Maniac
Apolyton Sage
Where you provide feedback.
Feedback thread
- Thread starter Maniac
- Start date
Pfeffersack
Deity
Shoudn't be the name of this thread "v12 Feedback" ?
Anyway, v12 runs stable for me so far (nearly 200 turns without crashes or major bugs), just some minor observations/ideas:
1. The first picture I have attached shows one of my bases, which has both the Pholus Ridge and mines inside its radius - this leads to a strange display for the PV ("+2 for Mines" is listed as a positive factor)
2. Next picure shows the capital of AI Morgan (clearly leading in score in that game) - he has already accumulated 5 of his GPs there. I supect that this contributes a lot to the feeling that he might be overpowered (at least economically - he is still a rather weak military target)
3. We had a recent discussion about if Locusts are overpowered. I have an idea how we could at least make it a bit harder to mainatain a complete army out of them - PF has increasing maintenance for conventional units, the stronger they get. Native units don't have a strength, but still Locusts are a kind of improvement - they can fly, move faster and can be used both on land and sea, which is already reflected by higher training costs. So why shouldn't they consume more PSI potential as well (imagine them as extraordinarily wildd and hungry)? I would suggest 300 PSI free PSI points to be able to build one and a consumption of 3 per turn.
BTW, have you added some new GP names? I have seen Richard Baxton as Great Psych Chaplain
Anyway, v12 runs stable for me so far (nearly 200 turns without crashes or major bugs), just some minor observations/ideas:
1. The first picture I have attached shows one of my bases, which has both the Pholus Ridge and mines inside its radius - this leads to a strange display for the PV ("+2 for Mines" is listed as a positive factor)
2. Next picure shows the capital of AI Morgan (clearly leading in score in that game) - he has already accumulated 5 of his GPs there. I supect that this contributes a lot to the feeling that he might be overpowered (at least economically - he is still a rather weak military target)
3. We had a recent discussion about if Locusts are overpowered. I have an idea how we could at least make it a bit harder to mainatain a complete army out of them - PF has increasing maintenance for conventional units, the stronger they get. Native units don't have a strength, but still Locusts are a kind of improvement - they can fly, move faster and can be used both on land and sea, which is already reflected by higher training costs. So why shouldn't they consume more PSI potential as well (imagine them as extraordinarily wildd and hungry)? I would suggest 300 PSI free PSI points to be able to build one and a consumption of 3 per turn.
BTW, have you added some new GP names? I have seen Richard Baxton as Great Psych Chaplain
Attachments
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
Should be fixed now.
Differing psi potential requirement would be hard to represent interfacewise. Perhaps only give them a different maintenance?
I wonder though, gravships are in many ways similar to locusts, yet no one comments about those. Might the reason Locusts seem to be overpowered be that they are available earlier than Gravships? In that case another option would be to let some more advanced tech give them +1 movement point and bCanMoveAllTerrain, and before that only give them three movement points and the ability to fly over territorial waters. Like Rotors in other words.
BTW, have you added some new GP names? I have seen Richard Baxton as Great Psych Chaplain
Yep. Even after looking at the SDK, I don't have a clue how great people names are chosen by the way. So it might be useful if people made a list of what great people names they got while playing a game (and mention what map size, game speed... they are on playing on).
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
Hmm, it's a long thread. Is it explained somewhere in there how great people names are usually generated?
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WarKirby
Arty person
I think you really need some pedia text for each faction. Many of them have special capabilities which are totally hidden
Pfeffersack
Deity
I think the leader entries do a good job of explaining their factions specialities. Of course providing that info in the faction section wouldn't hurt, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to do that - the Civ 4 engine usually ties traits and similars things (except UB and UU) to leaders and not civilizations. A link from the faction page to the leader one is already there (picture of faction leader) and hovering the mouse over it even tells you the specials.
Maybe the faction site is the place for some flavor text?
WarKirby
Arty person
I'm still finding the lack of flamethrower psi defense to be an endless headache. It's also a main reason the locust rush strategy is so stupidly overpowered. I think the 3-2 balance makes psi cpombat plenty offensive enough already, but not giving the unit type that's supposed to counter it, a defense bonus against it, is just silly.
Personally, I've swapped all the mindworm/spore launcher attack bonuses for general +% vs native life bonuses, on all flamethrower units. I'm finding that this change plays far better. I'm playing a pure terraformer game now and mindworms are still as bloody annoying as ever to deal with. The defense bonus isn't too powerful because they keep attacking with spore launchers first, weakening defenders with collateral. I'm still losing the majority of my hyperians on defense, regardless of their free +30% psi defense.
Personally, I've swapped all the mindworm/spore launcher attack bonuses for general +% vs native life bonuses, on all flamethrower units. I'm finding that this change plays far better. I'm playing a pure terraformer game now and mindworms are still as bloody annoying as ever to deal with. The defense bonus isn't too powerful because they keep attacking with spore launchers first, weakening defenders with collateral. I'm still losing the majority of my hyperians on defense, regardless of their free +30% psi defense.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
Questionsssss...
1) Why are you defending against instead of attacking the native life?
2) How come Hyperians and not Bunkers are defending?
1) Why are you defending against instead of attacking the native life?
2) How come Hyperians and not Bunkers are defending?
WarKirby
Arty person
Flamethrower, Hyperian, and Helion all need pedia entries.
WarKirby
Arty person
I attack whenever possible. but native life get defensive bonuses in things like fungus, and they have a tendancy to attack from afar using fungus as a road, allowing you to be attacked from places where you can't attack them.
Because there's 50 million mind worms and only one bunker. Usually after defeating 1, maybe 2 units in a turn, or getting countered trying to bombard a fungal tower, the bunker is too damaged to have a reasonable chance of winning if it defends, so other units in the stack take over.
in general, I understand fully well that psi combat is supposed to be offense-oriented. This change doesn't make it much less so. Even the helion with his +35% Psi defense is still at a disadvantage when defending compared to offense. I'm not saying that flamethrower units need to be good at defending against mind worms. Nothing is, and that's fine with me. But I think they need to be better than any other type of unit, because it's their job. Wouldn't it be silly if there was an infantry unit with collateral damage and ranged attacks? it would take away from the role of artillery units. In this case, anything with more than 1 movement takes preference over flamethrowers when you want to fight mind worms. Using flamethrowers to fight worms should be a case of sacrificing speed, for strength. but as is, it's sacrificing speed, for nothing. Flamethrowers are useless for defending against worms. Choppers, or even just rovers, with empath song, are so much more efficient that flamethrowers are rendered pointless.
Now, psi combat is, and should stay, offensively focused. Being in the defensive position should be pretty undesireable. BUT, when you do find yourself in that position, you should want a flamethrower in your defense more than anything else (except a bunker maybe).
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
Since you mention Fungal Towers, I assume you are talking about Fungal Blooms.
In that case my tip would be: build more formers! (Or produce more culture) The more formers, the faster you can clear all the fungus. No fungus, no fungal blooms, no need to defend against native life. It's perfectly possible to play a Terraformer game without getting a single fungal bloom.
With formers you can build additional Bunkers. You'll still only have one Bunker in the base itself, but those Bunkers provide additional ranged strikes with which you can weaken the native life spawn, so that they will hardly be able to scratch whatever is defending the base.
Flamethrower, compared to choppers, do have a higher offensive strength, and can benefit from defense boni.
In that case my tip would be: build more formers! (Or produce more culture) The more formers, the faster you can clear all the fungus. No fungus, no fungal blooms, no need to defend against native life. It's perfectly possible to play a Terraformer game without getting a single fungal bloom.
With formers you can build additional Bunkers. You'll still only have one Bunker in the base itself, but those Bunkers provide additional ranged strikes with which you can weaken the native life spawn, so that they will hardly be able to scratch whatever is defending the base.
Flamethrower, compared to choppers, do have a higher offensive strength, and can benefit from defense boni.
AthenaMaria
Chieftain
Love this mod. THANK YOU! for bringing Alpha Centauri to the world of Civ 4. Can't believe I only just found it but I didn't try any mods until lately.
I am wondering if I have got better at Noble or if the level is easier though. After this current game I will move up a level to find out. Agree with some of the comments above about defence against native life. Could be better I guess, but I usually find the best form of defence is attack and I chop chop chop away the xenofungus as soon as possible by building many many formers. Hope this is the right strategy but it seems to be working for me.
And I love how you can convert formers to bunkers. That's very neat indeed.
I am wondering if I have got better at Noble or if the level is easier though. After this current game I will move up a level to find out. Agree with some of the comments above about defence against native life. Could be better I guess, but I usually find the best form of defence is attack and I chop chop chop away the xenofungus as soon as possible by building many many formers. Hope this is the right strategy but it seems to be working for me.
And I love how you can convert formers to bunkers. That's very neat indeed.
GeoModder
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2005
- Messages
- 7,512
It seems to be the intended strategy for terraforming players.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
That or produce culture. Requires less micromanagement.
Pfeffersack
Deity
I agree, as long as you keep the fungus down as terraformer you will not come into trouble. On land even less then on sea. However, you have to accept that Planetfall differs here from SMAC. Fungus removing was no valid strategy there. Instead the only thing you had to take care of was attacking that 20-mindworm-stack first, then 19 mindworms would just disappear. Planetfall's planet is more nasty and you have to pick up the right tools (e.g. bunkers) to withstand it. What also makes defending harder is that PFs 2:3 ratio for PSI land defense is worse then SMAC 2:3 - less strength means less dealt damage per won combat round as well (just linear effect on chance to win a round in SMAC). If we really should come to the conclusion PSI defense on land needs a buff, then make it 3:4 for example could achieve that.
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Again on Morgan...given that he is designed to be an economic powerhouse with weaknesses when it comes to waging war, it might be a good idea to increase the WW malus significantly - I would go as far and say 100%. Why? The 20% are hard to notice - WW shows up in form of extra drones and unless I have missed something, +20% will mean 20% more drones. Make 6 out of 5. Taking in account that not too far into the game, Cyborg style units cut human losses and the attached WW, I hardly find any faction having that much drones from WW.
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Again on Morgan...given that he is designed to be an economic powerhouse with weaknesses when it comes to waging war, it might be a good idea to increase the WW malus significantly - I would go as far and say 100%. Why? The 20% are hard to notice - WW shows up in form of extra drones and unless I have missed something, +20% will mean 20% more drones. Make 6 out of 5. Taking in account that not too far into the game, Cyborg style units cut human losses and the attached WW, I hardly find any faction having that much drones from WW.
WarKirby
Arty person
The offensive strength, however, is rarely important. the 2:3 ratio means that you're usually going to win as attacker, and having enough movement to reliably be in the good position is far more valuable than being slightly better when you're in said good position. I maintain that choppers, and especially rotors, are FAR superior to flamethrowers.
On the other hand, yes, flamethrowers can get defensive bonuses. But so can infantry. Flamethrowers have nothing on them. A flamethrower defending is exactly the same usefulness as an infantry unit defending, which is to say not very much. Flamethrowers should be better than infantry, because they sacrifice things like Bioenhanced and Anti Armor, for specific anti-native-life roles.
Giving them psi defense bonuses gives them a role, of psi defense. Because they do not have the role of Psi attack units despite what their present bonuses would seem to indicate. anything with more than one movement trounces them utterly in that department.
Yes, I know you can give them the APC ability, but that makes zero difference in fungus and rocky areas, which is where I seem to do most fighting. In addition to having more movement, choppers also have no terrain costs, allowing them to effortlessly sail over the fungus and attack the enemy. Choppers with empath song are better than anything for mindworm hunting, and flamethrowers are left in the dust.With rotors, you can even attack over two spaces and still retreat to safety after getting a kill. Whenever a flamethrower is sent out with their 1 movement, they can't make it back in the same turn, and so even attacking an adjacent mindworm will often lead to losing the unit.
To put it succinctly, I'm not saying that psi defense needs a buff generally, but that flamethrower units do. The role they're supposed to fill is done better by two other unitcombats (vanguard and artillery) because they have higher movement in a context where getting the initiative is paramount. giving them psi defense bonuses gives a different role, one which is currently unfilled, and also helps them with attacking by giving a decent chance of surviving not getting the initiative, allowing them to move next to mindworms and weather the counterattack
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
That would nudge Morgan towards the Genetics techs. That's not really supposed to be his theme. Given this I'd rather be inclined to just remove Morgan's war weariness increase. Perhaps Lal could get +50% war weariness instead? He *is* supposed to be the genetics guy. And perhaps Morgan could get something like -10% military production instead?
Seriously dude, give it a rest. You're falling into repetition. Nothing new will come out of talking about this further. Both Flamethrowers and Vanguards are intended to be good at fighting native life in different ways. It's why Terraforming leads to Doctrine: Air Power for instance. It's only normal that some people will prefer one tactic, and other people another. I for one build tons of flamethrowers and rarely build Vanguards.
If you want I can reply to your post describing how I circumvent the flamethrowers lower mobility (just place them right where you expect a fungal bloom to happen..) or point out some inconsistencies in your math (hypnotic flamethrowers behind a perimeter defense actually have higher odds of survival on the defense than empath choppers against fungus/rocky on the offense), but you're not going to convince me flamethrowers need a boost.
Pfeffersack
Deity
Yes, considering the SMAC backround and the idea of "peacekeepers" it makes more sense this way - though I would recommend a 20% penalty (10% might not make too much of a difference for someone like Morgan)
