Immortal University XLII: Victoria

Hello all and welcome to the Immortal University! This series was started a long time ago to move a group of the forum's players to the next level. It is now hosted by professors Ignorant Teacher (on sabbatical) and myself, TMIT. Are you ready for the U?

This is the 43rd beatdown on the AI, in case you're keeping track.

We will uphold the university's traditions...smacking down the hapless AI!

Our leader this time around:



Overrated UU, but it's still not bad. Your traits can pay for expansion or allow aggressive wonder pushes while still blocking. Of course one can just cottage spam with FIN. I mean, what could POSSIBLY go wrong?!

Here's the start:



Another IU, another random fractal start. It looks like a nice one, too.

Huts and Events are off. If you don't like it, just plop 4 warriors somewhere in world builder and give yourself 60 gold to simulate huts, and just delete your capitol and put 3 archers there to simulate events.

Copy and Paste of the doctrine:

To play, just extract the WB save file into your worldbuilder saves directory, then play it. Use custom scenario if you want some extra settings to tickle your fancy. This series was designed for people learning immortal, so most people here will be at that level or trying to attain it, although deity players are welcome also. Hell, if you want to play this on NOBLE, go ahead, but I'm not peeling off the AI bonuses. The intention of this and any other game thread I post is to get better. Play whatever level you need in order to improve. Just remember, there are immortal bonuses and that's not going to change unless you WB edit it.

If you are aspiring IMM+, try to remember to add archery back to the barbs in WB. Every time you don't, a deity AI will kill a kitten, although there are a lot of kittens so it's not the end of the world if you prefer easymode barbs .

I do request people to list their difficulty and speed. In terms of updates, well nobody follows that anyway. Post in the manner you feel comfortable. Typical comparison dates are 1 AD, liberalism, and victory/defeat, as well as any major events. If in doubt, go with that.

The save!

View attachment IU XLIII Victoria.zip

The initial autosave for those who want to duck having to add barbs or possibly use proper colors. It's IMM/Norm no huts/events.

View attachment AutoSave_Initial_BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave

Overrated UU,

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Were you frieken serious??

obsolete said:

Were you frieken serious??

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Yes. Against medieval, it is just a rifle. Against rifles defending in cities, you still need help (fortification + equal xp promos will give you losing odds even if you use spies). The only units this realistically helps against are muskets, grenadiers, and rifles.

A unit you have to wait until the renaissance to field that still needs a lot of help at tech parity is NOT a top unit, where many people place it. I believe I said it is still decent, but this isn't vanilla and these aren't 16 str redcoats. There are a handful or two of better UUs.

From the autosave

Start ---> Finish 1846 AD

TheMeInTeam said:

From the autosave

Start ---> Finish 1846 AD

Spoiler :

Settled in place. Went for GLH and got it. Used warriors vs the barbs though this got me one non-resource farm/road pillaged. Cathy boxed me in because I expanded slowly, so I just gunned music and cottaged up.

Got the music artist, won lib ---> nat

And then using my 1 religion + hide behind cathy (@ friendly) tactic I ran out to culture.

3 cities:

Good food in the capitol means that got national epic. I really didn't need the multipliers in the cap due to its culture head start and wonder (of course I still got free speech...). Bombed 10 artists or so between the 3 cities to even out the finish. I had fewer religions by far than the NC Lincoln game but as you can see I didn't place my culture multipliers like a moron this time so I didn't waste ~30k culture. All 3 cities hit legendary within about 3 turns.

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Whats up with all your culture victorys lately

I don't have a long history of that victory type so I'm spamming them for a bit. Being able to read and use the easiest VC given a map makes me more dynamic.

Although it's starting to become apparent that culture is pretty easy if you know diplo.

There are a handful or two of better UUs.

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I do hope what you mean by that is.... Churchhill's UU is better than Vicky's. Which is acceptable.

To 10AD Immortal/Epic

obsolete said:

I do hope what you mean by that is.... Churchhill's UU is better than Vicky's. Which is acceptable.

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Ok, yes the PRO version is markedly better as you can do things like draft pinch redcoats or stack up first strikes (which are good on any rifle) in a hurry.

Other UU's that are comparable or better than the redcoat

- Quecha (obliterates barbs w/o effort, can pull some cheesy nonsense against the AI)
- Prat (one of the few units I'm willing to use against a deity AI that comes so early, also extremely stout if something goes wrong defensively too)
- Immortal (another ridiculous anti-barb unit that doubles as an AI crusher)
- Cossack (I'd rate it about on par with redcoats as AI mounted is very common and hell it's cavalry)
- Cataphract (takes some work to emphasize it but I've seen high level games where a player guns these quickly and the results are not pretty for the AI)
- Oromo (these promote very nicely, but are quite solid on their own. I know you don't like using cannons, but deity players who do can do quite some damage with these suckers before they become drill IV rifles)
- Janissary (similar to oromos ONLY in that they serve as cannon cover. Draftable cannon cover).
- Conquistador (a bonus against their only reliable counter until rifling, and cuirassers as the fastest 12 str unit to get).
- War chariot (dubious about these on normal speed deity, but anywhere else...)

Some of these can be stronger or weaker because of their leader and UB, but on a straight UU comparison any of the above can easily be better than the redcoat, and some are consistently so.

Redcoats still get votes as a top 5 UU...

To put it in perspective gauntlets involving the fastest win using a rifle push were won by...toku. Not one of the english leaders. Toku. The value-over-base offered by redcoats is good, but it isn't GREAT (in cases involving some good % defensive bonuses combat I isn't even that far behind the gunpowder bonus!).

The only unit in that list that is even comparable to the RedCoat is the Cossack. And I have yet to see any deity player ROMP OVER THE WORLD with pratts, unless we are talking some vanilla broken anarchy exploit, etc.

Post lib, Churchhil and Stalin are the best warmongers, hands down.

To Liberalism Immortal/Epic

I dont see how redcoats could ever be better than Quecha even on immortal you can rush the enemy capital with it and sure you lose some early growth but you basicly start with 2 capitals and tons of land to expand in.

That does not work on every immortal game. And it never works on deity.

^I beg to differ on marathon it works very well.

obsolete said:

That does not work on every immortal game. And it never works on deity.

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Just tried it in a deity game for fun 3100 BC I had cyrus capital+second city and he was dead First atempt even The faster the speed the harder it is ofc.

TheMeInTeam said:

Huts and Events are off. If you don't like it, just plop 4 warriors somewhere in world builder and give yourself 60 gold to simulate huts, and just delete your capitol and put 3 archers there to simulate events.

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I laughed.

I agree, huts and events off is the best way to play.

Any UU after classical era is overrated. Redcoat is nothing better than a rifleman in offense.

Yes. Against medieval, it is just a rifle. Against rifles defending in cities, you still need help (fortification + equal xp promos will give you losing odds even if you use spies). The only units this realistically helps against are muskets, grenadiers, and rifles.

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Try against infantry. Redcoats vs infantry is viable with a promo advantage. Redcoats + arty (fighters) is much easier to roll than rifles + arty vs infantry.

Pinch Redcoats vs defending rifles is winning odds with spies and airships as I recall; generic rifles not so much.

Frankly though, redcoats allow you to either throw away draftees or to require fewer suicide trebs.

Personally, I'm not sold on the immortal as a top ranked unit for high level play; it is too random if you can settle and link up the horses before the AI gets metal online; for barb busting I'll take the quecha every time. Janis seem to also be rather situational; if I hit cannons before the AI gets curis I rarely have any trouble, even if I have to mix in large amounts of xbows and pike, cannons own the field.

First atempt even The faster the speed the harder it is ofc.

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Well no sh1t there Sherlock. And let me guess, you were not playing deity fair & square were you?

You can see anything done with HoF settings, and it all falls apart as soon as the rookies cant tweak the game settings in their favour.

By the way, there was an Inca deity map ABigCivFan posted not too long ago. I'd like to see you demonstrate to them how this is done, since I have my doubts. I'm sure TMIT would particularly like to see this, since he got raped and butchered IIRC by Hatty right from the start.

But somehow, I just don't think you are going to teach the top players any new tricks. In fact, I would even bet money on it.

War Chariots are very viable on deity against peaceful AIs if you pop horses in the capital bfc.