revealing resources

It never made sense to me that you have to master the technology to exploit a resource BEFORE you know where (or what) the resource is. Why would you develop a technology to develop a resource that you never saw? So for example Mining should reveal copper, not Bronze Working. You should be able to see Horses at the start and not wait until you develop Animal Husbandry. And so on. You get the idea.

But you don't appreciate what coal is, until you understand how to use it. It would be unrealistic if you plan your city locations from the start because of resources which you (at that stage of the game) have no comprehension for.

This is really an unsolvable problem, because you have know what your scientific research is going to yield. So, whilst I can see the benefit of the idea in the OP, it would distort decision making, as CivMyWay pointed out. I'd think sticking with it the way it is would do the least amount of damage.

After my first REX, waiting for Currency coffers to fill for next push, I like to open WorldBuilder and find some Oil I can park my Scout on until he reveals all oil (Man Named Jed quest). While I'm not a fan of WB cheats, I don't see much other chance for this quest and it gives the scout something to do besides wait for a caravel centuries away. Oil revealed early does still add hammers to the tile.

Camikaze, your Vonnegut quote is awesome. I posted it to my Facebook few weeks ago, and BOY does it get comments!

CivMyWay said:

But you don't appreciate what coal is, until you understand how to use it. It would be unrealistic if you plan your city locations from the start because of resources which you (at that stage of the game) have no comprehension for.

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True, you don't appreciate what coal can be used for until you develop the appropriate technology. But in general at least in ancient times I imagine that research was driven by how to utilize known resources, by trial and error. As in the case of copper: we dig a mine and find this vein of stuff. What can we do with it? How could you invent smelting without having something you've already found to play around with and see what you can do with it? I find it hard to believe that ancient people imagined metal and theorized that it could be refined from something found in the earth by smelting and THEN went and found the raw material. And in the case of horses: it is an insult to common sense that people wouldn't be able to see horses before they figured out how to domesticate them. And at the start we can see cows and pigs before we know how to domesticate them. So maybe my gripe is mostly with ancient times.

Resources in Civ4 need to be revamped. I don't know how but the current system is definitely flawed. Really, some input from military analysts should help figure this problem out.

home office, I don't disagree with what you're saying, I was only talking about it as a game-balance problem. Perhaps an alternative could be a generic symbol displayed on the tile. ("There is something unusual here, but we don't know what it is"). That would only part way solve the problem I mention.

See I think smelting may have originated by them just noticing that certain rocks behave differently when in/near fire. I dont think primitive man had the scientific method to properly discover things...at first it was probably (imo) a fluke, and then they did research.

Or mabye you can only research the technology until you find that resource. YOU won't now where it is but the game will.

CivMyWay said:

Perhaps an alternative could be a generic symbol displayed on the tile. ("There is something unusual here, but we don't know what it is").

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Actually I thought of this too after I made my last post--so something like "here is an unusual rock/mineral" or "here is an unusual animal." Nice idea--I could live with this.

The ancients did know what Uranium was, but they just did not know what to do with it.

classical_hero said:

The ancients did know what Uranium was, but they just did not know what to do with it.

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Interesting - I thought of the example of uranium too - something that would be known or "seen" much earlier in history than technology would allow it to be exploited for nuclear power. So I think this is consistent with CivMyWay's idea of a generic resource label - "here is an unusual rock/mineral." If not within the borders of your existing cities, you might be inclined to found a new city to get this "unusual rock/mineral" even though not yet knowing what it is - knowing it is there and hoping/believing that it will prove useful some day. Your decision whether or not to found your new city to include this as yet unknown resource would be an indication of your game strategy - are you seeking short-term victory by exploiting known resources and disregarding or downplaying the importance of later techs - or are you seeking long-term victory and wish to assure that you will have access to resources that you as yet don't understand because they will probably prove useful/critical in future ages?

P. S. This is where the idea of having colonies to secure resources as in earlier versions would be a good idea to bring back. Maybe it's not worth founding a city to secure an as yet unknown resource - but what if we only had to invest in a colony just in case this curious item proves important later?

Well, what about making strategic resources appear as one resource at the start, and then change to its true form when the proper tech is researched?

Copper will appear as a Gold resource until Bronze Working is discovered.
Iron will appear as Silver until Iron Working (though this would require Silver to be more widely distributed to be convincing).
Horses will appear as Cows until Animal Husbandry.
Aluminum appears as Gems until Industrialism (because Aluminum occurs in nature in a mineral form).
Uranium appears as Silver until Iron Working, and Iron until Physics.
Coal and Oil... I'm not sure how to disguise those.

Ramesses said:

Well, what about making strategic resources appear as one resource at the start, and then change to its true form when the proper tech is researched?

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Wow this would be quite a twist - so when I built a mine on what I thought was Gold I would find out it isn't when I don't get the expected benefit?

Upon further reflection maybe part of my gripe is a tech tree problem with respect to metals in ancient times. I agree that Mining should be needed to reveal copper or iron (of course maybe that's wrong too as ancients probably stumbled upon these materials from deposits on the surface and then stumbled upon the fact that something strange happened when they were placed in/near fire as CivMyWay describes-anyway I'll press on). Maybe at this point all rocks/minerals are revealed with a generic resource symbol. Then between Mining and Bronze Working or Iron Working there should be Smelting. When Smelting is mastered, copper and iron would be revealed with specific symbols so we know what we have and can progress to either Bronze Working or Iron Working (or both if we're lucky) - i.e., using the known material(s) to make tools and weapons.

And how about a tech parallel to Animal Husbandry called Horse Taming? Horses would be visible at the beginning along with cows and pigs, and while Animal Husbandry allows us to use cows and pigs as a more reliable source of food, Horse Taming allows us to use horses as a source of power - so you would have to invent Wheel and also master Horse Taming in order to build Chariots. Of course Horseback Riding would follow Horse Taming.

Horses use to be able to be seen at the beginning. One of the vanilla patches changed that, probably because they were the only resource that unlocked military units that could be seen from the start.

The way it is now is the best way I can think of to have it. Remember: you're not supposed to be able to plan your cities based on late-game resources. There should be a risk that you will have to demolish a town because of the discovery of oil (or some other resource).

deanej said:

Remember: you're not supposed to be able to plan your cities based on late-game resources.

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I think I agree with this the more I think about it. So I withdraw my comments about founding cities (or colonies) to get as yet unknown resources.

But I stand by my comments about the tech tree problems in ancient times re: metals and horses.

I like the idea of placing a generic marker on mineral resources from the mining tech onwards, although oil might be a bit different. I think it would still have to be seen as oil itself, because IIRC people in ancient times didn't know of its existence, and placing a generic marker on it from an arbitrary point would be a pretty obvious giveaway. Perhaps there should be some generic markers for resources that actually turn out to be nothing, here or there, because otherwise you can plan from the beginning to get a city near somewhere with resources even without knowing what they are, secure in the knowledge that there will be something of value there. Random generic markers that result in nothing would stop this certainty, and therefore abuse, of the system.

There is actually a solution which I thought of a while ago, but then forgot of until last night, and it was how I was planning on doing it. It's not perfect, but I think will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Each time you step on a tile with a resource/bonus you have a percentage chance of discovering it. This will be say a base 10% chance, with techs, civ-level or unit-level enhancements which increase the odds. (After all, a tile is a big area, and you aren't necessarily going to stumble on it immediately). I think that city-radius tiles would naturally be uncovered by being worked (with the same or higher chance per turn). Therefore you are reasonably unlikely to find something outside your territory unless its on a commonly tredded path. Workers performing actions on a tile would also increase the odds.

Once discovered, it of course stays discovered. So you can discover coal, before you have the techs to use it. There are two branches here, and I haven't decided which way to go:
* Simple - you can't mine it at all, until you have the proper techs
* Advanced - you can mine it BUT only under a trade agreement where the party you are trading with:
- has the required techs
- where their worker unit builds the mine (which will require a special access agreement).
- ALL coal must be traded to them (you cannot stockpile a resource you have no value of).
- If the trade agreement is broken for some reason, then the mine is abandoned (no more mining), but the infrastructure remains there until you have the required techs, or can establish trade for the resource with another civ with the required tech.

Resources have a quantity, which decreases over time. When you first discover a resource you will not know how much there is of it (which requires a specialist or upgraded worker to investigate the tile. Then, before modern times there will be an error margin applied, so you don't know exactly how much of a resource you have). The ones you see on tiles will be surface and shallow-crust level resources.

In later-game, specialist units (or upgraded workers) will be able to do core samples testing for resources in a below-surface level. (Automated method) It is possible for a surface tile to have no resource (e.g. coal) but for a lower level to have it.

deanej said:

Remember: you're not supposed to be able to plan your cities based on late-game resources.

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That's what I hate about playing the huge Earth map because resources are always known and limited such as that of aluminium. I try to have cities settle in their appropriate geographical location but those resources just limit me on where I can build them.