IMO.
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Old Jul 19, 2009, 11:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JujuLautre View Post
- I understand your point about wanting to give drill the same abilities as combat. However, I disagree with removing march from the combat line just for that reason. As it is now, march is pretty useless.
I know I feel it's not really satisfactory either. However, at this point I do not know a way to give a promotion 3 possible pre-requisites. This is why I changed March and Sentry the way I did. If anyone can tell me how to add a third promotion prereq I would prefer to go with your suggestion.

Quote:
- what's your reason for removing the +10% coast bonus ? Makes barb galleys even more annoying
This one I agree is a bit on the extreme side. We could mitigate this problem by giving galleys a +10% defense on water tiles... That would make attacking barb galleys just as hard as it is now (they stick to coast tiles) and make defending resources using Patrol behave the same way. The only change then, at least around the time of galleys, is that galleys would now have 10% defense on ocean tiles inside borders where they did not have that bonus before. That's a pretty minor change IMO, and probably that is the best way to go.

But generally I want to remove the +10% defense from coast mainly because of the weird way it affects naval combat. Why should an enemy unit blockading your cities get a 10% bonus on coast tiles in your own culture? If anything coast tiles should weaken a ships manoeuvrability (spelling? lol).


Quote:
- make broadway require a theatre (yes, that's a *very* small tweak ^^ )
I think this sounds a reasonable suggestion.

Arguably you could add the same building as a prerequisite for Rock n Roll and Hollywood as well, but I'm not the one making suggestions here!
Quote:
- give a free great prophet to the first with divine right; several reasons: gives a little buff to DR (otherwise alone at the end of the religious tree), prophet is the only GP class without a tech giving one for free, and gives some advantage to getting the last religion - otherwise not spread that much.
Hmmm. The concern I have here is that you can burn a great prophet on Divine Right then get the other prophet right away.

Still, I like the idea and I think I will use that one. Thanks!
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Old Jul 19, 2009, 11:22 PM   #16
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Quote:
- I like Forts having +1 , but I'd give the same bonus to lumbermills, otherwise if you're trying to maximise commerce in the long-term, it's still worth chopping the forest. Either way, though it's interesting because a fort next to a river would give +3 commerce to a financial leader, which would be optimal on a resource which requires a plantation before Calendar has been researched.
This is probably a good thing because I was trying to think of a way of giving Financial leaders a slight boost. I had considered giving them back the double production on banks, but I think that is too much.

My current idea for forts is:
+1 with a road or +2 with a railroad.

Does this sound reasonable?

Here's what some tiles would look like for a financial leader, before any of the techs are discovered (Printing Press etc.).

Remember that forts are more expensive than cottages, and they available a fair bit later. Coming online at mathematics means it's going to be a limited use for pre-plantation situations.

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Old Jul 19, 2009, 11:28 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AveiMil View Post
Also, will you change the Quechua? I feel this is pretty vital.

Here is my suggestion:


Quechua
• Bonus when fighting Archery Units reduced to 50% instead of 100%
• Gains 25% additional City Defense (is now 50% total).
What about if we just added -50% city attack and left it at that?
I suppose they would still be too good as choke units, just slightly less useful for taking cities.

I don't want to nerf the quechua too much, but I definitely agree that it is way too cheesy having a cheap warrior that can take archer defender AI cities on the higher levels (except maybe Deity).

EDIT... On second thoughts, my suggested change above is not so good because it nerfs the quechua for attacking warrior-defended cities.

Therefore I think I will go with something like your suggestion. It makes the quechua a slightly better city defender which could make it an interesting choice between archers and quechuas early on. AIs and even human players do not attack with archers very often.

I will go with your suggestion for v0.2.
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Old Jul 19, 2009, 11:34 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by PieceOfMind View Post
Hmmm. The concern I have here is that you can burn a great prophet on Divine Right then get the other prophet right away.
Well, you can already do that for music and economics, can't you? (I won't talk about the other GP giving techs, too expensive)

-- ah, almost forgot; I thought also some time about giving serfdom a boost. Since we're talking about workers here, I believe that giving a bonus to some improvements would be a good idea. I thought at some time about giving 1 more commerce to mines/plantations/stuff like that (that is, no cottage and no farm), but it seemed complicated; I thought also about giving 1 more commerce to farms, but perhaps it would be a little bit too strong. If you also feel that way, I was then thinking about giving some penalty for using specialists: either by making them less strong (like, 1 less science for each), or by applying a penalty to GPP. Did not go any further though, just some thoughts.

PS: manoeuvrability is correct, thank you firefox
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Old Jul 19, 2009, 11:42 PM   #19
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I have a suggestion: if players don't like to build certain unit or building, or use certain trait or promotion, it's probably a good idea to improve them HUGELY, not just a tiny bit. For example, protective trait may actually good enough now, but in my perception, it's still weak and unattractive. After all, it's perception of balance in player's mind that's really matters. We can always tune down them in the future if we went too far, but then the player's perception will have already changed.
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Old Jul 20, 2009, 12:05 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by JujuLautre View Post
Well, you can already do that for music and economics, can't you? (I won't talk about the other GP giving techs, too expensive)
Of course. I just mention it, but it doesn't worry me greatly. The reason I thought of it was recently in a MP game I nearly had the opportunity to bulb Divine Right before Philosophy. If DR had granted a free prophet I could have bulbed DR and then researched Meditation (or whatever the tech was) so i could then bulb Philosophy straight away as well. So maybe the GP tech preferences would need to be reordered now we have made this change. DR should come below Philosophy so something like what I described above does not occur.

Quote:
- ah, almost forgot; I thought also some time about giving serfdom a boost. Since we're talking about workers here, I believe that giving a bonus to some improvements would be a good idea. I thought at some time about giving 1 more commerce to mines/plantations/stuff like that (that is, no cottage and no farm), but it seemed complicated; I thought also about giving 1 more commerce to farms, but perhaps it would be a little bit too strong. If you also feel that way, I was then thinking about giving some penalty for using specialists: either by making them less strong (like, 1 less science for each), or by applying a penalty to GPP. Did not go any further though, just some thoughts.
Would +1 for farms really be that good? The only time it will ever give +2 is for Fin leaders who will be sacrificing the chance to use a cottage anyway.

I think a negative bonus to GPP production sounds like a good idea. -25% would be ok?
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