Immortal University XXXV: Justinian

TheMeInTeam

If A implies B...
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Hello all and welcome to the Immortal University! This series was started a long time ago to move a group of the forum's players to the next level. It is now hosted by professors Ignorant Teacher and myself, TMIT. Are you ready for the U?

This is the 35th in the storied series.

We will uphold the university's traditions...smacking down the hapless AI!

Our leader this time around:



Strong UU for its time but placed on an awkward technology. UB is OK. Starting techs are iffy. Traits are solid.

Here's the start:



As usual, this is the first Fractal map I generated. There is some decent food to be had here although this won't win you many HoF games most likely (unless there's like 6 gems just outside the fog or something).

Huts and Events are off.

Copy and Paste of the doctrine:

To play, just extract the WB save file into your worldbuilder saves directory, then play it. Use custom scenario if you want some extra settings to tickle your fancy. This series was designed for people learning immortal, so most people here will be at that level or trying to attain it, although deity players are welcome also. Hell, if you want to play this on NOBLE, go ahead, but I'm not peeling off the AI bonuses. The intention of this and any other game thread I post is to get better. Play whatever level you need in order to improve. Just remember, there are immortal bonuses and that's not going to change unless you WB edit it.

If you are aspiring IMM+, try to remember to add archery back to the barbs in WB. Every time you don't, a deity AI will kill a kitten, although there are a lot of kittens so it's not the end of the world if you prefer easymode barbs .

I do request people to list their difficulty and speed. In terms of updates, well nobody follows that anyway. Post in the manner you feel comfortable. Typical comparison dates are 1 AD, liberalism, and victory/defeat, as well as any major events. If in doubt, go with that.

The save!

View attachment IU XXXV Justinian.zip
 
Settling 1S or 1SW looks good, 1S gives extra hammer, 1SW gives extra commerce (right?) and retains coastal, both riverside for future levee and faster TR.

Edit: Hmm on second thought 1SW is poor. There is no guarantee that there's another 3F/H +1C tile to work so the commerce bonus is wasted and the spot will lack production from hills that we'll want for the imp bonus.
Production beats commerce early on anyhow.
 
Immortal/Marathon to 1 AD

Spoiler :

Other rules: AGG AI, Choose Religions, No Tech Brokering, Lock Modified Assets

Settled 1 SE and did an unorthodox start. Gambled for Polytheism and got it. I chose Christianity for great RP justice and proceeded towards Agriculture, AH.

Our corner is commercially extremely poor so a religion approach might work. I did build ToA and the Oracle in Constantinople without Marble and popped a prophet. I'm up to 21 GPT from the Church of Nativity by 1 AD and am spamming missionaries like the AI Justinian would.

Alexander killed Victoria. This was a time when everyone, including me was hindu. However, my missionaries converted the entire Zululand to christianity so he converted. I quickly followed as Hammu, the Hindu founder was now the pariah and dowed on by Alex and Shaka (and me because they told me to). I'm now working to get Alex to convert to christianity to get a breather.

My plan atm is probably to work my way up to guilds. It's going to be really slow since there's virtually no classic commerce available but the shrine does wonders atm. My current research rate is under 50 BPT and that's abysmal for 1 AD but as it turns out, the map techs really slowly as a whole because there's a lot of wars going on all the time.

Some screens:

My piece of land:


Constantinople:


Tech situation:



Looking forward to other reports to see how people...

Spoiler :
...managed their economy.
 
Okay, I normally play at Noble, so I suppose I will get killed off pretty fast, but what the hey, I will give Immortal a shot.
 
immortal, normal 4000BC -> 900AD


Spoiler :

Hello everyone, I am new here, playing usually emperor and almost have not experience in immortal so I think this thread for me ;))


First time I lost to barbs lol. ugly freaks pillaged all my improvements and I gave up =(
Second try shaka smashed me. He builds pyro, swiched to police state, even made road to my capitol (!) before declaring war.

Third try goes much better.
I checked that no seafood north and settled 1S for +1 hammer.
Tech patch was Agri->AH->Pottery.
Settled two more cities with food resources and horses in small square, chopped libraries there for 2 scientists in each city.

Settled third city near iron, and chopped pack axes+spears



some turns later shaka wardecced me, but this time got pwned. :goodjob:

Bulbed phylosophy and beelined to Civil service, made some tech trades




swiched into serfdom/bureaucracy and started build farms as mad.


Now I have good chances to win lib race and invade to undeveloped shaka with knights
Tech screen :


imho not such bad start position as is looks, cuz all AIs developing very slowly for immortal level


PS
Waiting for critics/advices what I do wrong :rolleyes:


 
So if I open the wb and play it on emperor, will the AI's bonus/starting stuff be any different to normal? Gonna give it a stab regardless but was wondering.
 
Spoiler :
played till 1000 ADish. Weird weird map... I stole a worker from Shaka and am in war with him still (maybe had a 30 turn break in between) I forgot to give the barbarians archery so I had a too easy time with barbs (didn't capture a city guarded by warriors though, which some AIs did). Shaka is really :):):):)ed up because of the war, didn't expand as usual and faaaar behind in tech (he does have elephants though which is the main reason he isn't dead yet... strong bastards..) Anyway my position is pretty good i lost Liberalism, sloppy from me I could have won it but I went for catacraphts (play the map not the leader! d'oh), but Shaka's land will be mine and from there I can get almost any victory, maybe diplomatic will be the easiest because all the big CIVs are pleased or friendly.
 
900AD -> end

Spoiler :


I won lib race, In 1640AD finished Shaka and started grow peacefully to spaceship victory

This was my mistake. Alexander sent spaceship in 1946, and I not even close to him :(


I think I made 2 mistakes :
1) took shaka too late
2)stopped warmongering. I had bad idea that alex and monty will be occupied with each other and it gives me victory.





 
Immortal / Normal - 1 AD
Spoiler :
I don't know if I'll play this one through. I've hardly played civ these days and I don't think it's going to change anytime soon. Who knows? The weekend's coming and I might find some time. Anywho, this is where I stand.

There aren't many commerce resources around and I had to improvise. Some tiles switching here and there and I've been able to avoid strikes and keep researching. I settled the jungle gems area right beside Vicky and decided to research iron working to have some commerce going. When I finished, no one had alphabet so I researched it. When I was about to finish, Vicky and Hammy discovered it too. This is my land now:





Shaka has completed the Mids and switched to PS. He is preparing for war and, unless this is some kind of inner lake map, I'm the only neighbor he has. As I missed the iron, I'm tempted to settle an iron city just to build a couple of axes for defense. Shaka knows how to bring it.

I have a great scientist settled in Constantinople and will have another one for an academy in 5 turns, which is when my next settler will be ready. Nevermind those 13 turns to currency, it will be more. When I hook up iron, I'll have to fire my scientists in order to whip. The gems + cottaged dyes could make up for it, but I don't think they will. Some more screenies:








PS. I'm playing with events on, I like them.
 

Attachments

  • Immortal Student Justinian AD-0001.CivBeyondSwordSave
    164.2 KB · Views: 78
Ignorant Teacher:
Spoiler :
Did you have any doubts about settling Angora? I considered settling up there but didn't dare. It's on flatland I found defending it would be to hard. I really prefer to only have Thessalonica, which I settled right where you did, to defend. It's on a hill and the fish can't be pillaged.
 
Spoiler :


Forgot to save at 1 ad, so this is 100 ad. Also another city to the south on the river with the dye . And this is about my tenth try at this, I got wiped out in every possible way on the first nine. :lol:
And I freely admit checking this thread and stealing ideas from earlier posters. Sue me.
But this is my first Immortal game, , so I am learning as I go. In this game I put my second city on the hill that blocks the Zulu, and stuck 3 archers in there. Since then I have added an ax and spearman and built walls. Perhaps I will survive a bit longer this time.
 
Immortal/normal/easybarbs(how do you give barbs archery and why don't they have it?)
-1AD:
Spoiler :

I settled 1S and set research to agriculture:


Turn 7 I met Shakas scout, a nice blocking spot here too.


Turn13, worker is ready and I let him farm the corn, then mine the pig (I'm imperalistic after all and mining would let my worker do more than just lay down roads).

I settled the city to block Shaka first(2440BC), I actually rarely settle a 2nd city that both requires a tech(fishing in this case) and a border pop. Usually I prefer to settle somewhat close and with food in 1st ring. 3rd city up north 2040BC, then east to grab horses 1560BC and then I decided to take a shot at this:


Giving me this:


I'm a bit unsure if this actually was a good idea. It slowed my expansion down a bit more than I hoped for, but at the same time caste allowed me to assign merchants to save my economy and I used an artist to take a gems-mine from Victoria. Confu got founded up north.

Anyway, 200BC Shaka had suffered my insolence long enough. So be it. I have a few guerilla-archers behind the walls of Thessalonica so my empire is safe, but he slows me down. I'm going to buy peace as soon as he is willing to talk.

Empire at 1AD:




Nice landmass(I'm #2 in land), but only 6 cities, I have a settler ready though. As soon as I hit calendar the economy will be much better. And once I have a prophet I'm building the confu-shrine, still I hope to get my third GS first so I can bulb philo. My fear is mostly Hammurabi and Victoria. I'm dead if they decide to declare on me.
 
Imm / Normal - 500 BC (I don't know the rules about spoiler dates having never done one of these - no time to play through to 1AD today):

Spoiler :
I'm definitely not used to playing immortal. This one is also quite tough with the lack of commerce... I settled 1S for the extra hammer. Second city went SW to block off Shaka a bit and hook up horses - it was a completely pathetic size 1 until very, very recently.

I decided to try and block off some land in the south. Initially I wanted the site of that barb city, but it popped just before I got there. Two settlers made it down south circa 1800-1700 BC. The maintenance would absolutely kill me, but I had Writing and figured I'd go for it.

I was wandering around with my chariot, when I saw this.

Hammy's bowman was healing - must've just killed a barb. Another city I simply couldn't afford financially, but it was just too easy to get.

From this point on, I've been at 0% slider. I was losing 10gpt at 0% for a while, and frantically roading south to open up some trade routes - they came in just before I ran out of money. Meanwhile, I crawled towards Aesthetics, settling my first GS and building libraries everywhere. No BW or IW really hurt. Finally got to Aesthetics circa 650 BC and traded it to MM and Vicky for BW, IW, Pottery, Fishing and Poly. Now I'm on to Lit. I haven't gotten off 0% slider in about 1000 years, and I don't see it happening anytime soon... Current state of the empire:


Shaka discovered IW 2-3t ago. I started a settler in anticipation of trading for BW/IW and now I need to settle iron, while getting granaries and barracks up everywhere. 2 gems will be hooked up in 2t, so I should be ok with money for the moment. I hate the iron position - there are 3 more good sites I'd like to settle, but that won't be happening anytime soon.


Let's see what everyone else is up to...
 
Long time reader, first time poster here. I guess I'll give this a crack.

I'm pretty comfortable on monarch, but I haven't played much above that, so I'll probably end up losing :cry:

Anyways, Immortal/Normal to 25 AD:

Spoiler :

4000 BC: I settle in place, and start with worker/agriculture
3640 BC: Agriculture done, start AH. Meet Shaka
3400 BC: Worker done, start 2nd worker
3320 BC: Meet Hammurabi
3240 BC: Hinduism FIDL
3120 BC: AH done, start researching Mining
2960 BC: 2nd worker done, start warrior
2800 BC: mining done, start researching BW
2680 BC: Warrior done, start settler
2400 BC: settler done, start 3rd worker
2320 BC: Meet vicky, found City 2 near the cow/horse to the east and and begin a monument there
2240 BC: 3rd worker done, start warrior
2160 BC: BW done, switch to slavery and start researching pottery
2120 BC: Warrior done in Constantinople, Start Settler (aided by worker #3 chopping the forest off of the riverside grassland in our capital's 2nd ring)
2000 BC: Barb archer spotted just south of City#2, I whip the monument in City 2 to get a chariot out fast after that.
1960 BC: Settler, monument complete, start producing chariots in both cities to deal with the barb threat.
1920 BC: Emergency whip chariot in City 2. It turned out this wasn't necessary as Hammurabi had a scout nearby which the barb archer went after
1880 BC: I moved my 2nd settler to the chokepoint hill to the west, where i had a warrior camped there. I noticed the turn I was supposed to settle that there was a 1.7 health barb archer in the forest to the northwest of my settle spot. I take the slight risk and settle anyways. Next turn the weakened barb archer suicides itself on my warrior.
1720 BC: Pottery completes, I realize that there is room for a lot of coastal cities here, and start researching fishing with the aim of going for GLH.
1480 BC: Fishing done, start sailing
1160 BC: sailing done, start masonry
950 BC: masonry done, start writing
925 BC - City 4 founded to the south of my capital near the river with pig in the 2nd ring
725 BC - writing done, start hunting for the furs. I lose the GLH :mad: This sets me back bigtime - I had chopped 4 forests to speed it up too. I guess I started going for GLH way too late (should have skipped pottery)
675 BC - hunting done, start Aesthetics since Vicky already has alpha
400 BC: Vicky converts to Confucianism
375 BC: Aesthetics done, trade to hammurabi for IW, meditation. Vicky won't give me alphabet for it so I start partially researching it.
325 BC: Aesthetics to Vicky for Alpha. I gift Shaka mysticism and writing. I start researching Drama for trading purposes
150 BC: I notice that Shaka is in WHEOOHRN, wonder for how long. Hopefully I'm not the target
75 BC: Shaka is really making me nervous here, I gift him alphabet
50 BC: GS born in capital, makes an academy
25 BC: Meet Mansa Musa (founder of Hinduism). Luckily he doesn't have aesthetics yet, so I give it to him for Math + 15g
1 AD: Conf spreads to me, I decide to wait until next turn to convert (Vicky and Hammurabi are both Conf, and Shaka has no religion, so I think Conf will be the dominant religion) so I can hopefully get more for drama (Which I will finish researching next turn)

The situation at 1 AD:


25 AD: Drama to Mansa Musa for Polytheism, Priesthood, Archery. I then convert to Confucianism only to find out that Vicky won't give me anything for drama :cry: I start researching currency even though Vicky and MM already have it - my econ sucks right now. Maybe I can get Vicky to trade me Monarchy for Drama in the future.

Tech Situation at 25 AD:


My thoughts and plan:
I regret not expanding faster, letting Hammurabi beat me to the 3X dye city is probably going to cost me in the long run. I'm also not sure teching drama was a good idea - hopefully I'll be able to get something from Hammurabi or Vicky for it later.

Hammurabi is a pretty friendly leader in my experience, so I think my southern border is safe. Right now a lot depends on who Shaka DOWs upon - if it's me, I'm probably toast. If it's Vicky, that would be awesome.

I think the tech situation is OK, although Mansa Musa is really getting ahead, not surprisingly. My tech rate is really slow right now but I have a fair amount of land, so it'll pick up once I get currency/COL. Shaka is backwards, so if I can avoid war until the Renaissance, I should be able to take some of his land (although he's still unaligned religionwise, so he might still convert to conf, in which case maybe I shouldn't attack him)



I haven't really played on immortal (I did play it once and won when I was cherry picking starts and drew Hatshepsut + double plains gold mine + 6 flood plains in my capital's BFC) so I really don't know if I'm doing well or not.
 
25 AD until end (me giving up)

Spoiler :


150 AD - Shaka DOWs me :cry: I gave him 3 techs too!

I was hovering over his stack, but I guess hitting Printscreen gets rid of the mouseover. It was actually a pretty small stack, but the problem was I built pretty much no military up to this point.



225 AD - Shaka takes City 3 from me



Over the next few turns it's clear that he won't be getting any more cities from me, but losing this important commerce city drops me down to 0% science (with 2 scientists), and currency is now more than 10 turns away. It's pretty clear that I've really screwed up this game and got myself into a deep hole, so I resign.


I should have built a few archers (the city that Shaka took was on the chokepoint hill - it wouldn't have taken too many units to protect the city, although he still would have messed me up badly by pillaging my cottages. I didn't have the iron hooked up at this time, so I didn't have axes either).

This was also a massive scouting fail, as it turns out Vicky was southwest of hammurabi, and not northwest of Shaka like I thought, so I was Shaka's only target.

I'm so bad :cry: Too many games of killing longbows with infantry on monarch, I guess.

 
Immortal / Normal - 1750 AD
Spoiler :
Soon after the last save Shaka declared on me. He took Angora and tried to push to Constantinople, ignoring Thessalonica. I managed to whip some axes and destroyed the three stacks he sent. I retook Angora and asked for peace when I saw he had a war elephant. Those things are strong! The war really set me back, it shut down my research.





A while later, I noticed Shaka had left a present for me in Angora.



In 1130 AD Hammurabi discovered liberalism and I was nowhere near it. BTW, Shaka started another war against me, but this time I had my own elephants so he took nothing.





Then I decided to stop this nuisance once and for all. A beeline to guilds with a short detour for code of laws was made and I spammed workshops everywhere, along with stables and barracks. I already said this, but let me say it again:

Cataphracts rule!!!

I took all of Shaka's continental possesions using only them and spies. Of course he was preparing for war, and guess who the target was. This time, I didn't wait for his declaration, though. He had finished guilds and started gunpowder so I had to make my move. The first 3 or 4 cities were revolted by my spies. The last three didn't have such luxury. You lose more troops, but cataphracts kill aggressive pikemen behind a castle with ease. You lose one and kill the guy. They're not my favorite UU because I usually get guilds late, but they're awesome anyway, especially when you have them coming at 13xp from the factory. For some reason (probably Mansa Musa), Shaka wouldn't capitulate so I just took peace. He's down to 3 cities and - surprise! - he's preparing for war again.









He had the Mids in Ulundi. I'm currently running Representation, Free Speech, Slavery, [default] and Free Religion. I'm beelining democracy and I'll cottage all my land up. Hammurabi already has rifles, but he's just as strong as I am. I guess an attack to Babylon is in order. I'm whipping infra in all my cities, then I'll farm them up to grow, cottage them and finally get to the game. I think I'll attack Hammurabi when I get infantries. This continent might be enough for domination. Or I could just turtle up and go to space, I don't know.










Ignorant Teacher:
Spoiler :
Did you have any doubts about settling Angora? I considered settling up there but didn't dare. It's on flatland I found defending it would be to hard. I really prefer to only have Thessalonica, which I settled right where you did, to defend. It's on a hill and the fish can't be pillaged.

Spoiler :
I wouldn't settle it there, but Shaka was taking too long so I did it. Settling there was a mistake because it made him declare war on me. I guess that only keeping the fish / hill city is better.
 

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  • Immortal Student Justinian AD-1750.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Immortal, normal to 1780 AD:

I'm really enjoying this one:

Spoiler :
I got contact early with Ham and Vic to the S and Shaka who it looks like we are blocking in. The challenge is obvious--lots of great land to claim but Shaka will be coming for us sooner or later (and probably sooner).

I scout the E badly losing some early units and end up with some subpar settling order --I also block Shaka with the hill site with the fish/wine/spice and stack archers there:



I self research IW--I've got jungle to clear and w/o bronze and with war looming I decide against the usual aesthetics path.

I sneak into a great barb city (down to a single archer and my 2 chars are able to pull it off) which later gets obliterated by 2 Han culture bombs:





Shaka comes for me twice, and the second time I underestimate him and lose my trap city with Moai:(. (but take it back). He's built the 'mids and running PS so he's spamming units big time and I eventually end up giving him 5 techs for peace.

I take him out with rifles/cannon and at this point I've just made peace leaving him a single city as I'm worried about him vassaling and I'll be several turns to get his last city (maybe this is a mistake but it would also create a land border that I don't particularly want)

tech screen:



still it should come home as I'll have sushi as well as mining and quite a bit of land.

 

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  • Immortal Student Justinian AD-1780.CivBeyondSwordSave
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