Commerce on River-Ice Tiles

Rystic · Aug 5, 2009

With the new patch fixing some old bugs, I thought it was about time to bring this up again. The Illians are suppose to benefit from Ice, but Grassland is still better because of the extra river commerce. Without giving this benefit to Ice, Temples of the Hand lead you to an economic crash: build them in a few river-side cities, you lose around 8 :commerce:

to 20

per turn. Early on, that's devastating. Also, Tundra gives the extra commerce, so why doesn't Ice? The commerce is suppose to be generated from the river (as a trade route), not the tile.

Sephi · Aug 5, 2009

Well, why don't you give the temples of the hand the commerce boost next to rivers?

Rystic · Aug 5, 2009

Sephi said:
Well, why don't you give the temples of the hand the commerce boost next to rivers?

This confuses me. You don't give buildings the commerce boost, you give it to the tiles. A Grassland tile next to a river generates +2 :food:

+1

, but an Ice tile next to a river only generates +2 :food:

(if you're the Illians). If a Temple of the Hand converts five worked Grassland tiles to Ice, you lose five commerce/turn. Enough Temples of the Hand, and you have an economic meltdown.

I made this change awhile back in my modmod, but always advocate for it being moved to the main one.

Sephi · Aug 5, 2009

Rystic said:
You don't give buildings the commerce boost, you give it to the tiles.

You don't give commerce boost to the tiles, you let the buildings give the commerce boost to the tiles (like the Levee does for Production in BTS). That way if you build a Temple of the Hand, the commerce of the city doesn't drop, but for anyone else nothing changes

Mailbox · Aug 5, 2009

Sephi said:
You don't give commerce boost to the tiles, you let the buildings give the commerce boost to the tiles (like the Levee does for Production in BTS). That way if you build a Temple of the Hand, the commerce of the city doesn't drop, but for anyone else nothing changes

Actually that would give forested tiles on riversides 2/1/1, so it's not exactly the same.

Sephi · Aug 5, 2009

good point

Rystic · Aug 5, 2009

Sephi said:
You don't give commerce boost to the tiles, you let the buildings give the commerce boost to the tiles (like the Levee does for Production in BTS). That way if you build a Temple of the Hand, the commerce of the city doesn't drop, but for anyone else nothing changes

I wouldn't imagine it benefiting other players at all. It'd be like a non-riverside desert tile for the Malakim. One commerce isn't as good as a specialist (even a citizen).

ZHONN · Aug 5, 2009

But isn't it obvious why they don't get the trade bonus? To me it would be thematically very unsuitable to them.

What I'd really want for the Illians is +1 movement for infantry units on snow and ice due to them using skis. Ski troops are after all very fast, equal to light cavalry.

admtanaka · Aug 5, 2009

I voted yes...

but I am thinking about it more, and it might give the Illians too big of an advantage. Think about how easily they will be able to terraform their entire territory to a cold equivalent of grasslands.

On the other hand, maybe it could be implemented as a civic unique to the Illians that gives +1 :commerce:

for each snow (or riverside snow) tile, but -30% :culture:

and -2 relationship with all other leaders. Does that make lore sense?

Rystic · Aug 5, 2009

ZHONN said:
But isn't it obvious why they don't get the trade bonus? To me it would be thematically very unsuitable to them.

How is it thematically unsuitable? You trade along a river.

admtanaka said:
I voted yes...

but I am thinking about it more, and it might give the Illians too big of an advantage. Think about how easily they will be able to terraform their entire territory to a cold equivalent of grasslands.

Not their entire territory, just riverside tiles. Every other civ gets +1 :commerce:

from riverside tiles. It's not as much an advantage as it is bringing the Illians up to par with everyone else.

On the other hand, maybe it could be implemented as a civic unique to the Illians that gives +1 for each snow (or riverside snow) tile, but -30% and -2 relationship with all other leaders. Does that make lore sense?

I think adding a civic for it is too much. +1 :commerce:

next to rivers is a very simple fix.

[to_xp]Gekko · Aug 5, 2009

I agree with Rystic, it seems only fair. It's not like they're too good right now anyway, actually quite the opposite.

UNIT 666 · Aug 5, 2009

At first I was going to vote "yes," but now that I've thought about it... They're trying to turn Erebus into a snow cone - there should to be penalties associated with this, just like there is for turning Erebus into a hellish furnace.

Frozen lands should give some other benefit, instead, like somehow strengthening the Frostlings, the Priests of Winter, Auric Ascended, and, of course, Wilboman! And by this, I mean, if a certain amount of the world is covered in frozen lands like ice and tundra, their power should be increased - almost like an affinity.

Besides, the rivers are frozen, they won't be aiding commerce anymore, no matter who is in control of them.

Emptiness · Aug 5, 2009

Since the Illians can farm ice as well as grassland, I don't think its too hard to believe that they could use a frozen river for transportation of goods to market (which is the idea behind the +1 :commerce:

for riverside tiles).

JFSebastian · Aug 5, 2009

Losing 1 gold per tile in an already strong city is a small sacrifice when you consider the potential gains in otherwise poor areas of the map. You'll be transforming otherwise useless cities into little Illian paradises. I guess I feel like it doesn't make too much of a difference either way. I certainly wouldn't be opposed to them getting river commerce. However, thematically, wouldn't they want to freeze the rivers solid?

Fafnir13 · Aug 5, 2009

Eve frozen rivers can give a boost to commerce. The provide a fairly level path which can bypass a lot of rough terrain. Just look at the commerce that takes place over the arctic circle via ice. The game itself even recognizes the rivers as viable trading routes.
Given that, why shouldn't extra commerce be generated? It's not like it will suddenly turn all ice lands into places people will want to settle. All it will do is allow the Illians to play fully to their theme without worrying about tanking their economy.

UNIT 666 · Aug 5, 2009

Frozen rivers are utilized the same by all civilizations - they will connect cities to other cities and provide extra health (I think). The extra commerce represents the ease of transportation. Ice removes it. There is no way to regain the ease of transportation short of thawing the rivers, which is not viable for any civ.

The Illians' only goal is to bring forth Auric's ascension, with little regard for themselves. The Age of Ice was hard on them, just like every other civilization. The only reason the Illians and Doviello weren't downright exterminated was because they were of some use to Mulcarn. Really, the Illians (and Doviello) are not Eskimos, they do not (as far as I am aware) use dogsleds or skis. They are barbaric men; they can find food in frozen wastes because they're adapted to the cold, but it's not any easier to transport it.

Rystic · Aug 5, 2009

UNIT 666 said:
Frozen rivers are utilized the same by all civilizations - they will connect cities to other cities and provide extra health (I think). The extra commerce represents the ease of transportation. Ice removes it. There is no way to regain the ease of transportation short of thawing the rivers, which is not viable for any civ.

It's viable for the Illians. They already eat snow. Suspension of disbelief.

The Illians' only goal is to bring forth Auric's ascension, with little regard for themselves. The Age of Ice was hard on them, just like every other civilization. The only reason the Illians and Doviello weren't downright exterminated was because they were of some use to Mulcarn. Really, the Illians (and Doviello) are not Eskimos, they do not (as far as I am aware) use dogsleds or skis. They are barbaric men; they can find food in frozen wastes because they're adapted to the cold, but it's not any easier to transport it.

This isn't a theme issue, it's a gameplay issue. Being out 20 :commerce:

/turn at turn 100 can kill a good game. Every other tile in the game gives commerce next to rivers.

As the Illians, I look forward to covering the world in ice. But it sucks that if I want an empire, my research slider has to suffer because rivers, for some reason, don't generate money anymore.

Mailbox · Aug 5, 2009

Yeah, one of the main problems is that as the Illians you should be building temples of the hand in each city but right now there are too many sacrifices that must be made in certain cases (Floodplains, river tiles, loss of production, etc.). It's definitely not a game breaking problem but it would be nice if the Illians were rewarded for plunging every city into eternal ice.

HadesScorn · Aug 5, 2009

I can stand to lose the floodplains, and converting plains/hills to their grassland equivalent is a fairly decent tradeoff, but I cannot agree more that at the least the Illians need to gain commerce from river tiles. In my current game I started at the center of the continent, and it is very bizarre that at turn 500 [marathon] I still have not built a single Temple of the Hand. "Yes, please, we would like the God of Winter to return, but if it's not too much of a problem we'd like to keep our tropic and temporal regions this time round, kthnxbye"

MagisterCultuum · Aug 5, 2009

The Illians are not Barbaric, they are quite civilized for men who have for so long been so marginalized to the frozen wastelands.

Under Mulcarn's direct rule, much of the Illian population spent most of their time in cryogenic stasis, to be awakened only when their skills were needed. No Illians would starve because they wouldn't waste food on those whose abilities were not needed at the time. It is possible that that is the way things work again under Auric. Of course, that would be better represented by making the Temple of the Hand prevent starvation regardless of the available food supply than by making Snow give more food, but then they would still do better in warmer climes.

Spoiler :

Commerce on River-Ice Tiles

Should Ice give +1 commerce next to rivers?

Yes, Ice tiles need commerce next to rivers.

No, it's fine the way it is.

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