The Doviello!!!!

Tasunke

Tasunke

Crazy Horse
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
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the 1800s
Ok, so I was looking at units of the Doviello, and I happend upon the Battlemaster. I mean ... ive seen the unit a billion times, but only recently did I notice that it has +50% strength!!! in tundra. (but loses the champion's 25% vs melee)

Im just like WTH!!! This is another gimped psuedo-strat for the Doviello which has no backing. I mean ... the best way to use this advantage is AGAINST! the illians, by using a sun adept to scorch the ice into tundra, thusly beefing up your own units against them.

No I say, FAIL! I think there should be a way for the Doviello ... im thinking Ice I and Winterborne combo ... to "freeze" the land. This would be a simple plains -> tundra conversion. Nothing big ... maybe Ice II + Winterborne could be "deepfrost" which turns even grassland -> tundra (and maybe desert to tundra, bypassing spring).

Ok, look. We all know tundra sucks ... yet Doviello are supposed to live in it. Now ... a lot of mod-mods take the Duin Halfmorne route and turn them into a total were-wolf civ, with tons of spirit animals, but no! Thats not them, not in my mind, not how they are in base FFH either. They like wolves, sure. They have *some* werewolves in their army, led by Duin. Sure. But no spirit tigers, or spirit lions, ect. They live in tundra, scraping by. they are SUPPOSED!! to be good rushers.

What I suggest is allow their tundra to also yield + 1 hammers. It shouldn't be too hard to do.

Doviello are supposed to be good rushers ... but that NEVER happens. They also get stronger units on tundra, but they cannot USE tundra. So ... I have a couple suggestions to increase their productivity to make them better rushers.

One idea is very simple, to have their palace increase hammer production by 50%, similar to the Infernal Palace. Another Idea is to give them a UB, probably a Hunting Lodge UB, which grants +1 hammer in the city per tundra tile in the BFC.

I would *like* for winterborne to give doublemovement in tundra, and for ice to take up 2 moves (like desert does), and for winterborne to not give *doublemovement* in ice but ignores move-penalties. (or just double movement in all) ... but is that too patterned? (as in, like all other racial promos)

Im not saying we need to change a whole lot ... I mean there are mod mods for that ... but its kind of painful seeing the Doviello in this wierd twilight between rushers and tundra with neither being properly addressed.
 
Personally, I think the Doviello and the Illians should both treat tundra as plains and ice as grassland (which is similar to +1 :hammers: on tundra and +2 :food: on ice, but different in that they would have much more freedom in what they can build on those tiles and in how riverside :commerce: bonuses function).

I like your idea about tundra/ice movement with winterborn. Ice especially is just too friendly to non-winterborn civs.

As for Doviello rushes, in the current state of the mod you pretty much need to take your three starting units and attack someone nearby (with worldspell support) for it to work (against an AI). The AI is just too good at building and supporting units (at upper difficulty levels, anyway) to make even a +50% :hammers: bonus matter. It takes about 3 Warriors to take out 1 Warrior defending a city (2 with luck on flat ground, 4 or more without luck on a hill), so you would need +200% :hammers: to keep up the same pace - and that ignores AI production bonuses or the need to outproduce your opponent to make up for any Warriors produced on the way to their city, as well as the long-term cost to your economy of trying to support that many units. Unless there is a change to weaken AI production in the early game, it's probably better to view the Doviello as an early raider civ rather than an early rusher civ.
 
Does anyone know how to edit this in the xml? I looked under temple of the hand and couldn't figure out the code that changed the plot to ice. I think the Doviello should have a building that gives them more food or hammers on tundra and changes the plot to tundra too (if it changes the plot I think I would prefer food, similar to Illians with snow/ice). That way they could at least use their tundra strength on defense if away from their capital. I play high to low a lot and they are always in last place. I think because they are handicapped by the tundra, which really puts them at a disadvantage vs. other civs' starting cities.
 
Tasunke said:
Ok, so I was looking at units of the Doviello, and I happend upon the Battlemaster. I mean ... ive seen the unit a billion times, but only recently did I notice that it has +50% strength!!! in tundra. (but loses the champion's 25% vs melee)

Im just like WTH!!! This is another gimped psuedo-strat for the Doviello which has no backing. I mean ... the best way to use this advantage is AGAINST! the illians, by using a sun adept to scorch the ice into tundra, thusly beefing up your own units against them.

No I say, FAIL! I think there should be a way for the Doviello ... im thinking Ice I and Winterborne combo ... to "freeze" the land. This would be a simple plains -> tundra conversion. Nothing big ... maybe Ice II + Winterborne could be "deepfrost" which turns even grassland -> tundra (and maybe desert to tundra, bypassing spring).

Ok, look. We all know tundra sucks ... yet Doviello are supposed to live in it. Now ... a lot of mod-mods take the Duin Halfmorne route and turn them into a total were-wolf civ, with tons of spirit animals, but no! Thats not them, not in my mind, not how they are in base FFH either. They like wolves, sure. They have *some* werewolves in their army, led by Duin. Sure. But no spirit tigers, or spirit lions, ect. They live in tundra, scraping by. they are SUPPOSED!! to be good rushers.

What I suggest is allow their tundra to also yield + 1 hammers. It shouldn't be too hard to do.

Doviello are supposed to be good rushers ... but that NEVER happens. They also get stronger units on tundra, but they cannot USE tundra. So ... I have a couple suggestions to increase their productivity to make them better rushers.

One idea is very simple, to have their palace increase hammer production by 50%, similar to the Infernal Palace. Another Idea is to give them a UB, probably a Hunting Lodge UB, which grants +1 hammer in the city per tundra tile in the BFC.

I would *like* for winterborne to give doublemovement in tundra, and for ice to take up 2 moves (like desert does), and for winterborne to not give *doublemovement* in ice but ignores move-penalties. (or just double movement in all) ... but is that too patterned? (as in, like all other racial promos)

Im not saying we need to change a whole lot ... I mean there are mod mods for that ... but its kind of painful seeing the Doviello in this wierd twilight between rushers and tundra with neither being properly addressed.
Click to expand...

I agree with you completely about the Battlemaster, kept meaning to change it.

Also, while RifE has Duin as a Doviello leader (as with the scenarios), they get no werewolf units beyond a single replacement; They just become guaranteed to get 'Duin' (his replacement), and their units can take Cannibalism. I am 100% with you on the totem animals; I love the idea, but not for the Doviello. ;)
 
Some ideas for improving the Doviello -
Let their scouts summon wolves and replace the world spell with something decent.
Make their roads into 'hunting trails' that give an extra food on tundra, deer, furs.
Any Doviello melee unit that defeats an opponent with better weapons can inherit that weapon type.
Start Battlemasters with the shock promotion or valour (make these guys live up to their name!).

At the moment there's a bug whereby the AI Doviello can summon wolves with the world spell but then never moves them. I regularly see stacks of tens of wolves just sitting about doing nothing.
 
Emptiness said:
Personally, I think the Doviello and the Illians should both treat tundra as plains and ice as grassland (which is similar to +1 :hammers: on tundra and +2 :food: on ice, but different in that they would have much more freedom in what they can build on those tiles and in how riverside :commerce: bonuses function).

I like your idea about tundra/ice movement with winterborn. Ice especially is just too friendly to non-winterborn civs.

As for Doviello rushes, in the current state of the mod you pretty much need to take your three starting units and attack someone nearby (with worldspell support) for it to work (against an AI). The AI is just too good at building and supporting units (at upper difficulty levels, anyway) to make even a +50% :hammers: bonus matter. It takes about 3 Warriors to take out 1 Warrior defending a city (2 with luck on flat ground, 4 or more without luck on a hill), so you would need +200% :hammers: to keep up the same pace - and that ignores AI production bonuses or the need to outproduce your opponent to make up for any Warriors produced on the way to their city, as well as the long-term cost to your economy of trying to support that many units. Unless there is a change to weaken AI production in the early game, it's probably better to view the Doviello as an early raider civ rather than an early rusher civ.
Click to expand...

The Doviello were the most recent game I played to finish, and I rushed successfully, but also got *extremely* lucky. (RoP in the BFC, catching 5 of Sabatiel's warriors on flat terrain, Sabatiel AND Os-Gabella having settled Great Prophets, plus a GP and a GE for myself.... yeah.) I started thinking about ways to make an early rush actually achievable.

My suggestion would be to give Lucian 3 Str base, and have him start with a Great Commander attached. It may not be a "rush", but with a bit of animal/barb prep, you could have something like a C3+Shock+March Lucian supported by 4-6 warriors, slowly besieging down your target's starting city. Additionally, you'd need fewer relatively risky early combats with Lucian plus you'd be able to push him a bit further in general before grouping him with your attack force. Having a GC around to settle in the mid-game would also smooth out their crankdown.

I'll probably give that a shot next time I start a Doviello game.
 
You could allow the Deepening for the Doviello. The Illians hardly use it as they can anyway transform their and their opponents' land into ice quite easily, but for the Doviello if it is their only way to transform the land into tundra they might use it. Make it repeatable and we have a decent, but nevertheless risky strategy (as you damage your land as well and you don't know which tiles are transformed and which not).
 
One thing, and one thing only, endears me to the Doviello and makes me wanna play them. Their Tier 4 units just look so damn cool. Skulds (massive spiky armour and cool swords), Verdandi (Halberds! Only decent polearm weilding units now that Radiant Guards have swords) and Berserker UU (can't remember name, but who needs a sword when you have a CORPSE!). Too bad getting the Dov to Tier 4 is near impossible in a competitive game. Wanna see some decent traits for their leaders, as well as some sort of Civic bonus to put them better in line with the rest of the world. Same tile bonuses as Illians would help some.
 
I've never ever heard anyone say anything about how awesome the fact that you can train troops from enemy workers is!!! I think that's the main, most awesome Doviello mechanic. Not only that the large number of usually worthless AI workers can supply your army with constant fresh cannon fodder, you can also leave them defending the eventual city you prefer not to raze! Anyway, all in all, it's a huge production bonus in my view, as upgrading them to Sons of Asena at least is very cheap and with the money from the pillaged cities, there should be no problem in cranking legions of battlemasters.

To be honest, i didn't try them out in the latest patches, with the better AI, but I used to steamroll anything in earlier versions (41.d -).
 
Azhral said:
One thing, and one thing only, endears me to the Doviello and makes me wanna play them. Their Tier 4 units just look so damn cool. Skulds (massive spiky armour and cool swords), Verdandi (Halberds! Only decent polearm weilding units now that Radiant Guards have swords) and Berserker UU (can't remember name, but who needs a sword when you have a CORPSE!). Too bad getting the Dov to Tier 4 is near impossible in a competitive game. Wanna see some decent traits for their leaders, as well as some sort of Civic bonus to put them better in line with the rest of the world. Same tile bonuses as Illians would help some.
Click to expand...
I agree. The Doviello have a lot of flavor, but they are very weak in mechanics.

For starters, both the Doviello leaders have the strength of minor leaders, not major ones. Each one only has one 'real' trait; Sure, Mahala has Ingenuity(which is useful for the Doviello, because of their upgrade-anywhere mechanic) and Charadon has Barbarian, but these aren't real traits... more of a flavor. Both Khazad leaders have Ingenuity plus two other traits, and the Clan and Infernal have Barbarian plus two other traits. Why do the Doviello have these and only one other trait?

From the lore, it seems to me that the Doviello survive in harsh conditions because of their strong leaders. I would suggest giving Mahala the Organized trait as well, because if you read her entry she does a good job bringing the clan together(Charismatic would work too). Charadon should probably get Expansive or Raiders. This would be the first step in making them viable.

Secondly, the Doviello don't like living in tundra. They just do it because there is no-where else for them to go. Instead of making them good in tundra, just reduce the penalties; +1 hammers in tundra and possibly Ice is a good idea(I don't think they should get 2 food on Ice, that should remain to the Illians). Give Battlemasters the +25% versus melee back, even if you reduce the Tundra bonus by 25%. Finally, I think they should start with a "Survivalism" technology(similar to the Lanun's Seafaring) that allows them to build Camps without Hunting and gives Camps +1 food.

Maybe instead of Winterborn, they could start with an Improvisation promotion that functions as a weapon type(it is replaced by Bronze, then Iron and Mithril) that gives +25% strength. Bronze would still be stronger, but they wouldn't need Copper or Bronze Working to get this... Maybe Mining through.
 
Thats actually a bloody good idea there Onionsoldier.

Doviello palace provides new resource (Improvised Weapons). New Dov tech (Survivalism) allows early building of camps (or perhaps a unique improvement. Hunting Cabin, can only be build on Tundra, cannot be built if another Hunting Cabin is within 3 tiles [same mechanic as Pirate Ports], provides +2 food), +1 food on camps and allows use of Improvised Weapons resource. Improvised weapons are replaced by Bronze Weapons and give +25% city attack (Matching the Beastmans bonus, which can then be removed).

As for the traits, perhaps giving both Mahala and Dick Ingenuity and Barbarian.
 
I like the tundara +1 production idea, it isnt too overpowered, but gives the Doviello something to work with.

it also seperates the Illian from dovildo, Illian getting 2 food on snow, but not so good on tundara, while the Doviello getting +1 hammer on tundara dont operate so well on snow, but well on tundara, the hammers make for good rushing, though they still need to struggle with food.

interesting enough the Illian deepening ritual didnt make much extra snow, but mainly tundara, effectively hurting some of their cities that dont have temples of the hand (i didnt build temples of the hand in cities with nearby floodplains). maybe the Dovilello should also get access to the depeening ritual.

this makes an interesting battle with the tundara based Doviello production powerhouses vs the Illians prefering snow, getting a lot of food but limited production (besides a few lumbermills in forrested snow).

then if the Dovilello takes an Illian city they would want to turn the useless snow to tundara, and if the illian takes a Dovilello tundara city then they would want to turn the useless tundara into snow.
 
Doviello:

leaders- Charadon, Agg/Cha/Barb Mahala, Raiders/Ingenuity/Expansive

terrain - Ice/Snow +1 Hammer ... Tundra +1 Hammer (Tundra reaches +2 hammer @ hunting)

Improvements- Workshops are now naturalistic tool carving posts ... no food penalty, -1 hammer, -1 gold

Starting Tech "Survivalism"- can build hunting trails-> +2 food for all camps, road movement

Units/Worldspells- scouts, hunters, rangers, and beastmasters can cast "Summon Wolf"

BattleMasters should have 5% health gain per battle (part of the unit), 30% vs melee, and 30% tundra strength

Worldspell will be "Call of Savagery" -gives all existing living units the "Savage" promotion, which grants +20% combat bonus, and +10% health after combat (combination of a combat star and cannibalism) ... Savage promo would have a 5% chance of wearing of per turn (perhaps).
 
I don't think you can give a leader of the civ associated with the god of war who provides Chaos mana the Organized trait. Expansive or another Charismatic may fit better.
 
True Senethro ... Organized does seem a tad off. It wasn't my original idea, so I will edit post to give them something else I might like better.
 
Blah. I had a whole post written up and then I got disconnected and lost it. Okay, quick summary:

Azhral: I agree with most of your idea, but I don't think Charadon should get Ingenuity and Mahala Barbarian. Charadon is anything but ingenious, and Mahala doesn't strike me as the barbaric type. Besides, then both leaders would be identical... why not just have one?

Tasunke: I think most of your suggestions are way too powerful. Doviello would go from underdog to top dog. 4-trait leaders when most civs only have two, and a few (Like Perpentach) three with penalties or reasons. Also, +2 hammers on tundra and +1 on plains is too much. They would become a production powerhouse, better than the dwarves. I do like the worldspell idea, though.

Senethro: Not all Doviello are associated with Camulos. Charadon is certainly, but Mahala seems to have a better idea of what's going on. It's also mentioned that Saverous was taken from Doviello tribe that worshipped Kilmorph.
 
Ok, my suggested Changes have been polished. TUndra starts at +1 hammer, @ Hunting upgrades to +2 hammer (is this possible? if not I would prefer +2 hammer for TUndra)

plains no longer provides +1 hammer. The Dov are better at surviving the Harsh Tundra than the Harsh Savannah.

I still think the units, workshop, and worldspell are not too overpowered or anything. Workshops for the Doviello are less industrialized, so they don't reduce food, however they give 1 less hammer and 1 less gold.

I like the animal-handling units able to summon wolves, cause it fits their flavor. Their worldspell, to me, also fits their flavor in being able to survive battle after battle due to their lust of chaos, war, as well as their ability to survive in a pinch. The Battlemaster unit also feels strong enough to me. I *was* going to suggest a 40% melee bonus, although as you said, probably too powerful. Therefore 30% vs melee and 30% tundra strength sounds good to me. Also, the 5% health after battle seems like a small yet fitting bonus for the Battlemasters. Afterall, who better than the battlemasters should be able to withstand hoardes of warriors. (other than Aeron's chosen of course).

Personally, I think that Sons of Asena and Battlemasters should be able to recieve Aerons' Chosen at 10th level. Seems fitting enough, if they level high enough. Maybe 6th level if that doesnt seem too powerful ...
 
Battlemasters are fine as they are. They're an Axeman + a cheap upgrade, so they're cheaper than regular champions. Its acceptable that they are weaker.

The terrain changes you're proposing are still just a bit much. At the very most +1 hammers on tundra would work. You'll see Doviello settling those 50/50 grass/tundra cities that would be marginal for other civs but acceptable for them.

As for the current Doviello worldspell, I like it. The wolves offensive strength varies with the Str of the unit they're generated from, so they're never quite obsolete. Free cheap fodder units to throw at cities or mega stacks that can appear at any time suits me just fine. Saves carrying the catapults about and lets you get that one big decisive victory needed to get a bunch of your units to level 4.
 
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