The idea of units/buildings going obsolete is pretty straightforward. When units become obsolete they can no longer be built, but ones already build don't dissapear. The same is true for wonders except their lose their effect beyond generating culture. I never paid attention, but does the monument dissapear? More important, what happens with the castle. Walls do not go away, I suppose castles do, but you keep the defense bonus in some form? Maybe I'm overthinking this. Also while on the topic of defense, is there any way to see a breakdown of a city defense percentage and finally what exactly is a cultural defense bonus?
Obsolescence and City Defense
- Thread starter juanbobo
- Start date
You keep the defense bonus from the castle versus medieval (not gunpowder) units, you lose the espionage, the extra trade route and AFAIK the culture.
The cultural defense bonus is generated by the amount of culture in the city. It's the one you see on a city without walls or castle, or if you use a gunpowder unit. It's between 0 et 100%, and you can lower it with siege. You can see it above the city's bar, on the right.
I think the monument's culture bonus disappears after Astronomy, not the monument itself, but I could be wrong.
The cultural defense bonus is generated by the amount of culture in the city. It's the one you see on a city without walls or castle, or if you use a gunpowder unit. It's between 0 et 100%, and you can lower it with siege. You can see it above the city's bar, on the right.
I think the monument's culture bonus disappears after Astronomy, not the monument itself, but I could be wrong.
I think as you said the culture bonus disappears but I believe it keeps any accumulated culture. Also, if you own Stonehenge, any city that did not BUILD a monument beforehand loses both its monument and it's culture. There was a thread about that a week or so ago...I may have it wrong.
When I think about castles I always think about how gypped the Spanish are in terms of UB. That's pretty unfair that their UB has such a short useful window.
No obsolete building is stripped of its culture bonus AFAIK, with IIRC the exception of Sistine-bonus of Monasteries at SciMethod (7->normal 2) and SH-created Monuments (which disappear). Astronomy obsoletes Monuments so you can't build them, but existing ones keep on churning culture.
The window is entirely up to you. Spain can fight with CR3 Artillery & D3 MCGs & Mop-up rifles or whatever out of the gates by skipping Economics. If you also have GLH (obsoletes at Corporation) you can wreak some serious havoc while skipping Economics for a long time.
The window is entirely up to you. Spain can fight with CR3 Artillery & D3 MCGs & Mop-up rifles or whatever out of the gates by skipping Economics. If you also have GLH (obsoletes at Corporation) you can wreak some serious havoc while skipping Economics for a long time.
I know, I know, but it still seems like they overlooked something. Though you CAN hold off and do well, I'd much rather have castles not go obsolete for a longer time, or be able build them much earlier...Say Construction. Rifling comes very soon after Engineering honestly, but I guess you can say that for many techs. If you beeline anything it'll come sooner rather than later, within REASON. You still need science buildings.
I think to have to deviate from an integral part of the tech tree to keep your UB longer is not cool. But that siege XP bonus sure is tasty
Badtz Maru
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I played a great game as the Spanish (had my best score yet) and I got a lot out of the citadels. I delayed going free market for a long time and cranked out siege that were saved for later upgrades. I think it's interesting that the timing of it's UB forces players of Spain to imitate the mercantilism of the Spanish Empire.
There's several neat things like that in Civ. I like how I feel like delaying Scientific Method when I have a strongly religion-based civilization because it obsoletes so many great buildings if you've gone that route. If you never placed much importance on religion, it's perfectly fine to go to Scientific Method early - game mimicking history.
No, both the Monument and the culture remain. You just can't build anymore. In the case of special Monuments, and the happiness bonus for Charismatic, you lose all the special abilities. Culture is never lost if a building becomes obsolete, nor does the building itself.
Also, I recall reading that the bombard defence bonuses for Castles and Walls remain even though they aren't supposed to. I guess that was a bug, but I'm not sure if that was fixed later or not.
Yes, once both Walls and Castles are built you still retain the defence bonuses against pre-Gunpowder units. The loss of that bonus is not tied to the structure itself, it's in the UnitInfo entries. This line here to be precise:
<bIgnoreBuildingDefense>0</bIgnoreBuildingDefense>
If set to 1, which all Gunpowder and later units do, then Walls and Castles get no bonuses against them. So you can still be able to build Walls, but they won't be doing you any good if an enemy is attacking you with Grenadiers.
Bushface
Deity
As I've bleated before, castles do provide some form of defence against bombardment by post-gunpowder units and aircraft. What happens is that your bombarder does its percentage of damage as a deduction not from the cultural defence (which is what shows in the city bar when you're attacking with a post-gunpowder unit) but from 100% of whatever the cultural defence is. Say a city has 40% cultural defence and a castle, and you're bombing it with a Stealth Bomber which is rated at doing 20% damage: a successful raid brings the defence down not to 40% minus 20% (i.e. to 20%) but to (100%-20%) of 40%, which leaves a defence of 32%. This means that it takes 5 hits from Stealth Bomber attacks to reduce the defence of any city with a castle down to zero. You'd see the -20% in the popup reporting the attack result and the effect of the -8% in the city bar.
I understand that bombardment is taken from 100% of the current culture defense, however how is this related to the castle? There's 50% protection from bombardment bonus in BTS on top of the 25% from the wall, but isn't the way the bombardment damage counted unrelated to castles? I may very well be wrong, this subject has kind of been a grey area for me.
A Trebuchet normally does 16% damage every time it bombards a city. If a Castle is in place, that would be reduced to 8%, making it more difficult to bring the total defences down.
TheLazyHase
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No 8% but 4%. The principle is exact, but you underestimate the stalemating power of castle.
juanbobo said:
Without wall/castle with 40% culture def it takes 3 strikes to 0% with Trebs. Wall/Castle both raise the minimum def% (to 50 and 100, respectively) and reduce bombard damage by an additive 50% and 25% for non-gunpowder-based siege. Attacking Cannons would attack this 100% Castle like it was 40% (defense-bonus-wise) because they ignore the extra % head-on, but a bombard still takes from the 100% relatively, so it takes 9 cannon bombards to bring down even the 40% if there's a castle. Bombarding with just 4*12% would take the relative % down to 52% from 100%, effectively bringing the "real" 40% bonus down to ~20%.
BTW, if that actually was understood and helped you understand how it works, you deserve a medal. If it got you a headache, sorry!
8% with just Walls, 4% with Castle.
I was just using the Castle as an example on it's own since it's easier to see the relation with just a 50% reduction. With the Walls included it would be only 4% damage, as that would be 75% protection total.
If they become obsolete before you've finished constructing them, they will disappear from your queue and you won't be able to complete them. So no, you won't get the bonuses at all.
