Dr kossin #12

K

kossin

Deity
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
9,572
Location
Canada
EDIT: After careful thinking, I'm going to forgo this map and re-work the idea behind the DR series a bit. It's more-or-less clear now that I can win on Immortal at a good ratio (9W-2L in this series and several more on Immortal offline (and a Deity win at that).
I will not take the series to Deity yet as it takes too much time to play for me on that level at the time being. I will however stop having the maps checked for isolation and maybe I can think of something else to spice things up some more.

Welcome to Dr kossin #12, which stands for Daily Round.

Yes, I will aim to get in a update every day - as long as I have the time (work, girlfriend, etc). I might skip a day here and there but I will compensate by playing an extra round here and there.
Now I don't plan on very long updates, sometimes just 10 turns, and will stop at strategic times.

That being said, I'm not a great player but I can manage at times. My goal is to improve and, if possible, help others improve as well. I couldn't beat Noble when I started reading this forum (could barely beat Warlord) and I am now in the process of getting comfortable on Immortal.

That's where you come in. I need your ideas, your criticism and everything else you can throw at me - even if you can't beat Noble. Since I plan on an update everyday, there will be mistakes from my part and I might not always get the best advice going forward. That's life!

You are also welcome to shadow this game, although I would prefer you post it in spoilers and no further than I have already played. You can still shadow the whole game and post it but it is important that no one uses that knowledge (land, AIs) to help me.

Without further time wasting, let's go to the game.

Dr kossin #12

Game settings:
Immortal
Fractal (I've had a friend check that it is not isolated or semi-isolated)
Normal Speed
No Huts/Events
BULL 1.0+BUG 4.2 in Custom Assets
Everything else normal.

The leader this time is Gilgamesh! From the 'weakest' leader to one of the strongest ones, and a Creative at that.


+2 culture/city, fast libraries, theatres, colloseums, walls, castles and Archery/Gunpowder units start with City Garrison 1 and Drill 1.

His UB: a Courthouse that comes with Priesthood and that costs 30 less hammers.


His UU: an Axeman with only 25% bonus against melee but with 1 extra strength


We start with The Wheel and Agriculture.


It's the most expensive combo and a good one in general.

And the start:


Here's what I think is in the fog:


3 pigs... hmm looks like a GP farm I think. ;)

Looks like a AH>Mining>BW opening.

I'm guessing we're in the southern half of the map and that there might be a large desert expanse to our west ( = bad ).

Other than that... I hope this game is harder than the last ones :D

I've hosted the images on Imageshack for this game and hopefully they will not go down anymore from now on.
 
That's a lot of pork.

I suppose there could be some seafood to the east in that coastal area. It would only cost a turn to take a peek 1NE if you don't see food. (I know, horrible.) 1NE would give up some production I suppose but if there is a seafood tile that'd be even more sublime for a GP farm.
 
In place or 1 NE. Lose a few forested tiles, might gain more resources or stuff. Although odds are it's probably a resource, I'd say either iron or horses.
 
Gah, I hate pig hills! Hmm, on second thoughts 2x pig hill here is really quite nice. You can switch them between mines and pastures as required and still be well fed from the third. Build an extra worker and have him permanently working near the capital, with both pig hills always one turn away from switching into hammers or breads mode. It really could be some GP farm if you stuff a few early wonders in there too.
 
@Kossin, did you also have trouble with photobucket pictures? Regarding AH, if you think you'll need hunting you might research that first for the 20% discount on ah, depends a bit on how much delay you'll have on those pigs, more than 2 turns would be unacceptable.
 
Dirk1302, I think hunting->AH is 4 turns delay after the worker is produced.
On a side note: since there is no chance for resources otherwise, I guess the grassland would be horse (I think nothing but pasture type can spawn next to the pig). If so, the production of this city is just huge, if you get GLH or so, you might as well start over.
 
TheMeInTeam said:
In place seems kind of obvious.
Click to expand...
Agree.

Jaaboo said:
That's a lot of pork.

I suppose there could be some seafood to the east in that coastal area. It would only cost a turn to take a peek 1NE if you don't see food. (I know, horrible.) 1NE would give up some production I suppose but if there is a seafood tile that'd be even more sublime for a GP farm.
Click to expand...
Possibly, although I'd get more ocean tiles. Maybe worth 1 turn if it allows not to waste a seafood.

UWHabs said:
In place or 1 NE. Lose a few forested tiles, might gain more resources or stuff. Although odds are it's probably a resource, I'd say either iron or horses.
Click to expand...
Horses would be too much fun now, wouldn't it? :D

Soirana said:
i suggest regenerating map. poor AI deserves at least shadow of a chance to win.
Click to expand...
heh, yea. I'm starting to get bored on Immortal. Maybe I'll try cranking up the settings in the future.

Kid R said:
Gah, I hate pig hills! Hmm, on second thoughts 2x pig hill here is really quite nice. You can switch them between mines and pastures as required and still be well fed from the third. Build an extra worker and have him permanently working near the capital, with both pig hills always one turn away from switching into hammers or breads mode. It really could be some GP farm if you stuff a few early wonders in there too.
Click to expand...
Not a bad idea... will have to see how things go wonder-wise.

Dirk1302 said:
@Kossin, did you also have trouble with photobucket pictures? Regarding AH, if you think you'll need hunting you might research that first for the 20% discount on ah, depends a bit on how much delay you'll have on those pigs, more than 2 turns would be unacceptable.
Click to expand...
Photobucket: 10GB bandwidth is the problem... I've got 3 accounts there already and I keep busting the limit. Some of my other games aren't viewable because of it. In any case, Imageshack seems to be working fine and there is no limit there I think.

The worker will be there 4 turns before AH is completed with hunting>AH. He can always start farming for 3 turns before moving on to a pasture.
Since beakers look more scarce than food, this might be the better approach... although it isn't necessary unless there's deer/ivory or the need for Archery early.
 
kossin said:
heh, yea. I'm starting to get bored on Immortal. Maybe I'll try cranking up the settings in the future.
Click to expand...

Soirana said:
i suggest regenerating map. poor AI deserves at least shadow of a chance to win.
Click to expand...

I love these DR games because I'm struggling with immortal too, but they would be even better if you asked whoever checks the maps for isolation to stop giving such good starts :mischief:
 
kossin said:
Photobucket: 10GB bandwidth is the problem... I've got 3 accounts there already and I keep busting the limit. Some of my other games aren't viewable because of it. In any case, Imageshack seems to be working fine and there is no limit there I think.

The worker will be there 4 turns before AH is completed with hunting>AH. He can always start farming for 3 turns before moving on to a pasture.
Since beakers look more scarce than food, this might be the better approach... although it isn't necessary unless there's deer/ivory or the need for Archery early.
Click to expand...
I switched to imageshack too. They have bandwidth limit but it's 100 mb/hour instead of 10 gb/month. We won't crack that i think. It's a bit more work to get the hang of it but after some research it works at least as well as bucket. If photobucket keep their annoying strat up they'll be out of business soon and rightly so.

I'd say 4 turns is too much to delay ah, you can leverage the food with bw pretty soon.
 
Hi

Just a question for my own benefit. In a start like that I might end up mining one if not both of those piggy hills especiallly if there ended up being seafood or some other food in the bfc. Would that be a smart way to go or no?

Kaytie
 
^Don't think so although it's not that bad. It's more work on micro but it's possible to convert all the food to hammers with whipping although there's some planning involved in how to do it. whipping settlers for 3 pop earns 90 H immediately and you can grow to 6 again and repeat without incurring too much unhappiness especially when queing a worker next. You just won't match that amount of hammers while working mined pigs. So basically you lose out on 1H for every mined pig vs pastured pig.

Also without whipping, if you queue settlers/workers you just build them faster with pastured pigs than with mined pigs. It's just as in real life, pigs don't belong in mines.
 
Kid R said:
I love these DR games because I'm struggling with immortal too, but they would be even better if you asked whoever checks the maps for isolation to stop giving such good starts :mischief:
Click to expand...
Trouble is a map has already been generated and checked for all 52 leaders... also that person doesn't play civ so start strength wasn't an issue at the generation time (combined with the fact that I was trying to move up back when I started).

Would it be more helpful if I went into more details at times? Any pointers you'd like to be more detailed?

Dirk1302 said:
I switched to imageshack too. They have bandwidth limit but it's 100 mb/hour instead of 10 gb/month. We won't crack that i think. It's a bit more work to get the hang of it but after some research it works at least as well as bucket. If photobucket keep their annoying strat up they'll be out of business soon and rightly so.

I'd say 4 turns is too much to delay ah, you can leverage the food with bw pretty soon.
Click to expand...
Yea, I thought the same at first. Then I got my hands on the ImageShack Uploader and things have become so incredibly easy for batch actions.
My next worry will be CFC attachment limit :) I'm already halfway there!

KaytieKat said:
Hi

Just a question for my own benefit. In a start like that I might end up mining one if not both of those piggy hills especiallly if there ended up being seafood or some other food in the bfc. Would that be a smart way to go or no?

Kaytie
Click to expand...
Dirk answered it better than I could. Should the happy cap ever become an issue, then maybe I would consider mining for extra hammers rather than more food. With this much food surplus, I'll have to look for early Monarchy and/or happy resources.

Since Ziggurats come with Priesthood, an argument can be made for trying an Oracle gambit to nab something pricey... MC/whatever is available at the time or something that fits the map.
 
I'm going to do a greedy REX write-up

Spoiler :

Calculation 1:
Growing size to size 3 or build a settler. Cost: 2*12*11/9=29 1/3. Extra yield is 4. Ratio is <8, which is superb. A new city working a 6 yield tile is 100/7=14. Obviously growing to size 2 will also be better than building a settler.

Calculation 2:
Growing to size 4 or build a settler. Cost: 2*13*15/12=32.5. Extra yield is 3 (and a commerce), ratio is 11, but I elect to build a settler at size 3 because my worker can't improve as fast as I'm growing. It's followed by a settler, which will finish improving and roading the horse.
Calculation 3: extra maintenance for city. 0.9+0.6*1+6/3.5=3.2, round down to 3 from slight immortal bonus. I lost the screenshot, but -3 was accurate for the city between cow and rice. If you've gotten a sense for these calculations, you should be pretty sure city #2 should grow first.

We need a commerce source, luckily we have a gold mine, which is worth half a yield and 3 and a half cottages. How much maintenance will it cost?
Calculation 4: 0.9+0.6*2+4/3.5=3.24, round down to 3 from immortal bonus. Should put us at -6 at 100%, although we might lose another from civic maintenance.




We chop to help build a chariot due to our high food, low production capital. We finish the warrior in city 2 and send him to fogbust to the south to prevent barb city spawning.

Next good city is that fish/wheat cow. Distance is 5+4.5

Calculation 5: 0.9+0.6*2+9.5/3.5=4.8. Immortal bonus gives us 4.6. Ok, we could either grow either of our cities or take it. The 4th city will have initial yield of 7 and 1 commerce and can go up to 13 and 3 commerce. How many cottages would we have to switch in to reach 8 bpt? Gold mine covers 7, horse 1, city #2, #4 and 4 will cover 1 each for 12, city maintenance is 10-11, so we don't have to compensate with cottages yet.
City #4 yield is 100/7=14.3
Growing city #2 to size 3 yields at best a riverside cottage. At a mine-riverside exchange rate, that's 2*12*9/5=43.2. 42.3/2=21.15.
Growing city #3 to size 3, pre-masonry we can net +2 yield from a mine or the lake. The gold mine is too valuable not to work, so that's 2*12*7/3=56. Ratio is 56/2=28, not very good
Growing city #1 to size 5 is 2*14*15/9=46 2/3. Best tile is mine or lake, ratio is 23 1/3., not very good.



Unfortunately, the barb city means we can't take the fish/gold mine immediately. There might be a city to the west of city #4, so I build a settler for it just in case. Now that most city sites have been exhausted, the the pure REX phase is near an end and it will soon be time for our cities to grow.


Wait, we see one fish city! It's distance is considerable: 9+4.5=13.5 Maintenace will be 0.9+0.6*4+13.5/3.5=7.15. We can work our 4th cities wheat and later a barb gold mine if we garrison it, which will pay for its maintenance. For academic purposes, pre-gold mine how much is it worth? The city produces 1 commerce, so lose 6 yield from having to switch 3 mines to lakes/grassland cottages. That gives us a net 0 yield pre-gold mine, so growing will be better if we weren't creative and could steal the gold mine.

I end up waiting on the city so I can get writing faster, but there you have it. Using calculations, REX as greedy as possible. After I take down the barb city and place the city on the south, I get pyramids and am #3 in land with good tech and am in a good position to take out Washington.
 
kossin said:
Trouble is a map has already been generated and checked for all 52 leaders... also that person doesn't play civ so start strength wasn't an issue at the generation time (combined with the fact that I was trying to move up back when I started).

Would it be more helpful if I went into more details at times? Any pointers you'd like to be more detailed?
Click to expand...

No, for me the write-ups are great - anyway we can always ask more detailed questions as you go along.

It doesn't feel quite right to complain as it's you doing all the hard work, but it is starting to look as if many of the maps are going to feature a
Spoiler :
very strong capital situated on a large, green, easily defendable peninsula.
I don't think those kinds of starts are really typical, and in any case you've played a good number already so readers have seen what to do now when these maps come up (block, fill, take over neighbouring AIs one by one).

Why not discard the maps you have and play random ones now you're comfortable on immortal? Various levels of isolation are common conditions so it seems a bit of a cheat to skip those if our eventual goal is to be able to win a high percentage of random starts. I for one would find the series more interesting if it had more varied maps and showed you struggling with the situations they throw up (and losing more? :D - yes I know I'm a sadist!)
 
Well if you are not too boxed in from here it looks like a not too bad start. :D

Good luck, and deity next! ;)
 
Problem with random starts (Fractal) is more often than not you end up not isolated... not sure what the odds are but I'm guessing -> 1/10 for (semi-)isolation.

I don't want to play Continents or Pangea as they are *usually* easier in my opinion, provided you get enough land to start.

As for Deity... maybe in the future but I don't have enough experience on the level right now... it'd take too long and that's the nice part about Immortal, I can be lazy and still win comfortably.

I think(90%) I might scrap this start and the others already generated and simply generate new ones without checking for isolation. If this is the case, not sure I'll play a round today as I have to fix things up for a new start.
 
Dirk1302 said:
^Don't think so although it's not that bad. It's more work on micro but it's possible to convert all the food to hammers with whipping although there's some planning involved in how to do it. whipping settlers for 3 pop earns 90 H immediately and you can grow to 6 again and repeat without incurring too much unhappiness especially when queing a worker next. You just won't match that amount of hammers while working mined pigs. So basically you lose out on 1H for every mined pig vs pastured pig.

Also without whipping, if you queue settlers/workers you just build them faster with pastured pigs than with mined pigs. It's just as in real life, pigs don't belong in mines.
Click to expand...

More and more as I use the AI assignments of 10/6/4 f/h/c below the cap, I'm finding these questions answered for me. Even if we set f=h at the happy cap, the pasture still beats out the mine (5F 1H vs 2F 3H). I'm still working on this theory though. How to count growing too far into unhappiness on whips (probably just -2f for turns with :mad: per pop) and how to factor commerce at the :) cap are still snags...possibly I'll have to change commerce valuation in cities that are specifically specialized as such when they hit their caps.

I do find it interesting that the AI is very bad at applying the rule the designers gave it.

Anyway whipping settlers or just building them off the pigs seems best easily. It's not THAT much micro if I'm willing to do it :p.
 
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