System More Open

Civ 4 is a great game. In the line from Civ – Civ2 – Civ 3 -Civ4 you can see a typical development. Lets call it a increasing “player-democracy”. It started with the ability to mod it, some other games also have that in some way, and it now (Civ4) is completely open to (re)program much of it yourself on different levels. That is more than just adding detailed, beautiful or historical graphics, however great, the mods of Civ4 can change the mechanics of the game to almost new games or the rebirth of games.
Like the “rebirth” of the great Sid Meier’s Alpha Centauri (SMAC) and Alien Crossfire (SMACX) in the MOD Planetfall by Maniac.
There are many sophisticated mods and now even modmods. And the list is still growing!
See Civilization Fanatics' Forums > Civilization4 > Civ4 - Creation & Customization >Civ4 - Modpacks
In my opinion the main cause that Civ4 is still very much alive.

To continue this development in Civ5 it is obvious to make it even more open.
In this way of thinking nowadays modding can be considered as a inside way to change, it may be interesting to look at the outside as well. The idea is to make the game interact with other software outside. Software to be written by the users (also in python?) just like it is written for the mods within the limits of Civ4. Software that is out of limits to create play fields next to the game, but still interacting wit it. Just adding new possibilities.
For instance:
One of the great concepts in SMAC was the workshop in which you could create your own units with those technologies of the tech-tree that were available to you at that moment. The more you advanced in the tech-tree the better troopers or copters etc you could design. The workshop was the great toy of SMAC.
In the discussion around the Planetfall mod we see the boundaries of Civ4:

See Civilization Fanatics' Forums > Civilization4 > Civ4 - Creation & Customization >Civ4 – Modpacks > Planetfall , Page 54, Message 1065 and further

Pfeffersack said:

Like LT, I don't really understand what you mean. Are you missing certain special abilities? Then it would be best to point out which together with a suggestion how they could work within the engine of Civ4. If you miss the workshop feature itself... as I wrote in cursive, the scope of the Planetfall Mod is the Civ4 engine. It can be no 1:1 conversion and it is also not intended that way by Maniac (because then we wouldn't have many nice things from Civ4 as well). A SMAC workshop is impossible (see also the FAQ entry), biggest problem the AI not using it. So there is no gain bringing up such a general request again (BTW, the workshop was a great toy in SMAC, but OTOH had some serious balance issues...and I'm not sure if they could be resolved by just making some things costier or if they a just inherent design issues of the WS, which allows you to create "best units" all the time); also like LT pointed out, the promotion-style special ability system allows already nearly anything SMAX had. Automation routines fall in the same category...would require tons of work, if possible at all, for very limited gain (many players don't automate at all and would hate it if forced or ignore it, if it is optional) - I would prefer a better AI in regard to understanding the features of PF a lot over automation, given that ressources for development are always limited.

You can help Planetfall a lot more by bringing up specific requests (like a unit/SE choice/building/... you miss, together with an idea how to implement in PF), reporting bugs/AI issues or discussing some of the current topics in the subforum (ideas for implementing the SMAX factions for example).

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viator said:

I also miss the workshop as the great toy of SMAC.
From the explanation above (quote) I understand the Civ4 engine wo'nt permit it.
Is that really the last word?

Still I would encourage thinking about the idea of getting outside the boundary's of the playfield. It could upheavel Civ4 as a whole. (to Civ5 )
For many MOD's ( and ModMods ) it would be a great help to construct something of general software to (temporarely) get besides the engine and then return with some changed parameters.
I have no knowledge about how tightly closed (impermeable) the engine is, but surely you guys know about the input/output model... It cannot be limited to keystrokes and mousemovements only, I guess.

There must be some Leonardo amongst you to solve this !

Just trying to give it a kick, like an old motorbike ..... sometimes it works, maybe it is too hard and it is broken forever .... and we sadley have to accept that this really is the last frontier of Civ4 itself.

Thanks for all great MODs.
Best greetings and good health to you all !
Viator

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If we sadley have to accept that this really is the last frontier of Civ4 itself than I would like to add this for the list of Civ5.

For the sake of the discussion I wil open a thread called "System More Open" in the Ideas & Suggestions Forum.

Best greetings,
Viator

Some of us would far rather see effort going into the actual gameplay than into peripheral toys like unit workshops.

I wish Firaxis would give us more cIV code to mess with, more capabilities

Thanks for your reactions, very interesting !

civ_king said:

I wish Firaxis would give us more cIV code to mess with, more capabilities

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Do you think that could do the trick in Civ4 already? Saves us waiting for Civ5 in 2012....

rysmiel said:

Some of us would far rather see effort going into the actual gameplay than into peripheral toys like unit workshops.

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In the great Civ4-MOD Planetfall the goodies of Sid Meier’s Alpha Centauri (SMAC) are brought back to Civ4 BtS.
Maniac c.s. did a great job: one of the best mods for Civ4 BtS !
In my opinion (and of a some more players ...) the workshop added greatly to the gameplay. The idea of composing new/better units with weapons/tools that come with achieved sience instead of just adding a promotion.
Only the real workshop is impossible in Civ4 because of technicalities...
Impossible in Civ4, so I propose this for Civ5.
It needs more interaction possebilities with the system in Civ5.
Unless civ_king is right about Civ4....

More generally I propose to continue the line of openness (modability) in Civ5.

Best greetings,
Viator

viator said:

In the great Civ4-MOD Planetfall the goodies of Sid Meier’s Alpha Centauri (SMAC) are brought back to Civ4 BtS.
Maniac c.s. did a great job: one of the best mods for Civ4 BtS !
In my opinion (and of a some more players ...) the workshop added greatly to the gameplay. The idea of composing new/better units with weapons/tools that come with achieved sience instead of just adding a promotion.

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I'm not denying that there are people who enjoy this; I am saying I very very much don't. I think promotions are themselves a bad idea; unit upgrades plus a reasonably big tech tree should be enough.

If I wanted a toy to fiddle with rather than a game to play, I'd play something of Wil Wright's, not Civ.

Increased modability (?) is always a good thing; it keeps more people satisfied. But how hard would it be to make the changes you suggest?

And just to clarify, the changes you are proposing are that the game be much more elastic in its moddable components, to create virtual whole new games, rather than just whole new mods based off the same old structure, yes? Or am I misunderstanding this?

Camikaze said:

Increased modability (?) is always a good thing; it keeps more people satisfied. But how hard would it be to make the changes you suggest?

And just to clarify, the changes you are proposing are that the game be much more elastic in its moddable components, to create virtual whole new games, rather than just whole new mods based off the same old structure, yes? Or am I misunderstanding this?

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Had to think about your question.
I think the answer is a "yes" but your vision of virtual games goes further, could be an interesting possibility or Civ6...

In the first place I want Civ to be what it is and stay that way.
I wouldn't dare touch Sid's basics

The game has evolved from Civ1 to Civ4 (I was there all the way!), but some parts of the game seem to have matured more than others.
Diplomacy has hardly changed (I think it's rather silly), enrichments ot the gameplay like the workshop were brought in ages ago by SMAC (another of Sid's inventions), the graphic possibilities are very nice but hardly state of the art nowadays.
Yes, the graphics are great, the best possible by the hard work of the modders, but technically I see hardly any growth in possibilities since Civ3. It still happens within a very narrow framework.
I follow many Mods, some are very inventive, ingenious, great artwork, I can only applaud for that, but I notice we get stuck within the narrow margins... More and more MODs seek to go to another planet, but the possibilities are said to be limited.
In the forum-discussions I read that it is impossible?
Give more room to the modders !

Maybe that can only be realized in Civ5?
Or can it be done in Civ4 like civ-king suggests:

civ_king said:

I wish Firaxis would give us more cIV code to mess with, more capabilities

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In my vision it might help if you can go to another screen and back.
In that screen you can create another (parallell) world or a sophisticatde (diplo/tech) discussion.
The results of that must be brought back to the main screen.
Technically it sounds possible to bring parameters from the main screen to the new screens (that's the "easy" part) but also to bring them back in the central game and let it have it's influence there.
That means the system must open.

Hope that answers your question,
Viator