Air units that are actual units; a model

rysmiel

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I've said more than once that the Civ 3/4 "mission" model for air units is a lot less appealing to me than air units that behave as actual units, and the general response seems to be that people find the Civ 1/2 model air units that run out of fuel and crash if not back in a city every turn or two frustrating.

A proposal for a Civ 5 air unit model avoiding both of those issues.

Positing that air units that stay in the air turn after turn are no more of a "realism" problem than triremes that spend multiple centuries at sea.

Air units fall into a handful of basic categories.

Fighter-type units have attack and defense values against other air units, increasing over time. They can neither attack nor be attacked by regular ground units.

Bomber-type units have (generally lower) attack and defence values against other air units. They also have Civ3-type bombard functionality including lethal bombard against ground units; they can do damage or not do damage but will not take any damage from the act of bombing. Completing a bomb run uses up all a bomber's remaining movement points.

Combined fighter-bomber functionality can be modelled by adjusting attack and defence values accordingly.

Unarmed scout-type air units are also a possibility, having a one-tile or in later game two-tile range of vision on the ground beneath them.

The other model, for units that fly low and engage ground units in actual combat while in flight rather than bombardment, is of ones that land at the end of every turn, in whatever square they happen to be in, or can choose to do so before using all movement points. They count as air units in your turn and ground units in everyone else's (like the gliders in C-evo). I see this as appopriate for helicopter gunships, for example. (Yes, they can be shot down by spearmen. A spear in your jet intake really messes you up.) Or indeed for Montgolfier balloons early in the game.

Air transport functionality can then be modelled either with bomber-type units carrying paratroops, or with something in the helicopter mode that can unload land units at the end of its turn.

Anti-aircraft defence ground units have effective Civ3-type bombard functionality against air units, as a separate stat from their attack and defence values. Anti-aircraft defence is normally a function of specialised units, though late-game modern armour/mechanised infantry/cruiser/destroyer units have some limited amount of anti-aircraft functionality. City air defences are I think better represented as units with movement ) than as awkward hacking about with improvements to make them do unit-combat-type things.

Air units in general have far fewer hit points than contemporary ground units. And they cannot heal at all without returning to a city or a carrier (which prevents the lack of need for refuelling from rendering carriers obsolete). They also lose movement points when damaged.

Missiles are represented as air units which "bombard" a square by landing on it.

Fighter interception of air units from other civs is simulated by the equivalent of a sentry command for a land unit, combined with a Civ3-type zone of control allowing a fighter one free "bombard" shot at an incoming air unit, ecept that unlike Civ 3 every fighter on a square gets that shot.

This is a rough first draft; what I see it as enabling is large air forces as a technological transition point to make carrier groups obsolete battleships at some point even if battleships get un-nerfed. Yes, it leads to the airborne equivalent of SoDs; this is not something I consider a minus. (Particularly when you think of the difference getting a series of cruise missiles or a nuke through to a carrier group would make.)
 
This is a good idea, IMO. So long as it didn't become too frustrating and hence unusable with the constant need to refuel. One simple solution to prevent a large 'stack' or air units in this system would simply be to apply the same penalties that should be applied to a land-based SoD. And I do think that this would be a problem, as aircraft would otherwise be ridiculously overpowered. Even if it is to a degree realistic, it would throw late game balance out the window.
 
[...]The other model, for units that fly low and engage ground units in actual combat while in flight rather than bombardment, is of ones that land at the end of every turn, in whatever square they happen to be in, or can choose to do so before using all movement points. They count as air units in your turn and ground units in everyone else (like the gliders in C-evo). I see this as appropriate for helicopter gunships, for example. (Yes, they can be shot down by spearmen. A spear in your jet intake really messes you up.) Or indeed for Montgolfier balloons early in the game.[...]
:D
i see such mechanic as inappropriate for "helicopter type" units because it gives land units (spearmen, elephants, knights, etc.) some chance of destroying a "helicopter type" unit. it should always remain in the "air" domain. any unit with an anti-air capability can attempt to shoot such units down on their turn.

Air transport functionality can then be modeled either with bomber-type units carrying paratroops, or with something in the helicopter mode that can unload land units at the end of its turn.
Air transport functionality can then be modeled by loading land units on some air transport. then an additional mission "drop [loaded] land units" becomes available for the air transport. if you select this mission and click on some tile in range, the air transport "flies by" and drops the loaded land units onto the clicked tile.

Anti-aircraft defense ground units have effective Civ3-type bombard functionality against air units, as a separate stat from their attack and defense values. Anti-aircraft defense is normally a function of specialized units, though late-game modern armor/mechanized infantry/cruiser/destroyer units have some limited amount of anti-aircraft functionality. City air defenses are I think better represented as units with movement) than as awkward hacking about with improvements to make them do unit-combat-type things.

Air units in general have far fewer hit points than contemporary ground units. And they cannot heal at all without returning to a city or a carrier (which prevents the lack of need for refueling from rendering carriers obsolete). They also lose movement points when damaged.
ok

Missiles are represented as air units which "bombard" a square by landing on it.
this is applied to AS/SS missiles? how about AA/SA missiles?
i think missiles should fall into the "ammunition" unit type. "ammunition" units have to be loaded onto some unit being able to fire them.

Fighter interception of air units from other civs is simulated by the equivalent of a sentry command for a land unit, combined with a Civ3-type zone of control allowing a fighter one free "bombard" shot at an incoming air unit, except that unlike Civ 3 every fighter on a square gets that shot.
ok

This is a rough first draft; what I see it as enabling is large air forces as a technological transition point to make carrier groups obsolete battleships at some point even if battleships get un-nerfed. Yes, it leads to the airborne equivalent of SoDs; this is not something I consider a minus. (Particularly when you think of the difference getting a series of cruise missiles or a nuke through to a carrier group would make.)
an airborne equivalent of the land SoD is something i consider a minus.
 
T. And I do think that this would be a problem, as aircraft would otherwise be ridiculously overpowered. Even if it is to a degree realistic, it would throw late game balance out the window.

I am thinking in terms of the WWII-era shift from battleships to carrier groups; air units should I think be more powered than they are in the game at the moment.
 
:D
i see such mechanic as inappropriate for "helicopter type" units because it gives land units (spearmen, elephants, knights, etc.) some chance of destroying a "helicopter type" unit.

Yes, that's exactly the point. Your Montgolfier ballon or helicopter is sitting on the ground, a land unit can attack it.

Air transport functionality can then be modeled by loading land units on some air transport. then an additional mission "drop [loaded] land units" becomes available for the air transport. if you select this mission and click on some tile in range, the air transport "flies by" and drops the loaded land units onto the clicked tile.

But the whole point of this model is to get rid of the sodding missions.

this is applied to AS/SS missiles? how about AA/SA missiles?

This is applied to cruise missiles (and precursors like V1 and V2 units) and ICBMs/SLBMs, any missile with a range big enough to exceed a single tile. AA, AS and SA missiles seem to me small-scale enough to be included in two units engaging.

an airborne equivalent of the land SoD is something i consider a minus.

And there I was thinking people might like it because of the realism... seriously, I think this problem could be avoided by an appropriate balance of the air units and the anti-aircraft units.
 
I am thinking in terms of the WWII-era shift from battleships to carrier groups; air units should I think be more powered than they are in the game at the moment.

Oh, yes, definitely, but I don't think that having large stacks that would be very difficult to oppose is the way to do this. Perhaps just making the damage done by each individual air unit would be better.
 
Yes, that's exactly the point. Your Montgolfier ballon or helicopter is sitting on the ground, a land unit can attack it.
disagree.

But the whole point of this model is to get rid of the sodding missions.
i think missions more accurately represent air units' capabilities and get rid of some mm. so i disagree here too.

This is applied to cruise missiles (and precursors like V1 and V2 units) and ICBMs/SLBMs, any missile with a range big enough to exceed a single tile. AA, AS and SA missiles seem to me small-scale enough to be included in two units engaging.
tile size in sq km is dependent on map size.

And there I was thinking people might like it because of the realism... seriously, I think this problem could be avoided by an appropriate balance of the air units and the anti-aircraft units.
:D
the whole problem will be avoided if your initial proposal of "having air units behave like land/sea ones" is dropped. i vote no!
 
I've said more than once that the Civ 3/4 "mission" model for air units is a lot less appealing to me than air units that behave as actual units, and the general response seems to be that people find the Civ 1/2 model air units that run out of fuel and crash if not back in a city every turn or two frustrating.

A proposal for a Civ 5 air unit model avoiding both of those issues.

Positing that air units that stay in the air turn after turn are no more of a "realism" problem than triremes that spend multiple centuries at sea.

Air units fall into a handful of basic categories.

Fighter-type units have attack and defense values against other air units, increasing over time. They can neither attack nor be attacked by regular ground units.

Bomber-type units have (generally lower) attack and defence values against other air units. They also have Civ3-type bombard functionality including lethal bombard against ground units; they can do damage or not do damage but will not take any damage from the act of bombing. Completing a bomb run uses up all a bomber's remaining movement points.

Combined fighter-bomber functionality can be modelled by adjusting attack and defence values accordingly.

Unarmed scout-type air units are also a possibility, having a one-tile or in later game two-tile range of vision on the ground beneath them.

The other model, for units that fly low and engage ground units in actual combat while in flight rather than bombardment, is of ones that land at the end of every turn, in whatever square they happen to be in, or can choose to do so before using all movement points. They count as air units in your turn and ground units in everyone else's (like the gliders in C-evo). I see this as appopriate for helicopter gunships, for example. (Yes, they can be shot down by spearmen. A spear in your jet intake really messes you up.) Or indeed for Montgolfier balloons early in the game.

Air transport functionality can then be modelled either with bomber-type units carrying paratroops, or with something in the helicopter mode that can unload land units at the end of its turn.

Anti-aircraft defence ground units have effective Civ3-type bombard functionality against air units, as a separate stat from their attack and defence values. Anti-aircraft defence is normally a function of specialised units, though late-game modern armour/mechanised infantry/cruiser/destroyer units have some limited amount of anti-aircraft functionality. City air defences are I think better represented as units with movement ) than as awkward hacking about with improvements to make them do unit-combat-type things.

Air units in general have far fewer hit points than contemporary ground units. And they cannot heal at all without returning to a city or a carrier (which prevents the lack of need for refuelling from rendering carriers obsolete). They also lose movement points when damaged.

Missiles are represented as air units which "bombard" a square by landing on it.

Fighter interception of air units from other civs is simulated by the equivalent of a sentry command for a land unit, combined with a Civ3-type zone of control allowing a fighter one free "bombard" shot at an incoming air unit, ecept that unlike Civ 3 every fighter on a square gets that shot.

This is a rough first draft; what I see it as enabling is large air forces as a technological transition point to make carrier groups obsolete battleships at some point even if battleships get un-nerfed. Yes, it leads to the airborne equivalent of SoDs; this is not something I consider a minus. (Particularly when you think of the difference getting a series of cruise missiles or a nuke through to a carrier group would make.)

Good read and enjoyed very much. So when can I play?
 
This is another one of those places where people saying "get rid of micromanagement" feels to me like "take away flexibility", I think.
i think that air units should still fly to their destinations. if the tiles, that the air unit will fly on, are in enemy's anti-air coverage, then the air unit will have a chance of being shot down or at least damaged. after completing his mission, the air unit should fly the same way back to base.

[...] So when can I play?
:dunno:
 
i think that air units should still fly to their destinations. if the tiles, that the air unit will fly on, are in enemy's anti-air coverage, then the air unit will have a chance of being shot down or at least damaged. after completing his mission, the air unit should fly the same way back to base.

Which, for example, rules out any of the advantages there might be to flying the unit there and back again by different routes, such as scouting out enemy troop dispositions along the way.
 
Which, for example, rules out any of the advantages there might be to flying the unit there and back again by different routes, such as scouting out enemy troop dispositions along the way.
seeing all the units below when flying is way too much of an advantage, especially, if bombardment where to be added. so consider sight of air units a civ2 feature.
 
I was quite happy to see the "mission" model used for aircraft in Civ3 and Civ4, since it really is a lot more like what air-units actually do. I didn't really like the way air-units worked in Civ2.

Well, actually, I think what would be more interesting would be for there to be a "Hover" class of units which has unrestricted movement and has all the combat-effects of an air-unit, but which was ordered around manually and would stay aloft. This is similar to the russian airships (of dooooom) in Red Alert 2 (and just about every other RTS on the planet), as opposed to the way most other air-units worked in C&C, where they sat at their airbase until given an attack order, then would quickly fly out, do their thing, get shot-at by thinks that could shoot at them, and then fly-back. No hovering F-16s.

So in short, I like both models, but fix-winged aircraft should stick to missions. It would be cool if airships were able to fly around freely IMO.
 
knowledge is power.

more so in the light that air units can spot for bombarding units. even more if you could leave them in flight like in civ2.

I'm not disagreeing that they would be notably powerful; I am querying why you think this would be too much.
 
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