Depression/Recovery Watch: August

Are we still in recession or are we in recovery?


  • Total voters
    64
  • Poll closed .

Rashiminos

Fool Prophet
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Here's a poll:

Given what you have learned over the past year, are you led to believe that

a) There was a severe recession, but we are in a recovery that will be sustained.
b) There is still a recession, and it's possible that it could worsen.
c) Other (please explain)
d) It doesn't matter as long as I have my radioactive monkeys.

Spoiler :
U.S. Recession Worst Since Great Depression, Revised Data Show

By Bob Willis

Aug. 1 (Bloomberg) -- The first 12 months of the U.S. recession saw the economy shrink more than twice as much as previously estimated, reflecting even bigger declines in consumer spending and housing, revised figures showed.

The world’s largest economy contracted 1.9 percent from the fourth quarter of 2007 to the last three months of 2008, compared with the 0.8 percent drop previously on the books, the Commerce Department said yesterday in Washington. Gross domestic product has shrunk 3.9 percent in the past year, the report said, indicating the worst slump since the Great Depression.

Updated statistics also showed that Americans earned more over the last 10 years and socked away a larger share of that cash in savings. The report signals the process of repairing tattered balance sheets following the biggest drop in household wealth on record may be further along than anticipated.

“The current downturn beginning in 2008 is more pronounced,” Steven Landefeld, director of the Commerce Department’s Bureau of Economic Analysis, said in a press briefing this week. The revisions were in line with past experience in which initial figures tended to underestimate the severity of contractions during their early stages, he said.

Consumer spending, which accounts for 70 percent of the economy, decreased 1.8 percent in last year’s fourth quarter from the same period in 2007, exceeding the prior estimate of a 1.5 percent drop. Purchases also began sinking sooner than previously projected, registering their first decline at the start of 2008 rather than in the second half.

Treasuries, Stocks

Treasuries gained after the GDP report, while stocks closed little changed. Benchmark 10-year note yields dropped to 3.48 percent by the close in New York, from 3.61 percent late the day before. The Standard & Poor’s 500 Stock Index closed at 987.48.

Residential construction fell 21 percent during the period, almost 2 percentage points more than previously reported, aggravating what was already the worst slump since the Great Depression.

The Commerce Department also reported yesterday that the economy contracted at a 1 percent annual rate from April through June after shrinking at a 6.4 percent pace in the first quarter, the most since 1982. The decline in the first three months of the year was previously reported as 5.5 percent.

Recession’s Start

The National Bureau of Economic Research, the arbiter of U.S. business cycles, last year determined the recession started in December 2007. The private group is based in Cambridge, Massachusetts,

Yesterday’s updates are part of comprehensive revisions that take place about every five years and are more extensive than the changes announced at this time each year. Figures as far back as 1929 can be revised.

Over the most recent period, the third quarter of 2008 underwent one of the biggest changes, going from a 0.5 percent decrease in GDP to a 2.7 percent drop. The new reading better illustrates the effect the September collapse of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. had on the economy and credit markets.

The deeper deterioration last year underscores why Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke and his colleagues at the central bank cut the benchmark rate to a record low and extended credit to non-banks for the first time since the 1930s.

The new GDP data also help explain why the unemployment rate shot up 2.3 percentage points last year, the biggest annual jump since 1982.

2001 Recession Milder

The revisions showed that the 2001 recession was less severe than originally estimated, reflecting a smaller decline in business investment. The economy actually grew 0.1 percent from the fourth quarter of 2000 to the third quarter of 2001, erasing the 0.2 percent drop previously reported.

Personal income was revised up over the last decade, after the government boosted its adjustments for the underreporting and non-reporting of income using more recent data from the Internal Revenue Service. The increases in the most recent years reflect gains from rents, interest and proprietors’ income. The government changed the way it accounts for natural disasters, such as Hurricane Katrina, eliminating much of the prior volatility in income calculations.

Higher incomes and less spending translated into bigger savings. The savings rate for 2008 was revised up to 2.7 percent from 1.8 percent. The rate shot up to 5.2 percent in the second quarter, the highest level since 1998.

The government revised corporate profits down for 2006-2008 and up for 2004 and 2005.

Finally, Commerce shifted food services, which include meals purchased at restaurants or served in schools, out of the food category. As a result, the Fed’s preferred inflation gauge -- which tracks consumer spending and excludes food and fuel -- was pushed up by 0.2 percentage point for the three-year period from 2006 to 2008.

The costs of meals away from home are not as volatile as fresh food, the government said, and therefore services should be included in the measure commonly known as the core index.

To contact the reporter on this story: Bob Willis in Washington at bwillis@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: August 1, 2009 12:00 EDT

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aNivTjr852TI
 
c) other.

I think that at this point, we're in a stagnant state of economy. Despite recent gains in the stock market, I am not at all confident that these gains can be sustained. It is, in fact, quite possibly, perhaps even likely, that we will see the market take another dive. At the moment, it is just too hard to tell. It could go either way.
 
Carried over from the last thread: Q2 GDP.

Keith Hennessey has a good post picking apart the BEA's report. I'll outsource most of the introductory stuff to him. Bonus reading: Donald Marron.

Some of the most important points:
- Business investment declined, but didn't cliffdive as it did in Q1.
- Private consumption declined quarter-over-quarter, unlike Q1
- Government expenditures were the only core component to grow; 60% of government growth was defense spending and 25% was from state and local governments
- The trade components are still worsening at a considerable pace
- All information on the trade components is hopelessly out-of-date and should be supplanted by other sources (BEA for prices, Census for quantities)
- Real GDP has fallen 3.9% from its peak in 2008:Q2. That makes this the worst recession in the postwar era, beating out the 1957-58 recession (in which RGDP fell 3.7% from peak).

Now, I'll make two predictions (90% confidence):
1. Q3 RGDP will be flat or positive, driven by a slight uptick in consumption and a largish uptick in government purchases. We will receive the first report on Q3 in October.
2. Employment will continue to decline for the rest of the year, and I don't expect a positive jobs report until January at the earliest.

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edit:

Previous threads...
Recession Watch: July
Recession Watch: June
Recession Watch: May
Recession Watch: April
Recession Watch: March
Recession Watch: February
Recession Watch: January
 
Where's the change Obama?! I thought you could walk on water and save the US from colapse! :(
 
I'd say I continue to fall into the "other" camp.

I think SF Fed President Yellsin echos my view in that she remains in the deflation camp and stills sees a "painfully slow" recovery ahead. She also expressed concern about the commercial real estate market. So it could be years before she ever supports a rate hike.

One of the three items I'm watching closely on the domestic side has shown considerable improvement is unsold new housing inventory dropped from 10.2 months' supply to a three-year low of 8.8 months. 8 months is average and mean reversion tells me we'll go through that because we always tend to overshoot but the worst is probably over. The Case-Shiller home price index rose for the first time since the bubble burst in May 2006 and 14 of the 20 cities increased. Stabilizing residential real estate prices is absolutely essential to move out of the recession.

My other two indicators are still a long ways away from improving. Employment and household debt as a % of net worth. Debt levels are improving but are still a long way away from a normal 80% level. Frugality and saving will continue to be a strong theme. I think unemployment is now a leading indicator.

Two things that I'm watching closely on the international front is protectionism and China. Recently the EU put a tariff on steel pipe exported from China.

On the Chinese front, Chairman of Asia at Morgan Stanley Steven Roach wrote a disturbing piece on the country. "I’ve Been an Optimist on China. But I’m Starting to Worry". Good read.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/42d38b2c-7bd6-11de-9772-00144feabdc0.html

Basically, what he says is their fiscal stimulus package has re-engineered a credit bubble (bank loan growth is running at a record pace over the past six months and is three times the pace of a year ago) and public sector capex has accounted for 88% of Chinese GDP growth so far this year (double the contribution over the past decade)!! This is clearly unsustainable. According to Mr. Roach, China accounted for an amazing two percentage points of global GDP growth in the second quarter, which helps explain the export bounce in the rest of the continent.

Unless private sector investment and personal consumption begin to take over, the prospect of a reversal is not likely.
 
I thought 5 months was average?
 
There is nothing average about this situation. This is one for the record books. This one economics students 100 year from now will read case studies on.

I concur, I meant that i thought 5 months was average housing supply
 
I think SF Fed President Yellsin echos my view in that she remains in the deflation camp and stills sees a "painfully slow" recovery ahead. She also expressed concern about the commercial real estate market. So it could be years before she ever supports a rate hike.

That is what I am afraid to hear :(. The only thing that would manage to get the economy back on it's feet in no time comes short of some mirical.
 
I thought 5 months was average?
8 months is stable and puts in a floor. Bear in mind, we've only been above 8 months supply 3 times since 1976 (79-80, 81-82 and 06-09) and all 3 were followed by drops in housing prices. We've come a long way after the parabolic up move in inventories from 06-09 when it was upwards of 13 months at its peak.

Civgeneral said:
That is what I am afraid to hear . The only thing that would manage to get the economy back on it's feet in no time comes short of some mirical.
There's no silver bullet for credit contractions. Only time will cure this ill.
As Morgan Freeman put it so eloquently in The Shawshank Redemption, "that’s all it takes, really, pressure, and time".
 
My vote above applies to the whole word - China included. Statistics seem to have become an artistic activity - even more than usual - and that's all I'm saying.
 
That is what I am afraid to hear :(. The only thing that would manage to get the economy back on it's feet in no time comes short of some mirical.

And the only thing to manage to bring us into a real depression, soup line and food shortage style, is a natural disaster.

And natural disasters happen all the time.
 
It's possible that we'll experience even more difficulties after a few quarters of stabilisation (that's where we are now). I'm definetely not in the "it's all over now" camp.

My main concerns are the possibly continuing decline of consumer spending in the US (driving force of international trade until recently) and the creation of new bubbles. Two possible bubbles should be watched closely:
- government debt - who's going to buy all the debt and at which interest?
- stock market: the Dax (German index) for example gained almost 50 % since March. It's the biggest hike ever recorded in such a short period of time (and yes, I missed out on that rally :(). The Dow Jones and other indizes should not be too far behind. Currently, share prises rise sharply when companies report losses and their outlooks remain negative (look at Daimler, for example). That doesn't strike me as very reasonable. Business sentiment in Germany is moderately on the rise but I'm not sure that this is actually met by other indicators like the quantity of new incoming orders. In some sectors of the German economy new incoming orders have been halved y/y...
 
After the crash, the Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) recovered early in 1930, only to reverse and crash again, reaching a low point of the great bear market in 1932. On July 8, 1932 the Dow reached its lowest level of the 20th century and did not return to pre-1929 levels until 23 November 1954.

um... this could be a false rally like in the GD, and BTW I'm pretty damn sure there were soup lines and food shortages then (That's what my Grandfather says)
 
um... this could be a false rally like in the GD, and BTW I'm pretty damn sure there were soup lines and food shortages then (That's what my Grandfather says)

I know. That's what I mean. Right now some are calling this crisis a depression, but it really isn't.. yet. Its not soup lines, yet.
 
I know. That's what I mean. Right now some are calling this crisis a depression, but it really isn't.. yet. Its not soup lines, yet.

sorry about the miss understanding, I figure we should start community/welfare gardens, the people without jobs can work at it and bring home a share of the crops, also other people would help out too and it would be a good community building experience
 
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