Deity Questions

Hey Everyone,

I have recently started playing a bunch of Deity starts in an attempt to improve my game. I am very comfortable on Emperor and have success on Immortal as well (but think that fine-tuning my game on Deity will improve my performance here). I play on Normal Speed, Pangaea, default settings. After playing multiple starts, I have noticed some patterns and as a result have some questions. If you have any input on any of the questions, I would appreciate it.

1.) It seems fairly common to lose most opportunities for good city sites before I can even build a settler (usually Worker->Warrior->Settler). I take it this just comes with the territory?

2.) As I mentioned, I feel boxed in pretty quickly on most starts. So the land that is available tends to be far from ideal for city sites. Can you afford on Deity to settle sites without any food resource/floodplains (excluding Gem sites and strategic resources)? I am curious if I am just too stingy with what I consider a viable city site.

3.) On the subpar city site note, I often find my only opportunity for a legitimately good city site is in jungles. However, IW seems to be a dead tech path to me. Researching it yourself keeps you from getting a tradeable tech, but holding out for Aesthetics usually means it is already too late to settle the sites. Settling them before IW usually results in a terrible city and drags research down. Generally are jungle city sites ignored pre-IW? I understand the importance of land and resource grabbing, but when production and research both suffer for it, it appears to be the wrong move.

4.) Is there any real opportunity for bribery pre-CoL? I don't feel like I have any opportunities to bribe the AI in the early game and want to know if that is a problem with my game specifically.

5.) On the same note, are there really opportunities pre-CoL to manipulate the AI? Deity players stress the importance of diplomacy. But I feel like other than possibly choosing a religion to convert to and selection of your allies (an area I still need to improve), there is not much I can do diplomatically in the early game.

6.) Should espionage be a part of my pre-CoL game plan? It seems too early to really leverage, but I wanted to be certain.

Thanks a lot for any input you can give.

I'm not really an established Deity player, but here's my 2c:

mercury529 said:

1.) It seems fairly common to lose most opportunities for good city sites before I can even build a settler (usually Worker->Warrior->Settler). I take it this just comes with the territory?

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Yes. There are other build orders to consider though in some circumstances (like prioritizing a settler if theres one godly resource/blocker spot in danger to be lost to an AI).

mercury529 said:

2.) As I mentioned, I feel boxed in pretty quickly on most starts. So the land that is available tends to be far from ideal for city sites. Can you afford on Deity to settle sites without any food resource/floodplains (excluding Gem sites and strategic resources)? I am curious if I am just too stingy with what I consider a viable city site.

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Well, playing Deity doesn't make crap cities any better. Cities with mostly grassland but no food are of course good after the initial settling frenzy, preferably secured by land blocking. If there're many river tiles on top of having a lot of grass then it's a good city in my book though.

mercury529 said:

3.) On the subpar city site note, I often find my only opportunity for a legitimately good city site is in jungles. However, IW seems to be a dead tech path to me. Researching it yourself keeps you from getting a tradeable tech, but holding out for Aesthetics usually means it is already too late to settle the sites. Settling them before IW usually results in a terrible city and drags research down. Generally are jungle city sites ignored pre-IW? I understand the importance of land and resource grabbing, but when production and research both suffer for it, it appears to be the wrong move.

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It can be worth it to go for IW in situations like this. Basically you can consider it an economy tech much like Currency or CoL if it opens a couple dozen grass river sites to be cottaged. Often though you can settle the cities in a way that they can work enough tiles (4-6) pre-IW to contribute and skip IW until later.

mercury529 said:

4.) Is there any real opportunity for bribery pre-CoL? I don't feel like I have any opportunities to bribe the AI in the early game and want to know if that is a problem with my game specifically.

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Not really.

mercury529 said:

5.) On the same note, are there really opportunities pre-CoL to manipulate the AI? Deity players stress the importance of diplomacy. But I feel like other than possibly choosing a religion to convert to and selection of your allies (an area I still need to improve), there is not much I can do diplomatically in the early game.

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Not really.

mercury529 said:

6.) Should espionage be a part of my pre-CoL game plan? It seems too early to really leverage, but I wanted to be certain.

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What, there's espionage pre-CoL? Maybe with GW->GSpy shenanigans but that's not terribly likely either.

1. The AI starts with an extra settler so yes, by default there's one less good site for you to settle.

2. Totally depends on the available land. Rivers are good, as are large clumps of calendar resources.

3. Settle in the jungle if the resources are worth it. If there are gems, it may be worth teching IW depending on the surrounding land.

4. If you're at war already, then yes aesthetics + alpha may be enough to bribe another civ into the war. To bribe a civ not at war, it'll be hard without more expensive techs.

5. See 4. Also, you should OB more selectively.

6. If by part of your game, you mean increasing the slider, then no unless you have the great wall.

mercury529 said:

1.) It seems fairly common to lose most opportunities for good city sites before I can even build a settler (usually Worker->Warrior->Settler). I take it this just comes with the territory?

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Try blocking more land by moving your starting settler.

mercury529 said:

2.) As I mentioned, I feel boxed in pretty quickly on most starts. So the land that is available tends to be far from ideal for city sites. Can you afford on Deity to settle sites without any food resource/floodplains (excluding Gem sites and strategic resources)? I am curious if I am just too stingy with what I consider a viable city site.

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Most of the time it's best to concentrate on good cities, few as they are. Settle bad locations when:

- you need such cities to unlock Globe/Oxford (obviously the city has to be able to construct university in reasonable time)
- occasionally it is useful to grab deserts and such for oil later in the game

Both of the above depend on your grand strategy for economy and war.

mercury529 said:

3. On the subpar city site note, I often find my only opportunity for a legitimately good city site is in jungles. However, IW seems to be a dead tech path to me. Researching it yourself keeps you from getting a tradeable tech, but holding out for Aesthetics usually means it is already too late to settle the sites. Settling them before IW usually results in a terrible city and drags research down. Generally are jungle city sites ignored pre-IW? I understand the importance of land and resource grabbing, but when production and research both suffer for it, it appears to be the wrong move.

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IW is a dead-end. It's up to you to calculate paying extra gold for a land claim now or paying extra for expansion war later.

mercury529 said:

4.) Is there any real opportunity for bribery pre-CoL? I don't feel like I have any opportunities to bribe the AI in the early game and want to know if that is a problem with my game specifically.

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Oracle -> MC. Don't forget it's much cheaper to bribe v AI that is already at war.

mercury529 said:

5.) On the same note, are there really opportunities pre-CoL to manipulate the AI? Deity players stress the importance of diplomacy. But I feel like other than possibly choosing a religion to convert to and selection of your allies (an area I still need to improve), there is not much I can do diplomatically in the early game.

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That, and keeping some cash available if you play random events.

mercury529 said:

6.) Should espionage be a part of my pre-CoL game plan? It seems too early to really leverage, but I wanted to be certain.

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Don't waste palace espionage pp, focus.

your worrying about all the wrong things

not one question relates to war

only one question relating to diplomacy

the evidence is clear- your thinking in all the wrong directions

mercury529 said:

I have recently started playing a bunch of Deity starts in an attempt to improve my game. I am very comfortable on Emperor and have success on Immortal as well (but think that fine-tuning my game on Deity will improve my performance here).

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That's me exactly!

Unconquered Sun said:

Try blocking more land by moving your starting settler.

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Wander? That sounds like quite a gamble on anything but marathon to me. Specifically when some place nearby seems like it could be a good choke-point, or in general? How far and how long?

What is a good settler/worker timeline? Do you guys simply rush settlers until there's no land available, or do you take time to build library or anything else?

Unconquered Sun said:

Most of the time it's best to concentrate on good cities, few as they are. Settle bad locations when:

- you need such cities to unlock Globe/Oxford (obviously the city has to be able to construct university in reasonable time)

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I'm having trouble with this. If I can peacefully expand to, say, 6-7 cities (meaning 4-5 good and a couple of total crap infill), I have beaten the AI's to Educ/Lib - I've been playing with "aggressive ai", which seems to slow their tech pace to a level I can handle. The crap cities take forever and a day to build a university. By the 500-1000 AD period, I'm in a jam. I simply don't have the hammer output to even think about waging an expansion war, and I can't get to Oxford, build CH's and whatever else fast enough to actually get ahead in tech. I guess I just haven't been able to grab enough good land early to take me through the mid-game. I've been playing fairly tight maps, though.

One question: how do you trade techs/cash? I'm a bit of a cash-trade whore - like, I'll give away anything for 100g mid-game on quick speed.

Whipping universities is an easy way to meet Oxford requirements.

I tend to only build a library in the capital and in my early GP farm during the first 4000 years. Otherwise, it's mostly just granaries, workers, settlers, and a few military units.

It is almost impossible to get good spots on your own in Diety. Your best bet is to build maybe 1 city on your own, and then attack the nearest AI as soon as possible and take their cities.

Thanks a lot for all the input everyone. It is good to get feedback. After reading I had a few more questions.

1.) It is not uncommon for me to only have an opportunity to secure 2, maybe even 1, quality new city sites before I am blocked in by the AI (anywhere in the 60-75 turn range on normal speed). Is this unusual, or will I frequently need to stage my land grab with 2-3 quality cities (including the capitol)?

2.) On Settler wandering, I have the same question as babybluepants. Do you only do this for land blocking reasons when it appears you are starting an area that has a natural chokepoint?

3.) On the Oracle->MC technique, I assume this is a risky gambit on Deity? I presume losing the Oracle pretty much results in game over?

troytheface said:

your worrying about all the wrong things

not one question relates to war

only one question relating to diplomacy

the evidence is clear- your thinking in all the wrong directions

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If it was unclear, my questions are geared entirely toward the starting portion of my game. This means pre-CoL and honestly pre-Construction as well.

1.) What role do you feel war has in the early game that I would likely be missing? Here is generally how I view war pre-Construction:

a.) If I have an early game UU or the opportunity for an axe rush, I will take it. This usually means I have access to copper/horses in my starting BFG (or very occasionally in my second city with 2 move units), a neighbor who is a viable target (not protective, not on hill cities, not well fortified, and close enough to attack on normal speed), and choppable land to work with.

b.) I will start wars when it gives me an opportunity to stunt the growth of the AI target for my first war.

c.) I will start a war to worker steal when retaliation is unlikely or suing for peace afterward is viable.

2.) You stress the importance of diplomacy which I certainly understand. Do you have any input on the two questions I asked regarding diplomacy (bribery and manipulation in the early game)?

3.) The other area I could certainly improve my diplomacy is selecting allies/religion. If you have any suggestions here, I would certainly appreciate it. I did not ask because I was under the impression that beyond what I already have devised and have read, there are no hard and fast rules. I think it is likely my improvement in this area will come from experience because each instance is so situational.

4.) Other than ally/religion selection, bribery, and manipulation, are there other aspects of diplomacy that I need to be concerned with in the early game?

Thanks again.

mercury529 said:

a.) If I have an early game UU or the opportunity for an axe rush, I will take it. This usually means I have access to copper/horses in my starting BFG (or very occasionally in my second city with 2 move units), a neighbor who is a viable target (not protective, not on hill cities, not well fortified, and close enough to attack on normal speed), and choppable land to work with.

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With regular axes (pro/fin leader), no copper in capital (had to get another city to hook it up), I had take out copperless protective / creative capital on a hill with walls (and with womething like 8-9 axe). It was on Prince, so not remotely close to deity, but still you'd better not be too shy with rush.

mercury529 said:

1.) It seems fairly common to lose most opportunities for good city sites before I can even build a settler (usually Worker->Warrior->Settler). I take it this just comes with the territory?

Click to expand...

As a rule of thumb, I usually go Worker->Barracks/Monument->Settler, swapping to a Settler as soon as I hit pop2.

It's important to get started on that Settler ASAP, hence a swap as soon as I hit pop2.

Due to the way hammer decay works, if I'm going to invest in a second unit, I need to complete it before moving onto a third unit, unless the third unit takes fewer than ten turns to complete, which it won't at this point of the game.

I would rather invest hammers into a building because they take far far longer to decay. Unless I specifically want Stonehenge (or one of the Masonry wonders), I won't use these hammers on a wonder; we're only talking 1-2 hammers per turn (roughly 5-15 hammers total). As I said, unless I plan on continuing the build, it's not worth investing into the wonder because the gold return on 5-15 hammers is so low.

Additionally, I've found one fogbuster is good enough protection for the first 1-2 cities, depending on when you get them out. Even with huts on, there's plenty of time to bring your starting Warrior/Scout back to fogbust for the Settler. I've even fogbusted with Workers, and have even used the Settler to fogbust for a Worker which is one turn behind the train.

mercury529 said:

2.) As I mentioned, I feel boxed in pretty quickly on most starts. So the land that is available tends to be far from ideal for city sites. Can you afford on Deity to settle sites without any food resource/floodplains (excluding Gem sites and strategic resources)? I am curious if I am just too stingy with what I consider a viable city site.

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You work with what you can. Your best bet is to settle your first city in an ideal location to "box" your nearest AI. They'll generally settle in the opposite direction so long as good land is available that way.

In a sense, you're prioritizing strategy (border layout) over quality of the sites, but at the same time you'll still need some quality, which means at least one good source of food and a few good hammer tiles.

One thing I've noticed is that you'll also want to prioritize settling with resources in the inner BFC. A weakpoint of mine is that I constantly settle to grab the most resources. The AI is generally unconcerned about the quality of sites, and on Deity will absolutely grab that resource if you don't.

mercury529 said:

3.) On the subpar city site note, I often find my only opportunity for a legitimately good city site is in jungles. However, IW seems to be a dead tech path to me. Researching it yourself keeps you from getting a tradeable tech, but holding out for Aesthetics usually means it is already too late to settle the sites. Settling them before IW usually results in a terrible city and drags research down. Generally are jungle city sites ignored pre-IW? I understand the importance of land and resource grabbing, but when production and research both suffer for it, it appears to be the wrong move.

Click to expand...

My problem with it is as you point out, IW is a "dead" tech. It's expensive, and many of the AIs will prioritize it.

Unfortunately, you'll just need to cope with carrying any jungle city for awhile. I have to agree that it's aggravating to have the only jungle sites available to settle, while the AI is grabbing everything on the other side of the jungle.

You could cross through it; some jungle isn't that thick. But even then, the distance maintenance costs are .

mercury529 said:

4.) Is there any real opportunity for bribery pre-CoL? I don't feel like I have any opportunities to bribe the AI in the early game and want to know if that is a problem with my game specifically.

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I think it's more a question of diplomatic skills, and allowing time for diplomatic modifiers to build. It takes time to build modifiers, and you need to be aware of what diplomatic options are available when (ie what's available for trade this turn, next turn, the turn after that).

mercury529 said:

5.) On the same note, are there really opportunities pre-CoL to manipulate the AI? Deity players stress the importance of diplomacy. But I feel like other than possibly choosing a religion to convert to and selection of your allies (an area I still need to improve), there is not much I can do diplomatically in the early game.

Click to expand...

See above. Open Borders, tributes/gifts, fair&forthright trading (where they get the better end of the deal), tech/resource trading, civics, mutual military struggle, etc. Each AI values each of these differently (including shared religion), and the modifiers will build at different rates.

A religious zealot, for example, will have a higher +shared religion modifier, and (I believe) will accrue +shared religion at a faster rate. Likewise for a warmonger you're fighting alongside.

mercury529 said:

6.) Should espionage be a part of my pre-CoL game plan? It seems too early to really leverage, but I wanted to be certain.

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Many many variables. To be honest, unless you build the Great Wall, and sacrifice a early Scientist for a Spy (or happen to get a Spy while pushing for a Scientist despite the GW), then it's really only worth using it for 1 turn revolts, if at all.

mercury529 said:

Thanks a lot for any input you can give.

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I just want to let you know that I'm not a Deity player, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. But I did do alright playing ALC 27(?)(the one that is Deity).

Nares said:

Many many variables. To be honest, unless you build the Great Wall, and sacrifice a early Scientist for a Spy (or happen to get a Spy while pushing for a Scientist despite the GW), then it's really only worth using it for 1 turn revolts, if at all.

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If you run Sumeria, you have courthouse at Priesthood instead of CoL, and consequently you can actualy use espionnage very soon. Grabbing fishing, sailing, archery, and other cheap tech with sumeria is commonplace.

They may be others civ or setup that allow fast espionage resource, but I don't know them.

babybluepants said:

Wander? That sounds like quite a gamble on anything but marathon to me. Specifically when some place nearby seems like it could be a good choke-point, or in general? How far and how long?

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"Gambling" implies you risk to lose something you already have: when your deity win chances are low to nonexistant, you don't risk much.

TheLazyHase said:

With regular axes (pro/fin leader), no copper in capital (had to get another city to hook it up), I had take out copperless protective / creative capital on a hill with walls (and with womething like 8-9 axe). It was on Prince, so not remotely close to deity, but still you'd better not be too shy with rush.

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Uhhhhh.... we are talking deity here. Are you kidding?

TheLazyHase said:

If you run Sumeria, you have courthouse at Priesthood instead of CoL, and consequently you can actualy use espionnage very soon. Grabbing fishing, sailing, archery, and other cheap tech with sumeria is commonplace.

They may be others civ or setup that allow fast espionage resource, but I don't know them.

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Are you serious??? You honestly tell this guy (who is looking for legit info), that he should wait until he techs past priesthood AND alphabet, etc, and THEN take time to build spies, etc, and THEN wait while accumulating points, and THEN finally use them to attempt to try and steal archery (and other needed things).

Ummm... What can I say...................

I don't mean to over-state the obvious but you should have either had those long before this point, or you should be avoiding archery altogether if you haven't had it by that point. And after remembering now your other responses to people in the GENERAL section of the forum, I'm starting to realize you really are serious.

Please stop making a fool of yourself, you're advice will continually take a winning player, and make him into a losing one. And let this be a good lesson to the initial poster, when asking advice, make sure you know who is actually telling you what advice to follow. Someone who plays 5 levels under you should definitely raise some eyebrows.

TheLazyHase said:

With regular axes (pro/fin leader), no copper in capital (had to get another city to hook it up), I had take out copperless protective / creative capital on a hill with walls (and with womething like 8-9 axe). It was on Prince, so not remotely close to deity, but still you'd better not be too shy with rush.

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Few things: the expenses are way, way higher on deity (both city expenses and free units). W/ 8 axes on a hill and protective you might not able to take the archers the deity AIs start with.
On price level there is no need to build axes to rush to begin with.

Nares said:

See above. Open Borders, tributes/gifts, fair&forthright trading (where they get the better end of the deal), tech/resource trading, civics, mutual military struggle, etc. Each AI values each of these differently (including shared religion), and the modifiers will build at different rates.

A religious zealot, for example, will have a higher +shared religion modifier, and (I believe) will accrue +shared religion at a faster rate. Likewise for a warmonger you're fighting alongside.

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Looked into this and there is an somewhat erratic guide on diplomatic bonuses in the War Academy: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/diplo_victory_notes.php.

obsolete said:

Are you serious??? You honestly tell this guy (who is looking for legit info), that he should wait until he techs past priesthood AND alphabet, etc, and THEN take time to build spies, etc, and THEN wait while accumulating points, and THEN finally use them to attempt to try and steal archery (and other needed things).

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I talk from what I have stolen in this case. I don't remind if I had a lot a tech popping from hut, but for sure I was able to hold back archery, simply because I had an army of Vulture. I hadn't a single seafood, too, so that's another tech that I don't research straight away, especially wen I have a big empire to recover from.

It seem a legit tactic to say "if you don't need a tech immediatly, you can wait for it". Note that I wasn't saying "forget about archery until you have writing". Note that stealing fishing cost as little as 200-300 point. Your PALACE alone can give thoses points (I don't remind for archery, but it should not be a lot more).

I may had need to be more precise. But the premisse of "Sumerian can begin to steal much sooner than other" is actually true. You should try to show where it doesn't work instead of sayiung "it doesn't work".

damn- had a nice post complimenting your lucid questioning and then gave great advice then hit the back button and lost everything i wrote and now i lost the fire and don't have it it me to repeat what was about the greatest advice of all time- in life as well as Civ4

instead i will say this - 99.9 percent of "diety" wins posted are by those that regenerate the map and reload about 50 billion times. Computer guys can do anything so any "failsafe" against such in a HOF post is dubious at best - in short- to win at diety as do others- cheat

however- in lieu of this - settler march and AI cap early kill never hurts and is doable
only way to match city build and early near competition in my experience
diplo is for later anywho but you should know where you stand by then -

troytheface said:

damn- had a nice post complimenting your lucid questioning and then gave great advice then hit the back button and lost everything i wrote and now i lost the fire and don't have it it me to repeat what was about the greatest advice of all time- in life as well as Civ4

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No!! This is a bigger disaster than Isaac Newton accidentally burning his manuscripts

TheLazyHase said:

I talk from what I have stolen in this case. I... Note that stealing fishing cost as little as 200-300 point. Your PALACE alone can give thoses points (I don't remind for archery, but it should not be a lot more).

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Care to explain how you steal without having writing? I would like to improve my strategies...