Help Winner develop his alternate history mini-project

Winner

Diverse in Unity
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Brno -> Czech rep. >>European Union
Moved from the Altered Maps thread.

I am thinking about expanding on this idea. I started with imagining how the post-WW2 Czechia might look like, but I'd like others to contribute and do the same with other European countries.

I am especially interested in post-war developments in Germany, both Polands, Greece, Sweden and Finland, but any contribution is welcome.

Use the map and my brief summary of the historical bacground as a guideline.

The map:
altercoldwar.png




Background:


Alternate Cold War – Background

POD: Eisenhower dies in a road accident in July, 1944.


V-E Day

Eisenhower’s successor is not so cautious and changes allied tactics in Europe towards more blitzkrieg-like operations. Therefore when the Allies break out of Normandy in August, the allied advance is much quicker and bolder than it was in our timeline. Instead of wasting time massacring German armies in Falaise pocket and laying siege to coastal towns in Britanny, the allied divisions advance rapidly into the French interior and towards the Low Countries and Germany itself. Field Marshal Montgomery successfully secures Scheldt Estuary and liberates Antwerp, thus opening the harbor to Allied shipping. This proves to be a crucial point in the Allied campaign, as the emerging logistical problems are thus greatly mitigated and the Allied advance can continue.

In September, Omar Bradely’s 12th Army Group penetrates through Saarland into Germany and together with Montgomery’s 21st Army Group encircles the remnants of Westheer in the so-called Ruhr Pocket. At that point, no relevant German forces can oppose the allied thrust towards Berlin.

Meanwhile, Hitler is stunned by the speed of the allied advance into his Third Reich and the apparent willingness of his armies to surrender to the Allies the moment their communication lines with his headquarters are severed. He becomes obsessed with the developments in the West and rapidly loses interest in other theatres. In a rare stroke of common sense, he appoints Field Marshal Erich von Manstein, whom he sacked as commander of the Army Group South only 4 months earlier, as Oberbefehlshaber Ost (Supreme Commander East) and transfers Walther Model to the West to lead a hopeless defense against the Allies. Manstein promptly reorganizes the battered German armies and begins to apply his plan for a “flexible defense” on the Eastern front.

Stalin is also shocked by the success of the Allies. Fearing that the Westerners could defeat Germany on their own thus denying him the spoils of victory, he orders an immediate general offensive despite the objections of his field commanders, who argue that the Red Army needs to improve the bad supply situation before it can launch another offensive. Stalin remains adamant and so the Red Army begins its hastily prepared offensive across the Vistula in late September, 1944. It is here where von Manstein achieves his last and greatest victory. The Soviets, who are not aware of the major change of German tactics on the Eastern Front, expect the Germans to stand firm and refuse to pull back as it was common when Hitler was in command and Manstein uses their mistake to his advantage. First he feigns a breakup of German defenses along Vistula, but then he launches a brilliant counter-offensive during which he manages to encircle Soviet spearheads on the wrong side of the river. In other places, German forces pull off a fighting retreat and as a result the German lines along the Vistula are now stronger than ever before. Soviet autumn offensive thus completely fails and the Soviets suffer horrendous casualties, especially among their best units which were spearheading the attack.

Furious Stalin responds by sacking Zhukov who he (unfairly) blames for the disaster and orders Ivan Konev to prepare another offensive. Konev manages to persuade Stalin that the Vistula Line is currently impregnable, but suggests an acceptable alternative: a major push through Romania, Hungary and the Balkans which could flank the German defenses in Poland. Stalin agrees and the offensive begins in October. Despite initial heavy losses in Bessarabia, the Red Army break through and Romania soon surrenders, followed by Bulgaria. However, Manstein manages to save most of German armies by a general withdrawal to Hungary and Slovakia where they form another defensive line blocking the Soviet advance into Germany.

At the same time, Anglo-American armies encircle Berlin. Hitler is shot dead a day later by a disgruntled officer when he refuses to allow the surrender of the city and Berlin is declared an open city by its military commander soon afterwards. Hermann Göring assumes the role of the Führer of the Third Reich, but he is powerless to stop further allied advance across Germany. American armies liberate Bohemia and enter Poland and Austria by early November. German forces along Vistula hold their ground to the very last moment and only surrender to the Americans and the British when they appear on the horizon. The Soviets on the other side of the river are powerless to intervene.

WW2 in Europe finally ends on 17th of November, 1944, when Göring issues a general surrender order to all German forces. Red Army hastily moves to occupy the remaining parts of Hungary, Yugoslavia and Slovakia, while German soldiers flee west to surrender to the allied forces. In Europe, an uneasy peace begins.


Cold War begins

The conflict later known as the Cold War erupts almost immediately after the German capitulation. Stalin immediately demands that the Allies pull back to Elbe and allow the Soviet Union to occupy its own zone in Germany. The Allies refuse arguing that the Soviet forces didn’t enter Germany proper (except East Prussia) and that the Allied armies are well capable of occupying Germany without Soviet assistance. Moreover, the Polish government now reigning over the Allied-controlled Poland refuses to allow the Soviets (who have severed diplomatic relations with it following the uncovering of the Katyn massacre) any military transfer. Although this means little as the Polish government relies on the Allies and their armies, the Polish refusal is used as an argument against the Soviet demand for their own occupation zone in Germany.

Feeling betrayed, Stalin proclaims that he will no longer adhere to any previous agreements made with the Western Allies. As retaliation to what he perceives as an unforgivable injustice after all the sacrifices the Soviet people have made in WW2, he tightens his rule over Soviet “liberated” countries in Central Europe and the Balkans. In Poland, a Communist interim government is established, but pre-war Eastern Poland is annexed to the USSR. Czechoslovakia is definitely split when the USSR annexes Ruthenia and establishes a puppet Communist government in Slovakia, ironically a former puppet of Nazi Germany. Similar development takes place in Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and even Finland, which doesn’t escape sovietization this time as Stalin is definitely not in a forgiving mood. In Greece, a brutal civil war erupts between competing partisan groups and the Soviets send massive amount of weapons and supplies to the Greek Communists, who quickly overrun most of the country. Non-communists are forced to flee mainland Greece and most islands, but they manage to fortify themselves in Crete, Rhodos and Cyprus, previously held by the British. And so in just two years following the V-E day, the USSR asserts firm control over the Eastern part of the Continent. Later, Winston Churchill during his address to the British public famously says:

“From Elbing in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic an "iron curtain" has descended across the Continent. Behind that line lie all the capitals of the ancient states of Central and Eastern Europe. Warsaw, Athens, Helsinki, Budapest, Belgrade, Bucharest and Sofia; all these famous cities and the populations around them lie in what I must call the Soviet sphere, and all are subject, in one form or another, not only to Soviet influence but to a very high and in some cases increasing measure of control from Moscow.”​

The West is forced to respond and in 1948, an alliance of Western democracies is formed around the United States – the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. In the next 20 years, almost all European countries join it, with the exception of Ireland, Switzerland and Austria which decide to remain neutral. Soviet answer to NATO, the Warsaw Pact, is created in 1949 in Eastern Warsaw, the capital of the newly proclaimed People’s Republic of Poland. A barrier of concrete and barbed wire is erected on the eastern bank of Vistula, the famous Warsaw Wall separating Eastern Poland from its Western counterpart now called the Republic of Poland. Later it becomes one of the most famous symbols of the Cold War.

With the advent of nuclear weapons and their first use against Japan in 1945, the world is plunged into a long and bitter ideological conflict which often threatens to engulf the whole world in nuclear fire. Large armies stand opposing each other on the Vistula, Soviet navy operating from Greek bases shadows the Western fleets in the Mediterranean, jet bombers patrol over the Arctic and ever growing number of nuclear missiles are aimed at the enemy targets. Only Gods know if this “Cold War” stays cold...

---

+ my responses to questions and a short description of post-war Czechia:

3) Czech Rep. renamed to Czech Federal Republic (Česká Spolková Republika - ČSR [It's a dig against the commie Slovakia since the abbreviation is the same as the abbreviation of former Czechoslovakia]; Bundesrepublik Böhmen in German). This is meant to explain the post-war development in the Czech lands. Instead of getting rid of the Germans, the leadership was forced by circumstances to seek such a constitutional solution that would prevent a repetition of the Sudetenland crisis. In the end, a federal model was adopted and Bohemia/Moravia were divided into 9 federal states (spolkové země, bundesländer) + the capital Prague district. Three states are predominantly German, three are predominantly Czech and three are mixed. Both languages are official and large effort was made by the authorities to make the population largely bilingual, with partial success (mostly in the mixed states and bigger cities). 27 years after the V-E day, relations between the two nations are mostly without problems, though critics say that instead of living together, Czechs and Germans live alongside each other and mostly mind their own business. Still shamed by their war-era collaboration with the Nazis, talking about a possible secession is a taboo among the Germans in C.F.R. The country is sometimes called "the Belgium of Central Europe" by foreign observers.
 
Reply from the map thread:

How come the Germans call it Bohemian while everyone else calls it Czech?

Well, being called "Bohemian" doesn't provoke the Germans as much as being called "Czech". It was chosen as a compromise in order to make the Germans feel more at home, even though it's a bit ludicrous. In Czech, "Bohemia" is called "Čechy" so the translation of "Česká spolková republika" into German as "Bundesrepublik Böhmen" is acceptable.

It is a bit discriminatory against Moravia, but few people actually care.
 
I'll tell you one thing, I see the USSR doing a lot more to further its influence in Asia than IOTL
 
I'll tell you one thing, I see the USSR doing a lot more to further its influence in Asia than IOTL

Definitely. I already mentioned that it was more vigorous in intervening in the Chinese civil war (the commies won a year earlier than in OTL and Taiwan is not independent). Korea is united under communist rule and Japan is divided with North Japan being communist (an OTL Korea-like situation).

Does anybody want to make a map? :mischief:
 
Quote: I just noticed thee northern Corridor.

Most people living in the northern former Prussian lands were poles, even during German rule. Sure the cities had german population, but the countryside was all majority Polish. I'm assuming postwar Germans in northern Polish areas will migrate to Germany/New World. Most of Silesia was mixed German and Polish. I think Poland should gain more land in southern German Silesia to, atleast so we get our Coal mines back. I assume Poznan in Polish to right?(can't tell on map)

Also, without post German areas, where will the soviets put all those poles living in former Polish lands in Vilnius, Minsk, Lwow, and in between?

/Quote

From the other thread.
 
I just noticed thee northern Corridor.

Most people living in the northern former Prussian lands were poles, even during German rule. Sure the cities had german population, but the countryside was all majority Polish. I'm assuming postwar Germans in northern Polish areas will migrate to Germany/New World. Most of Silesia was mixed German and Polish. I think Poland should gain more land in southern German Silesia to, atleast so we get our Coal mines back. I assume Poznan in Polish to right?(can't tell on map)

West Poland got the areas of eastern Silesie where plebiscites were held after WW1. Other areas were clearly inhabited by German majority, so there was no reason to give it to Poland.

Germany's eastern borders are thus mostly the same as they were in 1936, minus East Prussia and parts of Silesia. So yes, Poznan is Polish.

Also, without post German areas, where will the soviets put all those poles living in former Polish lands in Vilnius, Minsk, Lwow, and in between?

That's what Eastern Poland is for :D Plenty of space for few million "Poles". P.R.o.P.'s main problem is the lack of industry - I assume heavy industry was rapidly being developed after the war, mostly around Krakow and East Warsaw.
 
I think your confusing Silesians with Germans. Silesians might've been German speaking, but they wanted to be a part of Poland. (Silesian Uprisings) And yes areas around Wroclaw were majority German, but areas in Central Silesia were mixed German, Silesian(speaking both Germanic and Slavic.. unclear on their ancestry, most wanted to be Polish following WWI) and Poles. It's unclear to whom the areas should've went to, but follownig WWII, the migration of Germans away from Silesia and the fact that allies wanted Germany to be weaker... It leads me to believe that that area would be Polish owned.

Besides the Coal Mines are very important, and the Allies didn't want a stronger Germany right? I find it unrealistic because in real life, Germany was split into two, and no longer a threat. But if Germany stayed a whole, than I think the Allies would sense a very German dominated future.

I think it would be in England's and France's best interest to 'Neuter' Germany.

That's what Eastern Poland is for Plenty of space for few million "Poles". P.R.o.P.'s main problem is the lack of industry - I assume heavy industry was rapidly being developed after the war, mostly around Krakow and East Warsaw.

How will that work out? The USSR is going to try to go for global domination by making their second biggest Warsaw Pact country an overpopulated craphhole? :rolleyes:

Atleast this means Eastern Poland will finally get it's own port. :lol:
 
I think your confusing Silesians with Germans. Silesians might've been German speaking, but they wanted to be a part of Poland.

Citation needed. I don't accept national myths as facts. German speaking population in German Silesia would hardly want to join Poland after WW2 :lol:

(Silesian Uprisings) And yes areas around Wroclaw were majority German, but areas in Central Silesia were mixed German, Silesian(speaking both Germanic and Slavic.. unclear on their ancestry, most wanted to be Polish following WWI) and Poles. It's unclear to whom the areas should've went to, but follownig WWII, the migration of Germans away from Silesia and the fact that allies wanted Germany to be weaker... It leads me to believe that that area would be Polish owned.

There was no large-scale ethnic cleansing of Germans in this timeline. They had no reason to flee, so Silesia remained thoroughly German-speaking. As such, there was no justification for handing it over to Poland. Only Polish majority areas were given to Western Poland as a form of reparation (plus Danzig, for symbolic reasons).

Besides the Coal Mines are very important, and the Allies didn't want a stronger Germany right? I find it unrealistic because in real life, Germany was split into two, and no longer a threat. But if Germany stayed a whole, than I think the Allies would sense a very German dominated future.

I think it would be in England's and France's best interest to 'Neuter' Germany.

That's why I invited others to help me with post-war German history. What you say is true - undivided Germany would be too strong in they eyes of other European countries, so I think its occupation ended later than in OTL and it also didn't re-militarize so fast as in OTL. I'd be glad if somehow could find a realistic justification for that.

How will that work out? The USSR is going to try to go for global domination by making their second biggest Warsaw Pact country an overpopulated craphhole? :rolleyes:

Eastern Poland is hardly overpopulated, in fact it needed more people after the war with all the losses it suffered and the number of Poles who emigrated to Western Poland before the iron curtain was constructed along the Vistula. The number of "Poles" repatriated from the Soviet annexed parts of Belarus and Ukraine wasn't that big.

Atleast this means Eastern Poland will finally get it's own port. :lol:

Yes, they have it :)
 
Definitely. I already mentioned that it was more vigorous in intervening in the Chinese civil war (the commies won a year earlier than in OTL and Taiwan is not independent). Korea is united under communist rule and Japan is divided with North Japan being communist (an OTL Korea-like situation).

Does anybody want to make a map? :mischief:

Ah, a split Japan, very interesting...

Might I suggest the UK being very reluctant to let India go lest it should fall under Soviet or Chinese influence?
 
I think that Eastern Poland and Finland would be incorporated to USSR. Poland as part of Soviet Ukraine and Soviet Belarus and Finland would be Soviet republic itself. But It wouldnt be that fun:)
 
Ah, a split Japan, very interesting...

I don't think they captured much of it though. Hokkaido and the northernmost parts of Honshu might be realisticly seized by the Soviets, but I doubt they could get to Tokyo.

US won by using nukes as it did in OTL and Japan surrendered to the US only - there was some fighting between Soviet and Japanese forces in the North even as the US occupation forces were landing in Japan.

It might look like this, although without the non-US presence in the South.

300px-Divided_Japan.png


Might I suggest the UK being very reluctant to let India go lest it should fall under Soviet or Chinese influence?

I am totally and completely undecided as to what happens to South Asia. If anybody wants to expand on that, I'll be delighted :)
 
I wouldn't have any big details, but I think in these circumstances the UK would resist letting India go for quite a bit longer, possible resulting in a real civil war in India, maybe dragging into the mid-50s. In fact... India could well be an early Vietnam. Just imagine that! UK eventually pulls out, USSR and Chinese influence grows, US decided it will support a pro-western government, ginormous guerilla war... poptential for a whole other side-story there
 
Are Spain and Portugal the same as in our timeline here?
 
I think that Eastern Poland and Finland would be incorporated to USSR. Poland as part of Soviet Ukraine and Soviet Belarus and Finland would be Soviet republic itself. But It wouldnt be that fun:)

Soviets needed to have "independent" Polish commie state which would claim the rest of Poland, which was the main reason why they didn't annex eastern Poland (that, and the opposition from ethnic Poles would be too much of a burden).

As for Finland, Stalin was content with making it communist; I think he was afraid of a protracted guerilla warfare in Finland and he still remembred how costly the victory over Finland was.

Are Spain and Portugal the same as in our timeline here?

Honestly, I didn't think that much about it - they were neutral in the war, so the alternate outcome didn't affect them that much. Most probably they are pretty similar to OTL.

You're welcome to write something about their war/post-war history, as you certainly know the history of the countries better than I do :)
 
What do you want to know about Sweden? And to some extent Finland (I'll have a crack at it)?
:)

The way I see your scenario, nothing in it really changes things for these two countries. If anything a more successful western Alliance down in Europe sets things up so that Sweden has even less reason to go for the NATO option, while Finland if anything is in a better position to fight off any Soviet attempt at taking them over, as they historically did through the victory at Tali-Ihantala in 1944. For Finland the end result would probably still be the kind of separate peace they got with the Soviet Union anyway.

Unless of course there's a specific provision that the Soviets are to be more successful against Finland than they historically were?;)

Since that seems to be the case here (not sure why), with a Soviet puppet Finland next door, Sweden is likely to head for NATO membership, as long ad Denmark and Norway as they historically did rejects the idea of a Nordic defensive alliance.
 
That's why I invited others to help me with post-war German history. What you say is true - undivided Germany would be too strong in they eyes of other European countries, so I think its occupation ended later than in OTL and it also didn't re-militarize so fast as in OTL. I'd be glad if somehow could find a realistic justification for that.

The justification would probably the same as in real life: A strong Germany is needed against the soviet threat. As the cold war started earlier in your timeline, the French and British might be convinced of that. I would think the Americans would remind the French of the Versaille treaty disaster and force them to accept a large Germany. I would think the integration of European heavy industry via ECSC would happen even sooner. I also think, the foundation of the German state would be a bit later.

This Germany would be much more dominated by the north than the real one. I would think the Allies would try hard to break up Prussia and try to put emphasis on the regional differences in the north. Bavaria would be the loser in this timeline. They would have no refugee influx and the politics would be dominated by the non-catholic north. They would stay even more rural than they are now and wouldn't have the political influence they have now.
 
Honestly, I didn't think that much about it - they were neutral in the war, so the alternate outcome didn't affect them that much. Most probably they are pretty similar to OTL.

You're welcome to write something about their war/post-war history, as you certainly know the history of the countries better than I do :)

If they're pretty similar to real life, Spain would still be ruled by Franco, and would probably not be in NATO by 1970. They joined the real NATO in 1982, so I don't see why they should do this earlier here, especially as NATO is stronger here. There is the possibility of the NATO intervening in Spain and forcing Franco to resign earlier, but you'd have to explain that in your timeline.
 
The justification would probably the same as in real life: A strong Germany is needed against the soviet threat. As the cold war started earlier in your timeline, the French and British might be convinced of that. I would think the Americans would remind the French of the Versaille treaty disaster and force them to accept a large Germany. I would think the integration of European heavy industry via ECSC would happen even sooner. I also think, the foundation of the German state would be a bit later.

This Germany would be much more dominated by the north than the real one. I would think the Allies would try hard to break up Prussia and try to put emphasis on the regional differences in the north. Bavaria would be the loser in this timeline. They would have no refugee influx and the politics would be dominated by the non-catholic north. They would stay even more rural than they are now and wouldn't have the political influence they have now.

Speaking of which, Winner, you still didn't answer this:

The Norther Corridor was Majority Polish in most rural areas, It was mostly Germans living in the city areas. You made the Tri-City (Gdansk, Gdynia, Sopot) Polish. I would imaging the Germans will migrate out of the Tri City to other parts of Germany or the Americas.

Thus we will end up with a Polish Dominated, German owned Northern Corridor.
 
Meh, this scenario is useless without involving also the Middle East...
 
Mhm.

I expect Varwnos would be better at talking about the Greek Civil War, but a vague outline would probably involve the EAM not splitting over reconciliation in late 1944 and going all out all over the country in the Dekemvriana. British internal politics play a large role here in determining whether the royalists and republicans lose in 1945 or 1946. Then postwar the EAM will be purged by the KKE and the ELAS will form the basis of a Greek state army.
 
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