Why China risks war

Snorrius

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Jul 13, 2008
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The present

We all hear these days about China, the Dragon, the Would-be First economy in the World. Due to enoromous debt the mighty USA is bowing to China, and seems like future is full of joy and bliss for this ancient countries. The country is enjoying the period of "small prosperity" to its fullest. A lot of political and economic crystal-gazers predict China to rule the world in 2050. Seems like nothing darken this vision.

Does it?

The past

To know the past is to know the future. Similar situation had already happened in the past, so lets look how our ancestors dealed with it. In the 18th century China was exporting a lot, was buying little, and European powers (especially British Empire - a those times equivalent of US) had big trade deficit with China which they had to pay with silver. Here is what WIki tells us about this issue:

Wikipedia said:
Low Chinese demand for European goods, and high European demand for Chinese goods, including tea, silk, and porcelain, forced European merchants to purchase these goods with silver, the only commodity the Chinese would accept. From the mid-17th century around 28 million kilograms of silver was received by China, principally from European powers, in exchange for Chinese goods.[4] This was not a viable long term trading dynamic. Britain's problem was further complicated by the fact that it had been using the gold standard from the mid 18th Century and therefore had to purchase silver from other European countries, incurring an additional transaction cost.[5]

In the 18th century, despite ardent protest from the Qing government, British traders began importing opium from India. Because of its strong mass appeal and addictive nature, opium was an effective solution to the trade problem. An instant consumer market for the drug was secured by the addiction of thousands of Chinese, and the flow of silver was reversed.

So the Britain started to sell opium to China, and obviously China's government tried to fought this evil off, prohibited opium and imposed trade ban on it. It had not much effect, but at the end in 1839 First Opium War started. British empire began a fight for a democratic rights of Chinese citizens to consume opium. In the 1856-1860 Second Opium War happened.

As a result of this war China suffered a defeat, granted rights to sell opium and other goods to foreigners, lost some territories and ceased to be a trade threat to British empire.

The future

We have a similar situation now. China is the first creditor of USA (and Japan is the next). So USA has to something or it will subdue to China eventually. They cannot really sell enough to this country with Confucian ideology and high savings rate. Heroin could be a good choice but USA does not produce, and it goes against US ideology.

Another thing USA likes export is democracy but it does not seems like it will work in China's case. Something that could fool credulous Eastern European countries is not good enough to fool thousands year country.

So the only thing USA can export to China much enough to cover trade deficits and debt is war.

The scenario

Obviously, USA will not dare to fight China itself. This trade thalassocratia has mighty forces, but it is doubtful that the public will support a war with heavy man losses even with Chinese democracy at the stake. So they will try to use another way.

USA had another creditor - Japan which quite dislikes China. The economy of Japan is moving to system crash and reboot which means social disorder and riots, and a "short victorious war" is what a state needs in such cases, so all of this makes the next scenario quite possible:

  • US forces leaves the Japan, transferring bases, weapons, and other assets to Japan's army. In return Japan cuts US debt.
  • Japan launchs an attach to China's Manchuria claiming they are protecting manchurs from Chinese oppression.
  • The war of China and Japan has very high chance to be won by Japan (Japan does not need to conquer all of China, Manchuria will be enough).
  • Considering that China will also experience economic and social troubles due to Global Depression, the defeat in the war will lead to internal tensions, and like usual in last few thousand years China will succumb to civil war leading to its demise similar to what happened during Opium Wars.

Well, I guess a lot will say Chinese have nukes, so Japan (or anyone else will not dare to attack them, but it is actually not quite right. The problem of nuclear weapon is that by using it one risks to be bombed as well. For example, if Japan occupies Manchuria, and China, not being able to drive them out using conventional means, will nuke Tokio or some other cities, USA may nuke China back to "protect allies and punish act of inhuman crimes", so the chances are China will not dare to use nuclear weapon against Japan because Manchuria occupation is not a threat to existence of China's state. And if they will dare to use it against Japan - it will be a doubleplus win situation for USA. It will give an excuse for radical solution of trade balance with Chian for centuries to come, and will eliminate any possible threats (political, military and economic) from Japan.
 
Get real, please. China imports a lot of stuff, including investments, technologies, know-how etc.

Japan attacking China is so ASB it... couldn't possibly get more ASB even if the Alien Space Bats really landed on Earth...
 
I remeber you like when people read you Long Posts. Have you really read mine for such short amount of time? :eek:

I am a fast reader :mischief:

(seriously, your theory is full of holes. You're comparing collapsing imperial and isolationistic China with modern China, which is a totally false analogy. The easiest way how to make the Chinese import more of your products is to make China richer - because then it will be able to afford them. Examples: European luxury products)
 
but it is doubtful that the public will support a war with heavy man losses even with Chinese democracy at the stake.

Look, the album was pretty good, but I wasn't willing to pay for it let alone die for it. What a silly scenario.
 
The war of China and Japan has very high chance to be won by Japan (Japan does not need to conquer all of China, Manchuria will be enough).

Stop right there. Japan on its own has no possibility of taking and holding Chinese territory. Even when excluding the nuclear option. And Japan would spend itself into ruin attempting to build the capacity to do so.
 
The British are some devious bastards aren't they. In any case, if China is about to fall(to foreign powers or because of the environment or whatever) does it have any friends who are willing to help?
 
Stop right there. Japan on its own has no possibility of taking and holding Chinese territory. Even when excluding the nuclear option. And Japan would spend itself into ruin attempting to build the capacity to do so.

Not to mention that today's Japan is mentally incapable of waging an offensive war, especially not for the sake of Americans. What could they possibly gain, except defeat, poverty, hatred and misery?
 
Get real, please. China imports a lot of stuff, including investments, technologies, know-how etc.
Err... So what? They still export much more then import. Yes, they would like to import all of techs and know-hows, but one of the problems is that USA does not like when countries tries to convert dollars to real US assets. China also holds a lot of US treasuries which they will have to repay.

Japan attacking China is so ASB it... couldn't possibly get more ASB even if the Alien Space Bats really landed on Earth...
That is not argument. Coult you elaborate on this? Japan and China are not really go along well on historical scale - they are natural enemies.
 
I really don't understand the point you are trying to make here. But...this scenario is so full of assumptions and countless variables the chances of this happening are at least one in a trillion.

Let China declare war on whoever they want, the UN alone would crush them at least in the long run, and if it was a US vs China war, the United States would still come out victorious due to the numbers we pump into our military.
 
The fact that nations have a history of enmity does not mean that war between them is going to happen. Japan has the more modern navy and air force, but not large enough to deal with the shear size of the task of taking on China. Japan has little in the way of a modern army. China's army is perhaps a bit dated, but it's huge. China will not attack Japan because the US Navy and Air Force can prevent them from crossing the water to get there and supply their forces. Japan will not attack China because they don't begin to have the strength to do so.
 
Err... So what? They still export much more then import. Yes, they would like to import all of techs and know-hows, but one of the problems is that USA does not like when countries tries to convert dollars to real US assets. China also holds a lot of US treasuries which they will have to repay.

So? You have a pretty 16th century view of how economy works. Perhaps other guys here will explain it to you, I am not really an economist.

That is not argument. Coult you elaborate on this? Japan and China are not really go along well on historical scale - they are natural enemies.

Japanese constitution BANS the government from taking any aggressive action, it doesn't even allow it to develop any offensive capabilities. Before you say this could be amended, there's also zero chance the government could somehow explain it to its people:

"Howdy, citizens! We have decided to invade China like in 1930s, sounds good, eh? Perhaps this time it will be easier, despite the fact that today's China is about 50x as powerful, has nukes, and our military is 10 times smaller and lacks any bridgehead on the Asian mainland. So, prepare your kamikaze headbands, and let's go do it, banzai!" :lmao:

Not - going - to - happen. Never ever :crazyeye:
 
I think you're off your rocker. There won't be a war with Japan vs China
 
I think you're off your rocker. There won't be a war with Japan vs China

Yeah.

It's kind of like a Civ Game.

Japan + US = Friendly
China + Japan = Cautious
/turn
China declares war on Japan!
Rest of world declares war on China!
Here comes America and it's allies....dun dun dun!
China has been defeated!

Damn, shoulda checked that stat page first.

 
Indeed, Japan does not even have an offensive military, only a Defense Force, as part of their terms of surrender in WWII.
 
Japan would not be aggressive towards China, its military is defensive in posture. If the United States was ever involved in a war with China, Japan would certainly be a US ally, even if just for logistical support and use of bases. I think you are looking back at the age old glory days of the rising sun. Now I do not know about Japan much nowadays, but if they did fight China, I suppose they could do something, but I am not sure if they could take and hold on to Manchuria. There are alot of variables, Russia for instance. I am not going to say your scenario is crazy, because things can happen, but at least for now it seems highly unlikely.

A question perhaps for another thread could be. What if Japan and China went to war? What would happen? This is a very interesting question. What if China tried to invade mainland Japan? Is the Chinese fleet and airforce capable of this? I have not studied up on either countries modern capabilities for some time. Does anyone have any answers for this, I would love to hear what you have to say.
 
Wow, I was surprised you were being serious. :lol:
 
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