Obama's critics pick wrong target by attacking the NHS

Agent327

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There are moments when politics and healthcare collide and all that is generated is heat. Absolutely no light.
As opponents turn their fire on President Barack Obama's health plan, a gross mis-characterisation of Britain's tax-funded National Health Service has become the weapon of choice to attack it.
In response, British politicians from Gordon Brown, the prime minister, downward have resorted to the 140 characters available on Twitter to defend it. They imply that all is beautiful in the British NHS, while the US system, with its 47m uninsured, its monumental costs and its capacity to bankrupt individuals, is the one that is "evil" - the word Sarah Palin used to describe the NHS.
This is a debate being driven by blind prejudice on both sides. For a start, what Mr Obama proposes for the US is not an NHS. There is no proposal that a government-backed insurer would run hospitals, as is still largely the case in the UK.
Second, half of the mighty 17 per cent of GDP that the US spends on healthcare - roughly double the level of the UK - is already funded by tax dollars through Medicare, Medicaid and the Veterans Health Administration, which incidentally does run medical facilities and provides some of the best healthcare in the US.
Third, some of the charges levelled against the NHS are plumb wrong: that Teddy Kennedy would not get treatment for his brain tumour in the UK; that the NHS indulges in forced euthanasia; that people over 59 do not get coronary artery bypasses.
Some are true. The UK does have a lower dialysis rate for kidney disease than the US. Some of its cancer survival figures look appreciably worse and quite probably are worse - "probably" for a bunch of reasons that include comparability of the data and the fact that five-year survival figures are by definition what was happening then, not what is happening now. The NHS does indeed have waiting lists for non-emergency surgery, although after a doubling in spending in real terms over the past decade they are now much shorter than they were. And - in contrast to the impression of "socialised medicine" held by some in the US - people can bypass those queues by going private.
About 10 per cent of the UK population has some sort of private insurance, paid for individually or by their employers. The proportion has barely shifted over a decade, implying at least some sort of satisfaction among Britons at what they get.
In response to the worst of the UK performance, Britons can also pluck selective statistics from the US showing it has much poorer overall results for diabetes and a bunch of other chronic conditions where Britain's primary care physicians treat patients well in the community, reducing complications and avoiding costly hospital care.
A balanced view of the two systems might go like this. The US has some of the very best medicine in the world, particularly high-tech medicine, notably in its leading academic health centres, and it has more of it than in the UK.
But study after study shows that, overall, the highest level of health spending in the world does not deliver anything like the best results.
A recent study, for example, looked at deaths in those aged under 75 that are amenable to treatment - for example, infections, cancers, diabetes, heart and vascular disease.
Overall, the US had the worst record among 19 industrialised countries, and the rate at which those deaths had been declining had slowed over the previous five years, against the declines seen in other countries.
The US record was worse than that not just of the UK but, for example, Portugal and Ireland. Martin McKee of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, one of the study's authors, says: "If the US performed as well as the top three countries in the study" - France, Japan and Australia - "there would have been 101,000 fewer deaths per year." There would also have been tens of thousands fewer in the UK had it done the same.
Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses. But rather than presenting a caricature of the NHS, US opponents of reform might ask why the US spends half as much again as almost any other country on healthcare yet still gets overall results that are nowhere near the best. One contributory reason - although only one - is the quality of care received by the uninsured. And that should be the real focus of the debate.

By Nicholas Timmins, Public Policy Editor Published: August 15 2009 03:00 | Last updated: August 15 2009 03:00

(Source: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/451af8fa-8934-11de-b50f-00144feabdc0.html)
 
And also:

In an editorial on July 31, Investor's Business Daily warned of end-of-life counseling in health care reform by saying people like Stephen Hawking "wouldn't have a chance" in the such a system.

"People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless."

In fact, Professor Hawking lives in England, where he has been treated by their National Health Service. And by his own account, it saved his life.

"I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS," he told The Guardian. "I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived."

The Hawking reference in the IBD editorial has since been removed, with this correction added: "This version corrects the original editorial which implied that physicist Stephen Hawking, a professor at the University of Cambridge, did not live in the UK." They don't acknowledge that the NHS has kept Hawking alive there.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/12/stephen-hawking-enters-us_n_257343.html
 
It's not going to matter much unless they, you know, actually come here to try to correct it or something.
 
They've been lying through their teeth the entire time what makes you think they care what Gordon Brown says? Unless he's willing to come here and use his diplomatic immunity to slap some of them around(which I wouldn't necessarily be against) what makes you think they're not going to keep getting away with it?
 
If people call them on it, they won't get away with it.
 
Because of this healthcare debate going trans-atlantic, the BBC have put up a quite interesting healthcare comparison piece on their news site.
 
Because of this healthcare debate going trans-atlantic, the BBC have put up a quite interesting healthcare comparison piece on their news site.

As far as infant mortality rate, yes, the US is higher than others, but some countries don't use the same standards as the US does.

Infant mortality

The number of deaths of children aged under one year of age that occurred in a given year, expressed per 1000 live births.

Note: Some of the international variation in infant and neonatal mortality rates may be due to variations among countries in registering practices of premature infants (whether they are reported as live births or not). In several countries, such as in the United States, Canada and the Nordic countries, very premature babies (with relatively low odds of survival) are registered as live births, which increases mortality rates compared with other countries that do not register them as live births.

http://www.ecosante.fr/index2.php?base=OCDE&langh=ENG&langs=ENG
(Definitions, sources, and methods....then Health status---Mortality....then maternal and infant mortality.....then infant mortality)

Some of the international variation in infant and neonatal mortality rates may be due to variations among countries in the registration of premature deaths of infants (whether they are reported as live births or fetal deaths). In several countries, such as in the United States, Canada, Japan and the Nordic countries, very premature babies with relatively low odds of survival are registered as live births. This increases mortality rates compared with other countries that register them as foetal deaths instead of live births.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/4/36/40321504.pdf

First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country.

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/articles/060924/2healy.htm

the wikipedia entry does try to deny this by claiming all countries adapted the same standard in the "80's or 90's", but the only source is in a book and doesn't explain why the OECD would be making these disclaimers in 2008.

Kudos to the nordic countries (and Canada) who have a lower rate than the US and use the same standards as the US. Is their health care system really that awesome that they have better rates when using more strict standards compared to the other european countries, or perhaps there is more that affects infant mortality rate than just the health care system.

Look at Iceland. It uses the same standards as we do. But it also has a population under 300,000 that is 94 percent homogenous, a mixture of Norse and Celts. Similarly, Finland and Japan do not have the ethnic and cultural diversity of our 300 million citizens. Even factoring in education and income, Chinese-American mothers have lower rates, and African-Americans higher, than the U.S. average. Environment matters as well. Lower infant mortality tracks with fewer teen pregnancies, married as opposed to single mothers, less obesity and smoking, more education, and moms pregnant with babies that they are utterly intent on having. Yet, there are still biological factors that we don't understand that lead to spontaneous premature delivery.

And that is not even getting into aborting 'problem babies'.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566811/Babies-with-minor-disabilities-aborted.html
 
Why did we ally with a socialist country in our fight to bring freedom to Iraq?

:confused:

I am not saying the current US system is perfect or the best, I'm just tired of people throwing stats around acting like the health care system is 100% responsible for health outcomes, and the collection and recording of stats are perfectly comparable between countries.

There is a 10-year life expectancy gap in areas within the UK. Everyone there has access to healthcare, so why is there that big of a difference?

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/leb1008.pdf

Either the NHS is terrible at giving out equal treatment, or (much more likely) lifestyle choices and other things besides the health care system are a larger factor.
 
In several countries, such as in the United States, Canada, Japan and the Nordic countries...

And the US has worse infant mortality than any of those nations.
 
The Americans have never cared for our National Health Service. They say they only have to look at our teeth to know that anything delivering such a service deserves immediate and compassionate euthanasia. Those Americans who live here joke that if they ever get ill, the first thing they will do is get a plane home.
Now, as President Barack Obama seeks to reform healthcare in the United States, the NHS has come in for a fearful bashing. Horror stories – some true, some false – have been splashed about to excite hostility to “socialist medicine”. An American business magazine claimed Professor Stephen Hawking would not have received NHS treatment because of his disability. The reverse, of course, is true. Others speak darkly of “death panels” to decide who will live or die. So strong has been the hysteria and the discrediting of our health system that when Daniel Hannan, the British MEP, gave a critique of the NHS on a right-wing American chat show, both David Cameron and Gordon Brown felt obliged to reaffirm their undying faith in the NHS.
There is much ignorance on both sides of the Atlantic. Most Britons do not realise that the US government already pays for half of all health spending. Nor do Americans yet know what the president is proposing because it has not been decided. And the idea that Mr Obama is trying to set up an American health service like ours is wrong; US policy discussions are concerned with the state provision of health insurance, not with the state provision of health treatment, so emotional comparisons with the NHS are largely irrelevant.
Mr Obama’s problem is twofold. First, one in six Americans is not covered by healthcare insurance. Second, the cost of all US healthcare is frighteningly high at 16% of the economy, compared with 8.4% in Britain and 11% in France. That is the cost now. When you add in the uninsured millions and allow for rocketing numbers of the old and sick, America’s future medical burden is horrifying: one authoritative report says it could bankrupt the country within 50 years. Americans are also suspicious of the president’s figures. The aim of expanding insurance cover while cutting costs is contradictory. Americans fear more tax rises and losing their generally excellent healthcare. Put bluntly, they don’t want to give another damn red cent to Uncle Sam.
While the debate there may seem unsavoury and uncharitable, there is no reason to feel smug here. Our NHS may be cheaper but it is not as good; mortality rates and waiting times are better in America. Above all, Americans have the freedom to choose treatment and doctors. Unlike us, they feel they can control their medical destiny and they instinctively dislike the NHS, which was set up in an era of nationalisation, rationing and the view that doctors and Whitehall knew best.
However, even though Americans spend twice as much as us, their health provision is not twice as good. Although the NHS may be bureaucratic and inefficient, it is a surprise to think it is relatively cost-efficient. Indeed, one recent study showed the United States was the least effective of 19 industrialised nations in providing healthcare for those aged under 75 who were amenable to treatment. That was put down to the inadequate care given to the 47m Americans who are not insured.
Socialised medicine does not have to be like this: European and Scandinavian systems have much better records in treating the sick. They have avoided the monolithic state system in favour of diversity and choice. Britain and America should learn from them.

(Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article6797721.ece)
 
Our NHS may be cheaper but it is not as good; mortality rates and waiting times are better in America. Above all, Americans have the freedom to choose treatment and doctors. ...doctors knew best.
Although the NHS may be bureaucratic and inefficient, it is a surprise to think it is relatively cost-efficient.

(Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article6797721.ece)

We certainly can choose treatment and doctors. Various members of my family have been ill, and one in particular has a number of chronic conditions for which doctors have come and gone, and we have chosen treatments, to her great benefit.

Other European systems might be slightly better, but there's nothing intrinsically wrong with being monolithic.
 
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