Dr kossin #19

kossin · Jan 22, 2010

Welcome to Dr kossin #19.

Dr is an acronym for Daily Round. Yes, I mean to get in an update every day to the games I will be playing. Of course there might be some days where I can only play a little or not at all, but I will make up for it those other days when I do have extra time on my hands.

Previously, I had been using maps that had been verified for isolation or semi-isolation. I have terminated that practice as, while a common sort of map, it doesn't entirely reflect the reality of gameplay and was a big hint that there were at least 2 civilizations nearby even if you started on an island by yourself.

Since I have become more-or-less comfortable on Immortal, the goal of the series is now for me to move even beyond Immortality, into Deity grounds. Hopefully, readers will also be able to pick up a few things here and there to alleviate their own playing.

You, the reader, can help me achieve this goal by pointing out where I got astray, give suggestions on how to proceed, use complex abstract mathematical analysis to argue, curse at me or anything that you may like. Please note that you must respect the Terms of Service of CFC in any case

You may shadow this game and post it here if you please, but I kindly request that you put it in spoiler tags and that anyone reading the report abstain from using information found there to help me out.

Should you want more clarification about something I've done, just ask for it and I will try to answer as best as I can.

Enough talk, on to the game.

Dr kossin #19

Round 1 Settling spree!
Round 2a Is this really Immortal?
Round 2b Towards Liberalism
Round 3 *Cavalry

Game settings
Immortal
Normal Speed
Continents
No Events
No Huts
BTS 3.19 with BUG 4.2 in CustomAssets and BULL 1.0
Everything else is normal.

The leader, this time, is:

Please refer to the Byzantine Civ IV wiki for more information on this leader/nation.

The start:

An interesting start. I'm almost certain moving can provide a much better capital here.
Some options:
-1SE on the plains hill for accelerated production. Possibly a resource.
-NE looks like it could grab a lot of riverside tiles and maybe even a third food resource (I think I see a flood plain to the north). It could be a strategic resource though thus wasted hammers.
-2N provides the accelerated production of SE but it has only 1 hill for production that we know of

BigTime · Jan 22, 2010

I like 1 NE. That looks like a lot of riverside and perhaps a floodplain, which would make a nice bureau capital. I'd scout warrior 1SE to see if you are losing any seafood. If there is seafood 2SE of warrior settle 1SE. I don't like 2N much, because you lose river access and lose hills.

TheMeInTeam · Jan 22, 2010

I don't know...resources are pretty likely both 1 NE and SE (I would settle SE if I knew there wasn't a resource there). In place won't hurt as we can settler rush if these is a good spot nearby with IMP.

kossin · Jan 22, 2010

BigTime said:
I like 1 NE. That looks like a lot of riverside and perhaps a floodplain, which would make a nice bureau capital. I'd scout warrior 1SE to see if you are losing any seafood. If there is seafood 2SE of warrior settle 1SE. I don't like 2N much, because you lose river access and lose hills.

The levee comes so late in the game, most time it doesn't add that much. River access however is good for early city connection.

TheMeInTeam said:
I don't know...resources are pretty likely both 1 NE and SE (I would settle SE if I knew there wasn't a resource there). In place won't hurt as we can settler rush if these is a good spot nearby with IMP.

Just going by the 3-resource rule here... 3-2=1 hidden is my guess.

In place gets a lot of crappy coastal tiles and by the looks of the river system just north it could really be a nice Bureau capital for either commerce/production.

BigTime · Jan 22, 2010

1SE also runs the risk of getting crappy tundra tiles in the BFC, which sucks.

raxid · Jan 22, 2010

kossin said:
The levee comes so late in the game, most time it doesn't add that much. River access however is good for early city connection.

Just going by the 3-resource rule here... 3-2=1 hidden is my guess.

In place gets a lot of crappy coastal tiles and by the looks of the river system just north it could really be a nice Bureau capital for either commerce/production.

in place only gets 4 coastal tiles while SE gets 6 and is at least a 50-50 chance of setting on top of a strat resource!

frankly i'd settle in place, that river will still be there for your first settler and moving capitals isn't the worst thing.

Berkobob · Jan 22, 2010

I like 1NE just to purge those crappy coastal tiles from your capitals BFC.

Kadazzle · Jan 23, 2010

@ Whoevers at/around/passed 2000BC:

Spoiler :

lymond · Jan 23, 2010

Kadazzle said:
@ Whoevers at/around/passed 2000BC:

Spoiler :

Going Worker -> Warrior -> Warrior -> Settler -> Stonehenge on this map works like a charm. Expanding with SH as an IMP leader is brilliant. It's what I did, and I'm not in a very comfortable lead which I'm sure I'm going to win. The tech path went Hunting -> Animal Husbandry -> Mining -> Agriculture -> Pottery -> Bronze Working -> Writing -> Polytheism -> Aesthetics.

Easy map if you ask me. Nice room, decent happy resources and nice commerce if you grab far up the floodplain river as a first city other than your capital.

Spoiler :

obsolete · Jan 23, 2010

Just going by the 3-resource rule here... 3-2=1 hidden is my guess.

Actually, everyone is using the 4-resource rule these days...

BTW, I'm in the post-lib era right now. Unfortunately in the middle of my game stupid vista decides to (yet again), do a FORCED reboot (for security reasons), without even asking me confirmation! And hence reboots in the middle of my movements!

I shall return to it shortly. Though once again I seem to have forgot to build any cottages. Whoopsies. I guess that means sitting bull is going to romp over me now!!!

lymond · Jan 23, 2010

@obselete

I've had that same problem before with the reboots - got me in an xOTM game a while back. To prevent this from happening again, go to Security Center and you can change the settings under Automatic Updating to "Download Updates but let me choose whether to Install them".

Soirana · Jan 23, 2010

I somehow miss your fog marks

The key IMHO is that are expected tiles 3N... With my limited fog reading abilities 2n [or 2N1E] looks rather good.

obsolete · Jan 23, 2010

Hmm, almost 7 am here, I'm going to have to go sleep for a bit. I hit a terrible set-back due to a broken game-mechanic with the vassals again, but that's a long story. Needless to say I'm still trying to climb out of it, but it will probably take another 30-min to an hour to get back where I should have been 30 turns ago.

Torgny · Jan 23, 2010

As someone else suggested before, I would move the Settler NE unless there is some seafood found by the warrior. It is always nice to have the capital by the sea - but there is no seafood.

MyOtherName · Jan 23, 2010

kossin said:
Just going by the 3-resource rule here... 3-2=1 hidden is my guess.

I would expect the "all forest" rule to be more apropos here -- the start triggered the "put forests everywhere" bug, so anything without a forest must be an unforestable resource.

kossin · Jan 23, 2010

BigTime said:
1SE also runs the risk of getting crappy tundra tiles in the BFC, which sucks.

True enough, I forgot to consider that.

raxid said:
in place only gets 4 coastal tiles while SE gets 6 and is at least a 50-50 chance of setting on top of a strat resource!

frankly i'd settle in place, that river will still be there for your first settler and moving capitals isn't the worst thing.

In the case that there is seafood to the east and that we move there, it wouldn't be a complete loss to spawn bronze/iron under the city tile... it'd be worth 3 hammers/turn and couldn't be pillaged. Now moving NE doesn't grant a city tile bonus should a start resource pop but it'd be a gamble on getting a very powerful capital. If there are 9-11 riverside tiles in the BFC NE, is it worth losing 1 horse tile for a giant Bureaucracy bonus?

Berkobob said:
I like 1NE just to purge those crappy coastal tiles from your capitals BFC.

That is my feeling as well. Spending 60 hammers on a lighthouse to gain 4 food/turn on those useless coastal tiles is a waste imho.

obsolete said:
Actually, everyone is using the 4-resource rule these days...

BTW, I'm in the post-lib era right now. Unfortunately in the middle of my game stupid vista decides to (yet again), do a FORCED reboot (for security reasons), without even asking me confirmation! And hence reboots in the middle of my movements!

I shall return to it shortly. Though once again I seem to have forgot to build any cottages. Whoopsies. I guess that means sitting bull is going to romp over me now!!!

Hehe, where'd that 4-resource rule come from

I hope SB isn't in the game for spoiler's sake...

Soirana said:
I somehow miss your fog marks The key IMHO is that are expected tiles 3N... With my limited fog reading abilities 2n [or 2N1E] looks rather good.

I might start using the fog markers again. It's hard to tell without opening the save and by just looking at the screenshot.

2N does look good. It could provide an extra flood plain, assuming there is more than one but might also snag and hit some desert (not that it'll matter anytime soon). I only can tell of 1 hill for production by moving there however.

2N1E could gain 2 flood plains but it loses the deer. Now, that's certainly not a tragedy (unless a forest grows on it, then it becomes decent) but there would be only a few city spots able to use it and those could be tundra-ridden.

Torgny said:
As someone else suggested before, I would move the Settler NE unless there is some seafood found by the warrior. It is always nice to have the capital by the sea - but there is no seafood.

I will move the capital SE if there's a fish. Crabs or Clams are unjustified I think as there is only 1 tile that could have a seafood in the BFC there.

MyOtherName said:
I would expect the "all forest" rule to be more apropos here -- the start triggered the "put forests everywhere" bug, so anything without a forest must be an unforestable resource.

Yea... I need to go dig some information on the starting BFC algorithm. Soirana showed me a BFC where copper spawned riverside when I had read once that it wasn't possible. Need to get my facts updated.

EDIT: Here it is.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=252429

kossin · Jan 23, 2010

I moved the warrior SE as suggested.

That eliminates settling SE from the equation in my book.

Looking at the start algorithm, since seafood wasn't added, we can guess the SE or NE is a strategic resource. Copper/Iron/Horses notably.
Is NE worth risking settling on top of 2 or 3 lost hammers/turn?

Then again, 2N loses the riverside plains hill which could be a 6 hammers tile with iron/bronze. It also isn't easily claimable with another city as food looks scarce in that area.

UWHabs · Jan 23, 2010

In place for a production cap or NE for a better overall one sound fine.

Soirana · Jan 23, 2010

since we done with fog reading could you explain what do you not like in place. I like moving settlers but here i would have plopped in place.

TheMeInTeam · Jan 23, 2010

Start ----> Finish (1938 AD)

Spoiler :

Dr kossin #19

Deity

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Warlord

Warlord

Emperor

Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!)

Deity

Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!)

Emperor

Deity

Warlord

Emperor

Deity

Deity

Deity

Emperor

If A implies B...

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