Welcome to Rhye's and Fall of the Greek World

Rhye's and Fall of the Greek World is the sequel of Greek World, one of the mods that shipped with Civilization IV.
Rather than just an update to BTS, this is a project which aim is a full revision of the original mod, merging it with the RFC features.

Greek World was a pure scenario: set in 600BC, a turning point of Ancient History. It featured for the first time minor civs, city renamings and a couple of hidden civ respawns.
Rhye's and Fall of the Greek World will cover instead 3000BC to 600AD...rise and fall of civilizations of the Ancient Mediterranean.


Some have pointed out that RFC was developed under "Rhyetatorship", that is, decisions are made by one person (me) instead of democratically.
In the development of RFGW (Rhye's and Fall of the Greek World), my intention is to switch to a sort of constitutional monarchy: I'll keep making the key decisions in the first phases, but later assign part of responibilities to others, in order to perform a gradual dismissal.

You can keep track, in detail, of the project status here:
http://rhye.civfanatics.net/wiki/index.php?title=Rhye's_and_Fall_of_the_Greek_World_Project_status

Now that Rhyes and Fall Modsmods sub-forum is increasingly occupied by RFC-I and you've started a new one for RFC-GW, can we have our own sub-forum for RFC Europe now please?

I was already thinking about it. Would you prefer a forum on your own, or share it with RFC: I, thus labelling the forum "Total conversions" or something like that?

P.S. This is OFF TOPIC here!

Rhye said:

I was already thinking about it. Would you prefer a forum on your own, or share it with RFC: I, thus labelling the forum "Total conversions" or something like that?

P.S. This is OFF TOPIC here!

Click to expand...

I know its OT but I just had to ask you while you're online. Our own forum would be preferable, if that's possible, as our modders are back, work is proceeding and we'll be issuing Beta1 very soon now, I think.

Hi Rhye. I'm here to help in all you need.

Perhaps RFC:E will get it's own forum once the first beta is released? (It will be more appealing to newcomers to the modmod as well).

Returning somewhat more to topic:

Rhye said:

Some have pointed out that RFC was developed under "Rhyetatorship", that is, decisions are made by one person (me) instead of democratically.
In the development of RFGW (Rhye's and Fall of the Greek World), my intention is to switch to a sort of constitutional monarchy: I'll keep making the key decisions in the first phases, but later assign part of responibilities to others, in order to perform a gradual dismissal.

Click to expand...

Dear Sir,

We feel we must point out that British paliament will surely disagree with your concept of constitutional monarchy.

Sincerely,

Elizabeth.


PS We personally see no objection to your enlightened despotism.

JEELEN said:

Returning somewhat more to topic:


Dear Sir,

We feel we must point out that British paliament will surely disagree with your concept of constitutional monarchy.

Sincerely,

Elizabeth.


PS We personally see no objection to your enlightened despotism.

Click to expand...

All hail the his majesty the Rhyetator, defender of the faith, sole monarch of the united RFC.

Rhye, would you mind if we opened our own threads? I propose a link thread, for historical articles and maps. I have a ton of them.

Also, don't you think 600 AD is a really late ending? I mean by 100 AD alone Rome controlled almost all of its historical lands.

I think the point is that 600AD allows for the barbarian invasions and the beginning of the Dark Ages.

But the game seems like if it follows historically, from 100 AD onwards, it'd be Rome vs. Persia.

ZachScape said:

But the game seems like if it follows historically, from 100 AD onwards, it'd be Rome vs. Persia.

Click to expand...

the hard part comes with barbarian invasions

I applaud the decision Rhye, let's hope it will work out, you know with the people in here I have my doubts ;-)

There's actually not much more to say in here. WIll it be a total conversion like with a new tech tree but one that follows the rules of the normal game. Like: the same tech tree but just with the techs renamed so that the game plays just like normal civilization but in an ancient feeling, of course some stuff like the nuclear bomb needs to be taken out ;-)

Or will you do a whole new tech tree (which then requires a new learning curve for the casual player)?

What do you mean? To code or to play?

to play. It's just a random thought that I hadn't really worked out yet. So give me time to reformulate:

We all have played normal civilization. It seems to me that a part of the success of Rhyes and Fall of Civilization is that it only changed the absolute minimum. Unique Powers for example were not there from the beginning, when they were introduced, most players had to accustom themselves to it, later on it seems natural. What I am trying to say the Changes of RFC seem natural without changing the core of the game.

So in comparison to other mods, it's easier to get into, but hard to master. This is a trait all computer games go for ;-) I remember for example the scenario in the third civ3 expansion, the ancient one, very similar to this scenario. It had a whole new tech tree and you really had time to get into it. To learn the new tech tree and which is were and what is the fastest way to do it. This can be positive, hell yeah. it's probably something everyone wants (and the tech tree is better accustomed).

But I think, the other way is also worth a try, just some random brainstorming idea of mine, I am not angry if you think it's bad ;-)

Allow me to say I really look forward to this mod ^_^

mitsho said:

Will it use the same tech tree with the techs renamed, or do a whole new tech tree?

Click to expand...

^ This. In my opinion the techs/civics/buildings/units are the most important design elements.

I think the factor that imposes the strongest constraint on these things is the number of turns it takes to conquer the majority of the map, achieving a Domination-style victory. I think it should be a goal to allow that kind of victory.

Assuming this mod does not radically redesign the Civ 4 combat and movement mechanics, I think that requires at least 500 turns.
* I think the 175 turns in Greek World is far too few. I could just barely conquer Persia as Greece in that time.
* When I ported Greek World to BTS 3.17 (my mod "Hecataea"), 500 turns worked OK in my tests. But that was starting with existing cities and armies, like in Greek World.
* You could collect more data by running autorun tests, using the map with the default tech tree and Aggressive AI, on Normal or Epic. I think with Aggressive AI the AI would sometimes win Domination, and in those cases you could see how many turns it took. This could also be a useful way to begin balancing the terrain on the map.

If you accept the premise that you need to fill 500-750 turns of game play, you have to give the player something to do every turn. I think that means you will need a full-sized tech tree. If you make the tech tree smaller, then it will take too many turns to research the next tech, and player decisions become too unbalanced in favor of researching some intermediate military tech (such as catapults) and then turning off research. Many Civ 4 mods have make that kind of design mistake.

Greek World (175 turns, Normal build speed, 1/5 research speed) is fun because of the novelty (it's my favorite mod for any version of Civ 4) but it's not strategically deep or replayable. There aren't many things to research, and you finish the buildings quickly and run out of build choices.

In Hecataea I tried to make it a little more replayable by increasing it to 500 turns (so that the player or an AI can get Domination), Epic build speed, 1/3 research speed (= half the speed of Epic), and doubling the number of techs you have time to research (extending it through the Renaissance) -- but the strategic depth is still limited because techs come too slowly compared to builds.

In my opinion it is very difficult to design a balanced and replayable Civ 4 tech tree. I don't think any mod has really achieved it.

You can try the design concept of renaming all the abilities in the default tech tree, but it's easy to unbalance things that way. For example if you take out air units, you break 20 other things. The ecosystem is very delicate.

Rhye said:

the hard part comes with barbarian invasions

Click to expand...

It also depends on other civilizations that are included. Can you hold the Romans off as the Greeks? Can Egypt maintain its independence and avoid becoming a vassal? What about Sythia, Babylon, and the Indus? What if Carthage beat the Romans?

600 is as good as any end date. It reflects the rise of medieval civs. You could also go with 500, which is when RFC Europe starts, or pick a barbarian sacking of Rome (410, or 455) or go with the traditional end date of the western roman empire of 476.

At any rate, going beyond 476 seems like a good idea, because it allows for some interaction with byzantine spawning, and having to deal with later barbarian incursions.

600 AD is a good end date because it basically goes to the beginning of the Dark Ages and the Rise of Medieval Europe, which RFC Europe covers. I don't really support an ending with the sacking of Rome because then it leaves to little time for Byzantium.

But the part I don't get is a 500 year age where no new civs spawn. This is the way I see it in my mind. I know/ at least hope Rome wont be a superpower every game, depends on a lot of factors. But in RL, it was. With most of the civs minus Byzantium spawning before Rome, what will that dry spell look like?