Sitting Bull Prince Game

Hi all,

I have been posting a couple of games and inviting feedback, so here is another one: I have changed the difficulty to Prince and am using Sitting Bull as the leader.

Sitting Bull is Protective and Philosophical. The Protective trait should have good synergy with the Totem Pole and Barracks - Archers will come out of the gate with 6 experience points and can be CG3 or Drill3 or possibly some specialized combination. This combined with Dog Soldiers should be well suited for a defensive game and the Barbarians will have a real tough time. The Philosophical trait will help with Great People.

Here is the initial save and a screen shot of the starting location. The next post will show what I have been doing for a bunch of turns.

The starting location looked pretty good so I settled in place and moved the warrior over to the hills to start exploring - eventually the direction is south because I saw jungle to the north when I settled. I set research to Mining / Bronze Working because I did not see anything pressing to research and BW gets me the Dog Soldiers.

Here I have played 116 turns and the year is 25AD.

Research path was as follows:

Mining (Turn 5 popped from hut) Bronze Working (19) Hunting (25) Animal Husbandry (33) The Wheel (39) Pottery (45) Mysticism (48) Polytheism (55) Monotheism (63) Priesthood (67) Archery (69) Writing (75) Sailing (80) Monarchy (94) and Mathematics. (107) Calendar is upcoming for turn 117.

Masonry popped from a hut somewhere in there.

It looks like I prioritized Pottery and Granaries over Monotheism and Judaism, but somehow won the race anyway. My initial thinking was that with Granaries I can start whipping settlers much faster and I really like to set this up as soon as possible. However Monotheism is in the path towards Monarchy, which I need for Military Police and the wine resources up the river. It was dumb luck that I managed to found Judaism in this game. (There has been a lot of that affecting this game, looks like.)

I might have also done well to research Alphabet and find a tech trading partner - It looks like it will be Washington. I will do that right after I finish Calendar and then research Currency and Code of Laws - and probably go up the artsy chain.

I expanded to the south where I found lots of food and gold and silver - This helped fuel more expansion. When the economy started slowing down, I started building temples and libraries and worked on building some Great People. So far I got a Great Scientist which founded an Academy in Cahokia and a Great Prophet which founded the Shrine in Poverty Point.

I have Marble coming up, so the Parthenon might be a good wonder to build and maybe the Great Library.

Here is a screen shot and save at 25AD.

The Good:
1. City placement is generally good, you're building on rivers and you're building on coast and getting food resources worked.
2. You have a good understanding on how to leverage the Philosophical trait and produce great people.

The Bad:
1. You have 4 workers and 8 cities, this is a very bad ratio even with the tundra/water tiles! Stop everything you are doing and build/whip at least 6 more workers.
2. Even the workers you do have are doing the wrong things. Two of your workers are building a road to deer when you have zero health problems. That's half your worker population doing absolutely nothing!

Strategy:
The next research spot should be iron working, find out where it is and get it. You're going to want to make a military move against the Hindu Muslims (they are out-teching you) and Crossbowmen might be a good choice for Native America.

I will take a look at the save and post some suggestions. Sorry for the long post but I had fun breaking down the game and working out strategy permutations. I should try it in one of my own games some day

Hopefully having it split into these tags helps with breaking it down and cutting through the chaff

(note some people may disagree with my priorities/choices, I will try to lay out why I suggest something different)

Comments on the game played up to 25AD:

Tech path:
To summarise the above spoiler:

Mining -> BW -> AH -> Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing -> Mysticism (totem poles best for border pops in southern cities) -> Sailing -> Math -> Calendar - - - - -> Currency -> CoL -> IW (if you have time up to 25 AD)

City choice/placements:

Diplo/Religion/Trading/Wonders:
As mentioned above, not enough workers. Whip a couple each from Mesa Verde and Chaco Canyon. Whip a settler from Poverty Point, settle 1S of the horse NW of your capital. Reassign Scientists in Poverty Point once you are working all the farms (see gameplan). You also want the barb city and a city in the rice/rivers N of your capital if you can reach those spots first. I would perhaps whip a settler from Poverty Point to get the northern site, it can fit a lot of farms.

Micro - give the northern wine tile to Mound City as you have too much food already in Poverty Point. Also work the Silver tiles in Chaco Canyon at size 3 - you are essentially paying extra maintenance/growing for the benefit of working a 2F 2C tile - an extra 2H + 3C is more useful to you.

Tip with GP - if you research Meditation and manage to pop a Great Prophet, you can bulb Theology and use this to build the Apostolic Palace. The hammer bonus will be good as you have quite a few temples up and can then add cheap monastaries for research/hammer bonii. You can also potentially vote to get OB with Mehmed and possibly Saladin (extra TR commerce) and stop pesky votes from distracting you later on.

Plan from 25 AD onwards:

Tech Calendar -> Meditation. Slow your research so that Meditation finishes the same turn you pop the great person.

If you pop a Prophet:
If you pop a Scientist:

A popular alternative path would be teching Aesthetics -> Literature and adding the GL+NE and bulbing towards Liberalism. Because you didnt beeline for Aesthetics + Lit early (ie skipping stuff like Sailing + Calendar + Math + Monarchy), I dont really think it makes a difference one way or the other.

Should be fun to watch how the next 100 or so turns pan out. So many options

Note if any of the suggestions above seem boring, dont choose them. Fun is #1 priority!

Just looked at your screenshots, and it appears you expanded the wrong way. It is generally a good idea to expand towards your neighbours to seal off some good land. Admittedly, this map has a fair bit of desert, but I still would have grabbed those happy resources. Can't quite work out why you haven't gone North at all?? The area with horses around the barb city is far better than the tundra/ice cities you've plonked down. Switch to IW, kill barbs, and settle that good land.

Grab those bananas above Cahokia. That can be a good cottage city, you're gonna need the commerce eventually. Better to get those cottages up and running now so they're towns before too long. I'm not quite sure what's further north, but you *really* need to block the Ottomans. That dye should be yours, and it looks like you can maybe build a city to win those bananas from the Ottomans, in addition to the silk. You have room for at least 3 or 4 more cities, maybe of which will be cottageable with the added benefit of being riverside. Get to it. I would continue to build your economy, and then when you start getting a tech lead (which you will if you build cottage cities up north, like I said), either go for an easy domination or space victory. You MAY lack the hammers to do a space victory. I think you'll have to go to war with the Ottomans, but they have a tendency to spam units and it may be hard.

Just to let you know, I haven't loaded the save so I can't speak for the tech situation with much certainty.

Okay I played 25 more turns so it is turn 141 or 620AD.

I finished teching Calendar, then went Iron Working, Currency, and Code of Laws. I was able to trade with Washington to get Meditation, Alphabet, and Construction from trades. It looks like I am now on a tech parity with Arabia and America has Horseback Riding on me.

My plan for tech is to finish Metal Casting, then go down the artsy chain. Maybe I can get the Great Library built before one of those guys on the other island. The economy needs rebuilding and the tech rate looks

I am going to take a guess that I have Huyana Capac, Bismarck, and Mansa Musa on the other island. I am guessing HC because he techs a lot and likes to build wonders. Bismarck (or maybe Louis) might also be in that category. Mansa Musa will serve as a tech trading partner and they are coexisting peacefully and building wonders. We shall see when I get there. (Or do they find me?)

Here on Easter Bunny Island, things have not been peaceful. My missionary sent to Instanbul was not successful in spreading Judaism, but he was successful in finding Washington at Mehmed's throat with a stack of 6 horsemen and a swordsman and a catapult and no spears in the Ottoman capital. Eventually, I will have to join the war on the winning side to carve up Turkey.

A screen shot shows the moment I decided to attack - the idea of a triple worker steal was too much to resist. After that, I had the workers build roads for faster access to the Ottoman Empire. The fighting was downright messy, but eventually superior numbers and taking away the metal sources took their toll and the job got done.

So the good news is the Ottomans are gone and their empire has been divided. The bad news is the Americans got the two good cities and I got the three marginal cities. I decided to keep them rather than raze them because they limit the space American and Arabia can claim. Arabia has the top of the head and the ears of the Chocolate Easter Bunny and America has the chin, nose, and throat.

I still have two more decent city sites to claim. Going to war and grabbing a piece of Turkey carried a lot of priority. Washington is going to be powerful enough with control of Instanbul - I think he would be nearly unstoppable with the entire empire.

I am planning to rebuild the economy then gear up for a campaign against Saladin. I believe he has five cities. Since I do not have open borders, I will send some spies in to scout his territory so I have some idea of what I am stepping into.

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Thanks for the feedback, I will try to address comments.

I ended up founding a city to the northeast to claim more bananas and the silk. The real benefit of such a forward city next to the Ottomans is it opened the door as shown in one of the screen shots.

Regarding expanding north versus expanding south - There is a jungle separating north and south so I felt there was plenty of time to grab those sites. At the time I was thinking to put cities where I had lots of food with very little investment. However you are probably right and I will have to consider that in the future.

Regarding Berkobob's comment on the tech path: I think you are right and next time I should just skip the religious path and go straight for Writing, Iron Working, and Metal Casting.

Hindsight says that building a couple of academies was a weak early move because my science slider is down around 10%. I might have done better to either choose a science city and settle there - or wait for a big tech and bulb it.

I am going to have to think about where my national wonder combos will go.

I hope you find this save interesting.

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UPDATE: 1060AD (Turn 166)

Arabs got Feudalism when I had only one cat and decided not to build up for war and favored the artsy route. Researched Metal Casting - Aesthetics - Literature.

I built the Mausoleum in Cahokia for no good reason - so that it does not get build by those wonder hogs on the other island, that's why. I started the Great Library when that was finished, then the National Epic. In Poverty Point I built the Parthenon. So lots of GPP coming up and maybe some of them will be used for extended Golden Ages.

Somehow I popped a Great Engineer the turn before I researched Theology, so I built the AP. Next I will spam monasteries and temples all over the place.

I am still running Slavery / Organized Religion instead of Caste System / Pacifism. The reason is that I am still using them. I was still using Organized Religion because I was involved in some wonder races for the Parthenon and more importantly the Great Library. I was going to make a shot at the AP, but the Great Engineer popped.

I did not include a screen shot or a save, but will post an update or an after-action report. I will try to get this wrapped up in the next couple of days - I am the process of moving and it may be a good while before I am up and running.

I do not expect to be able to finish this for a good while - The move is coming up quickly and it will be a while before I have a computer and can play again.

Here is the update: It is 1610AD and I had just researched rifling and already have railroad. It is probably a good time to update some units to riflemen and cannons and start cracking some heads. Saladin is a good target if I strike quickly I think. Is this something I should have thought of about 1000 years ago? Should I wait until I have Infantry?

In any case, I should have enough power to win.

Here is a summary of the early game feedback I got:

1. Build more workers in the early game. (from Nilmerf and Berkobob)

2. Focus the tech a bit more and do not be afraid to skip some and backfill them. (from Berkobob)

3. Place some of the cities closer together and share the big food resources more. (from Berkobob)

4. Work on diplomacy - My decision to go Judaism fractured the world. (from Berkobob)

5. Expansion - I should be putting cities towards my opponents to block them and deny them good land. (from Leventis and Hexem)

Here is the save. I am sorry that it will be a while before I can complete the game.

When I get back, I will finish the game. I think it is in the roll the opponents over stage. Then I will start another game at the same level but with a different leader.

Thanks for your feedback and advice!

EDIT: Very basic question - What do I need to do to swing an AP victory?

Trade banana to Washington for clams right away. The game seems to be in hand, especially for a Space Race victory.. but there's still room for improvement. Mostly with land management.

1. Still not enough workers. Think 1.5 per city. Attacko calls this the freakish 1.5 worker man with an extra leg dragging behind him. Makes it easier to remember.
2. Unimproved land. A grassland forest is just begging to be chopped like 4000 years ago, and having a grassland forest by a river is a bit of a cardinal sin.
2. Workshops. You're running a specialist strategy which is fine, but that leaves a lot of tiles unworked and a lot of useless farms. Try this: convert every plains tile into a workshop as long as it doesn't affect irrigation paths. You'll thank me when you're building the spaceship parts. Ditch the windmills for mines too.
3. Civics. Bureaucracy isn't doing a whole lot for you because your capital has nothing but farms. You don't have a lot of towns so Free Speech wouldn't do much, so consider a switch to Nationhood to save upkeep, increase happiness, and allow you to draft down some of your mega population. You also have plenty of useless units kicking around which is not a good combo with Pacifism. Switch to State Property when it comes, and start paving over farms with workshops and watermills.

I'm going to attach a save with all of the land edited to what I would have done by this point in the game with my workers. Assuming the switch to State Property, Nationhood, and perhaps Free or Organized Religion while going for Space Race. Rough approximation and I'd adjust number of farms/workshops as needed. Mesa Verde would be National Park city. Northern banana city would be Globe Theatre drafter.

Oh - It's 1.5 workers per city not 1.5 cities per worker!

I have played another 23 turns - I finished researching Physics and used three great people to start a golden age and changed my civics over to Vassalage and Theocracy - then set the slider to 0 and started on (EDIT) Assembly Line and started upgrading to rifles. Turn 241 (1655AD) I declared on Saladin and started running stacks of rifles and cannon northwards.

Currently I am at Turn 255, or 1725AD - It is pretty much a matter of how I should clean up and finish. Admittedly, my cleanup technique is pretty sloppy.

Most of the options are available.

I can build a bunch of transports and take it to Genghis Khan - he is very far behind technologically, infantry against longbows or maybe muskets. He has vassalized his island, so I am not sure if this path leads to a conquest or a domination victory.

I should also be able to spread Judaism across my island.

I will be playing a few more turns in a few hours or so.

Looks like a W.

Technique will not improve massively in one game so as long as you learned one or two things from this one you did good

Took it to the Mongols, English and Maya and got an 1818 domination win.

I am in the process of moving (I have two free days left) so it might be several months before I am posting any games. Thanks for everybody's advice.

ADDED: I cannot believe Genghis Khan was so much into building wonders this game.