making spies different

In 1.6.4, I added Face Dancer as a Tleilaxu UU of the spy, and Saboteur as an Ordos UU of spy. I also converted the Reverend Mother URU into a spy type unit, although it is higher in the tech tree. Mostly, I did this so that we would have a complete set of units to go into the Unit Art Plan.

I am in the process of adding a promotion requirement to the espionage missions, so that only units with a certain promotion can perform certain missions. For example, I could add an Assassin promotion which enables the Assassination mission. Then a UU could start with Assassin as a free promotion, unavailable to any of the other units.

Let's also assume that I will change spies to have the suspensor promotion by default, so they can always travel on desert. I will be adding at least a "+1 diplomacy modifier to me" mission for the Reverend Mother and, assuming I can get it to work, a "-1 diplomacy modifier for civ #1 against civ #2". We have discussed more about that on the Reverend Mother mechanics thread.

How can we make the Saboteur and Face Dancer different?

* We could disable certain missions except by these units.

* We could make certain promotions only available to them; there are a lot of spy promotions. The Ordos spy gets 1 XP per turn so they will have access to a lot of promotions.

* A number of people have suggested that the Face Dancer should steal promotions from other units on a combat win. The only problem is that the DW promotions are not very interesting for this, and some of them are more equipment related than ability related. So I don't think this would be very interesting.

* Other ideas?

1 Face Dancer might have just incredible bonuses to Revolt/Culture spread actions and perhaps some its own ones. (You know, impersonating, changing face - thats a powerfull weapon)
2 Perhaphs killing settled GPs? is it posible? or just mission that reset GP counter in city. (Scytale story from DM)
3 plant small Stoneburner (like in DM) which will damage stuff 1 tile around.

In the HOTK mod there's a promotion for a general to spawn barb units if he wins a battle in enemy ground. Maybe that could be converted to a spy mission (to incite smugglers to pop up).
BTW, have you thought about adapting the hero system from HOTK?

AnotherPacifist said:

In the HOTK mod there's a promotion for a general to spawn barb units if he wins a battle in enemy ground. Maybe that could be converted to a spy mission (to incite smugglers to pop up).
BTW, have you thought about adapting the hero system from HOTK?

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i dont see this fit into DW

I think this model with recolored (tinted) texture (to black/magenta)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=291259
can be used by BTl Facedancer.

or as option Saboteur, but it surely can be adopted as one of UU spy models

More:
Espionage become very important in DW, much more than it is in BTS.
The problem that AI done know how to transport Spies yet, only militayry units. It is possible to make that AI will use transports/thopters to send spies to other landmass? otherwise AI's civs UU advantage is lost.
Also i think weights for Spy UU civs for espionage should be increased.

One thing that would be very thematic is having a mission which temporarily disables a city's Force Shield. So you can send a spy in the reduce the defences of a city before you attack. You could have another mission for nullifying the effect of the Guard Station perhaps. These missions would be more effective if we reduce the amount of cultural defence as Ahriman has proposed before.

Also, any other missions that bring out the theme of treachery and traitors from the books. Bribery, blackmail, sort of thing.

Deliverator said:

One thing that would be very thematic is having a mission which temporarily disables a city's Force Shield. So you can send a spy in the reduce the defences of a city before you attack. You could have another mission for nullifying the effect of the Guard Station perhaps. These missions would be more effective if we reduce the amount of cultural defence as Ahriman has proposed before.

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There is a revolt mission for such puprose (which drop all defences for 1 turn), and they will be conflicting - one or other will rendered by other to be useless. (EP cost/effect)

Slvynn said:

The problem that AI done know how to transport Spies yet, only militayry units. It is possible to make that AI will use transports/thopters to send spies to other landmass?

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We discussed this briefly on the RM mechanics thread. There is a promotion, suspensor travel, which allows any unit to have all terrain movement and move at double speed on desert. Today, it is possible for a second level spy to get this; that is, they must get Logistics I first. I have not tested whether a high level AI spy would actually use this to travel across desert; that would be an important test. If somebody could set that up, for example as Ordos by using WB to add 5-6 spies with the promotion and watch the AI move them, that would be great.

One possibility is to give all spies this promotion by default, or something similar to worker movement that unlocks the desert terrains with tech. Another possibility would be to add a privateer type unit. This would be a small thopter which can carry spies, great people or other small size units and can travel into enemy borders. If we clone the privateer, then I assume the AI would use it just like it does in a vanilla archipelago game.

One thing that would be very thematic is having a mission which temporarily disables a city's Force Shield

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I suggested this as some kind of Harkonnen factional advantage; Harkonnen could arguably be better at subverting traitors, and Betrayal is a very big Harkonnen theme. This would also help in emphasizing that Harkonnens are *classy* villains with plots and schemes, not just brute strength monsters.

Alternatively, plunging the city into revolt for one turn would have a similar effect in removing cultural defenses.

The challenge would be in the AI; getting them to actually use the ability just before attacking. Espionage may not be the best way to implement it.Perhaps this would work better in another way: create a unit buildable with hammers (national limit 2?), call it a "Traitor" unit, and give it siege unit AI. Have the Traitor have a city bombardment ability that knocks down 100% city walls, but using the ability kills it. I can see the AI using this; bring it up to the city with an invading stack, bombard the walls killing the traitor, then invade.

Today, it is possible for a second level spy to get this; that is, they must get Logistics I first

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Actually a 3rd level spy. You start with nothing, select logistics at level 2, select suspensors at level 3.

Another possibility would be to add a privateer type unit. This would be a small thopter which can carry spies, great people or other small size units and can travel into enemy borders

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I think you mean Caravel (and later, submarine). Privateers are hidden nationality pirates.
Does the AI transport spys in caravels in vanilla? Missionaries, maybe, but not really spies.

* * *
I think the best way to make spies different is to give them access to different espionage missions.

Ordos saboteurs should focus on destryoing buildings and sabotaging units to inflict damage.
(Another possibility: have a saboteur unit that is actually an invisible bomber aircraft with bomber AI, with a long-range sabotage ability that cannot be intercepted and causes stack collateral like frmo a bomber, but at the cost of espionage points each time you use it.)

Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers should focus on affecting diplomacy, affecting tile influence, and adding/removing culture.
(I think we talked a while ago about a spy mission that creates a building that gives a -25% culture output, and the building is removed only if the city is conquered).

Tleilaxu facedancers could either be a combat assassin unit, or could have biological plague type missions.

An interesting idea would be to merge the Tleilaxu plague abilities in with espionage missions.

But the biggest challenges here are AI.

I think - if we are to preserve book lore - actualy Tleilaxu should be related to destroying - remeber Sandburner in Dune Messiah.

I know that Ordos in dune II made it, perhaps we can make different "blow up " missions.
And yeah Riverend Mothers should be very potent at spreading culture missions. (there is one)
perhaps some promotions aviable only to her with bonuses to culture based missions.

I think - if we are to preserve book lore - actualy Tleilaxu should be related to destroying - remeber Sandburner in Dune Messiah.

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If we are to preserve flavor, Tleilaxu should be about bio-weapons, not bombs.

Anyone can set off nukes, that could be an ability on the generic infiltrator.

I like the idea of spy missions whose effect is boosted by promotions on the spy; Saboteurs could have improved explosives 1, 2, 3 promotions, which boost the damage/success chance of spy actions.

There is simple Book lore and Novel where BTl involved in planting Sandburner in Dune Messiah. I dont remember any place in book where they used bio-weapons.

I thought the Stoneburner is set up by dissident Fremen who've obtained it from Offworld. OK, they are provoked by Scytale, but it's not a specifically Tleilaxu technology or strategy.

Ok ok Yep BTl involved. You right, just involved, but still .... and i like Provocation.
Is it possible to add such action?
i have idea of Creating such action when BTl spy give certain promotion (invisible) to some rival's unit on shared tile, and only next turn this unit turn barbarian for 1 turn (promotion wears off) (or just BTL HN)
It's easy to balance adjusting EP cost.
Its also easy to program making check which units have such promotion, and then removing it after certain turn ends (100% chance to wear off from FFH)

I don't think this would work well.

Either:
a) The AI wouldn't understand how to use it.
b) The AI *would* understand how to use it, and they'd use it against the human player, which would be incredibly frustrating (having your own units turn barbarian)

And any unit turned barbarian would then suicide itself against the player, so its really the same as destroying a unit outright.

Besides, turning a faction's own units barbarian doesn't really capture the idea of an agent provocateur very well anyway. This would be much better captured by creating new barbarian units, creating unhappiness or instigating a revolt or rioting.

Perhaps we should go to old good balanced ways of making uu just by ading more promotions to their 0 version (sample smaurai with drill II as version of maceman), at real, best new ways are old transformed and adapted ones.

Then FD starts with +2 promotions towards unhapiness and unhealthy, bonus to revolt mission performance, and some special mission related to it - 1 new action (perhaps revolt that lasts 3 turns and not 1?), small rate of XP gain.

Saboteur bonus to sabotage (destroy building, production, improvement) and some special thing that blow up stuff - 1 new action , damaging units , great rat of xp gain.

RM great bonuses to culture spread and diplo stuff mentioned in RM thread, medium rate of xp gain.

+ number of promotions which increase output/effectivness of different missions.

Ahriman said:

I like the idea of spy missions whose effect is boosted by promotions on the spy; Saboteurs could have improved explosives 1, 2, 3 promotions, which boost the damage/success chance of spy actions.

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These are already part of the super spies modcomp in the game. This thread gives the main documentation:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=300992

You can also see the details in the hover help for the existing spy promotions.In the pedia, select the spy unit; this shows which of the many promotions are relevant to spies.

I'm not sure where all the vanilla espionage missions are documented, but I found two good strategy articles:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=289036
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=274135

So, the saboteur could be the only one with access to alchemist; the face dancer could be the only one with access to deception or escape artist; etc. But my key question was, is this enough to differentiate them?

is this enough to differentiate them?

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No; like I said, I think they need access to different missions. Some missions, ONLY a reverend mother can perform, some missions, ONLY a saboteur can perform, etc.

Different missions + different promotions that boost missions = interesting differentiation.

But its a lot of work, both coding and AI.

From memory, Planetfall tinkered with the idea of tactical spy missions, but I don't think it got anywhere (I haven't tried the latest versions of Planetfall for months). There was a thread on it:http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325046

Ahriman said:

No; like I said, I think they need access to different missions. Some missions, ONLY a reverend mother can perform, some missions, ONLY a saboteur can perform, etc.

Different missions + different promotions that boost missions = interesting differentiation.

But its a lot of work, both coding and AI.

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What I wrote in post #1 is that I am adding the internal ability to limit the existing missions by promotions. So it is *zero* work. Well, a couple of seconds to add the promotion, I guess.

Please suggest which combination of the existing missions and promotions would be interesting, and I can implement it in very little time. I will have a diplomacy mission with +1 and -1 for the reverend mother.

Although the AI may not make perfect decisions about the different espionage missions, it does make *some* decisions, and you can see all the different missions being carried out by the AI.

Oh i think i posted it before in previous post, based on Ahrimans and my thoughts (i following your ideas, you see i am easy to convince )


1. Ordos Saboteur.
High speed XP rate gain.
Speciality: Sabotage (special promotions)
Destroy Improvement (passive bonus for EP cost)
Destroy Building (Lowered EP cost, + Success Rate)
Destroy Production (Lowered EP cost, + Success rate)

Special mission: Plant Bomb //i dunno name (Small Collaterial damage to enemy stack on tile, improvable with promotions , only on rival culture)



2. BTl Face Dancer
Low speed XP rate gain, subject to Axotl Tanks
Speciality: Provocation/Harm (special promotions)
Plant Unhapinnes (passive bonus ,Lowered EP cost)
Plant Unhealthy (Lowered EP cost, passive bonus)


Special mission: Revolt (special) (3 promotions : +1 turn lenght of revolt > +1 turn > city loses culture borders, as real revolt )


3. RM
Medium speed XP gain. hight cost and tech requirement.
Can train units.
Prescient.
Specialities: Diplomacy , Culture and Spy Defence (special promotions )
Plant culture (great bonuses to effect)
Anti-Spionage( special promotion - Truthsayer, prq - defence II, thwarts automatically all spies in units visibility range)

Special mission: Influence Diplomacy (as described in RM thread +/- 1