Module: Arcane Academies

Jojomo · Jan 28, 2010

Version (0.9) released

Files in attachment

Having recently started a game as the Amurites (first since my first ever game of FfH2, which ended with a tag team of Sphener and Acheron storming across the globe), I’ve noticed that one of the best ways to improve their magical “portfolio” is to spam as many religions as possible and build their shrines to get the extra mana they provide. Since the Great Sages in the game don’t do very much, I hit on the idea of a new family of buildings; Academies of magic.

Great Sages can found an academy dedicated to one of the spheres of magic in a city, which are national wonders that provide bonuses to the city they are built in (or the entire civ in some cases) as well as allowing arcane units in the city to train at the academy (see below). The academy of each sphere requires access to the corresponding mana type and knowledge of the corresponding arcane technology before it can be built. The 21 academies and their effects:

Academy of Blood (Body): Units in this city gain the Strong promotion, healing rate increased 30%.
Academy of Invention (Enchantment): +1

in all cities, +25% :gold:

in this city.
Academy of Motion (Force): +50% :hammers:

in this city.
Academy of Vitality (Life): No :yuck:

in this city.
Academy of The Wilds (Nature): +25% :food:

in this city.

Academy of Artifice (Creation): -20% hurry production cost.
Academy of Justice (Law): -50% war :mad:

in all cities.
Academy of Thought (Mind): +50% :science:

in this city.
Academy of The Soul (Spirit): +50% :gp:

in this city.
Academy of Light (Sun): +25% :culture:

in all cities.

Academy of Winds (Air): +2 :traderoute:

in all coastal cities.
Academy of Stone (Earth): Free Wall of Stone in every city.
Academy of Flame (Fire): Melee units in the city can buy the Immolation promotion for 25 gold (+2 Fire :strength:

, -1 Attack :strength:

, -3 Defense :strength:

)
Academy of Frost (Ice): Negates civic anger for your team.
Academy of Waves (Water): +1 :hammers:

for water tiles in all cities.

Academy of Disorder (Chaos): Enemies suffer +50% war :mad:

.
Academy of Bones (Death): 3 free citizens in all cities.
Academy of Doors (Dimension): Units in this city can teleport up to 10 squares away.
Academy of Attrition (Entropy): Arcane units in this city gain the Unholy Taint promotion.
Academy of Darkness (Shadow): Recon units in this city gain the Umbral Cloak promotion (Stealth, can investigate enemy cities, expires after 20 turns).

Academy of High Art (Metamagic): Enemies magic resistance reduced by 10%.

In addition to the advantages above, each academy offers training to arcane units in that city in their school of magic, for a price of course. This grants a promotion which keeps the caster held in the city for a certain number of turns and degrades to its related magic promotion.

Level 1: Training in ... magic, 50 :gold:

, 10 turns
Level 2: Studying ... magic, 100 :gold:

, 12 turns
Level 3: Mastering ... magic, 500 :gold:

, 15 turns

Some of these effects I'm not fixed on (in particular I'm not so hot on the effects of the Fire, Ice, Water, Death, Dimension, Shadow or Metamagic schools) so if there are any ideas, feel free to suggest.

Also, I'm very aware some of these effects may be too strong (I've aimed for half the effect of a National Wonder, since the training offered should be as useful as the passive bonus). The worst offender here might be the Nature academy, but I've not had much experience balancing, so anyone with a grasp of how much leverage 25% extra :food:

could give can feel free to berate me over my folly.

This balancing thing goes for the length/cost of training too, I think the timescales are reasonable but I'm leaning towards doubling the costs for each level (after playing a game as the Khazad where I found grossing over 1000 :gold:

per turn isn't all that hard.

A final note, but if anyone with more modding experience than I (that means any) can spot any effects I've listed that require serious work beyond a few lines of python, let me know. I can edit XML till the cows come home, but anything beyond that might need a small rethink.

Anyway, on that note I'll open the floor to comments, questions, suggestions and good old-fashioned accusations of insanity.

Changelog:

Spoiler :

Future Work:

Finish adding pedia descriptions for the academies.
Add different effects for the Fire, Ice, Entropy and Metamagic academies (also possibly the Air and Shadow academies).

MrUnderhill · Jan 28, 2010

Instead of buying your way into a spell sphere, how about you have each Academy provide an additional mana of their school, like the Eternal Flame wonder from FFH1?

Jojomo · Jan 28, 2010

MrUnderhill said:
Instead of buying your way into a spell sphere, how about you have each Academy provide an additional mana of their school, like the Eternal Flame wonder from FFH1?

Thanks for the input! I toyed with the idea of extra mana from the academies, but there are a few reasons I decided not to implement it that way:

1) I suspect it would make the Amurites overpowered. Given that their Apprentice unit can upgrade to almost any unit line and their Cave of The Ancestors gives 1xp per mana to any arcane units built, any Amurite civ with a steady supply of gold (as I've said before, it ain't that hard) could be churning out units at level 4 easily, I suspect I could get it to level 6 if I abused the system a bit.

2) I think free mana is too much like getting something for nothing. With the system I've suggested, you have to invest gold (which I don't normally use that much, not sure about everyone else) and more importantly time to gain these promotions.

3) I wanted to differentiate these Academies from the Religious Shrines. Since free mana is one of their defining features, I decided to try and avoid it.

4) I'll freely admit I'm a sad optimiser. I've got several systems (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) for using a Dispel Magic and a group of mages to acquire large sets of free promotions for my arcane units. Doing it my way, I don't have to bother with that, and it won't encourage that style of play.

5) Mostly a flavour point, but I wanted to give the impression that these buildings are places of learning, where adepts etc. go to broaden their horizons.

Hope that all makes sense.

odalrick · Jan 28, 2010

Jojomo said:
Currently Work in Progress
Great Sages can found an academy dedicated to one of the spheres of magic in a city, which are national wonders that provide bonuses to the city they are built in (or the entire civ in some cases) as well as allowing arcane units in the city to train at the academy (see below). The academy of each sphere requires access to the corresponding mana type and knowledge of the corresponding arcane technology before it can be built. The 21 academies and their effects:

I am a bit unclear about exactly what the requirements for the Academies are supposed to be. A Great Sage and appropriate mana. Anything else; techs, traits, civs?

It might be possible to make the Academies a unique building replacement for the normal Academy and thus prevent more than one in each city.

Jojomo said:
Academy of Blood (Body): Units in this city gain the Strong promotion, healing rate increased 30%.

This would probably be overpowered in the Warrior era, so it'd need a tech prereq.

There are two xml tags that have this similar effect, one that only applies to built units, the other that applies the promotion to all units in the city. I don't think either can apply Strong to units. Simple to work around, but you should be aware and it isn't clear how you mean it.

Jojomo said:
Academy of Invention (Enchantment): +1 in all cities, +25% in this city.

I think this is the power level and utility you should be aiming for.

Jojomo said:
Academy of Vitality (Life): +1 in all cities.

I think no :yuck:

from population, would be better.

Jojomo said:
Academy of Light (Sun): +25% in all cities.

Underwhelming. Can't think of anything better though, maybe if it gave +2 :culture:

too.

Jojomo said:
Academy of Winds (Air): Naval Units in coastal cities gain the Fair Winds promotion.

Fair Winds expires and isn't that hard to get anyway. Give it the ability to airlift a few units per turn instead, like the Hippogriff Weir.

Jojomo said:
Academy of Stone (Earth): Free Wall of Stone in every city.

Stoneskin applied to units in the city?

Jojomo said:
Academy of Flame (Fire): Allows one unit each turn in the city to use pillar of fire.

Don't know if it's possible to give a spell to only one unit per turn. If it it, maybe make it a long range super fireball spell instead. Or just let the city build primed super fireballs, that that can be turned into long range, fireballs. Cruise missiles basically.

Jojomo said:
Academy of Waves (Water): +1 for water tiles in all cities.

Make it +1 :hammers:

instead.

Jojomo said:
Academy of Disorder (Chaos): Enemies suffer +50% war .

I'd never build it, but that's because the feedback on the effect is non-existent. That is, I'd have no idea if it benefits me or not.

Maybe someone else pays more attention to enemy war :mad:

and can say if it's worthwhile.

Jojomo said:
Academy of Attrition (Entropy): Enemies in territory heal 10% slower.

Make it at least -25% otherwise it's not worth a great person.

Jojomo said:
Academy of Darkness (Shadow): Same effect as a Hall of Mirrors.

Hall of Mirrors is purely python.

Maybe a short term personal invisibility spell for units in the city. 10 turns or so.

Jojomo said:
Academy of High Art (Metamagic): Enemies magic resistance reduced by 10%.

Add some xp income for adept class units too. .1xp per turn maybe.

Jojomo said:
Level 1: Training in ... magic, 50, 10 turns
Level 2: Studying ... magic, 100, 12 turns
Level 3: Mastering ... magic, 500, 15 turns

Sound ok, provided there are no shortcuts. No skipping promotion levels, Channelling requirements or training multiple promotions at the same time.

Jojomo · Jan 28, 2010

odalrick said:
I am a bit unclear about exactly what the requirements for the Academies are supposed to be. A Great Sage and appropriate mana. Anything else; techs, traits, civs?

Each academy requires the technology you need to get access to the mana you need to build it. So you need Alteration to build the Academy of Blood, Elementalism to build the Academy of Flame, Sorcery to build the Academy of High Art and so forth.

odalrick said:
It might be possible to make the Academies a unique building replacement for the normal Academy and thus prevent more than one in each city.

I didn't intend to replace the regular academies, and I'm not too fussed about having multiple academies in one city, since there's no limit on national wonders per city

odalrick said:
This would probably be overpowered in the Warrior era, so it'd need a tech prereq.

It requires Alteration, so I don't expect this to be overpowered, since bronze weapons are usually around by then.

odalrick said:
There are two xml tags that have this similar effect, one that only applies to built units, the other that applies the promotion to all units in the city. I don't think either can apply Strong to units. Simple to work around, but you should be aware and it isn't clear how you mean it.

I'm planning on having it the same process as the Dragon's Hoard and enchanted weapons (any units passing through the city gain strong).

odalrick said:
I think this is the power level and utility you should be aiming for.

Cheers, Enchantment was one of the easy ones to call.

odalrick said:
I think no from population, would be better.

I've considered that possibility, I'll wait and see if a consensus develops.

odalrick said:
Underwhelming. Can't think of anything better though, maybe if it gave +2 too.

That's not a bad idea, this is another that I didn't have any good ideas for.

odalrick said:
Fair Winds expires and isn't that hard to get anyway. Give it the ability to airlift a few units per turn instead, like the Hippogriff Weir.

That's true, the airlifting idea is pretty good, but kinda overlaps with the idea I had for Dimension.

odalrick said:
Stoneskin applied to units in the city?

Stoneskin is pretty damn powerful, though I suppose it only lasts for one battle, so this might be OK...

odalrick said:
Don't know if it's possible to give a spell to only one unit per turn. If it it, maybe make it a long range super fireball spell instead. Or just let the city build primed super fireballs, that that can be turned into long range, fireballs. Cruise missiles basically.

Hmmm, that's not a bad idea, need to think about it some more.

odalrick said:
Make it +1 instead.

I worry that this would be crazy powerful for the Lanun.

odalrick said:
I'd never build it, but that's because the feedback on the effect is non-existent. That is, I'd have no idea if it benefits me or not.

Maybe someone else pays more attention to enemy war and can say if it's worthwhile.

For this, I just took the value for the Statue of Zeus from BtS and halved it, didn't have any better ideas.

odalrick said:
Make it at least -25% otherwise it's not worth a great person.

I'm actually not sure how to even implement this, is there a switch for enemy heal rates?

odalrick said:
Hall of Mirrors is purely python.

Maybe a short term personal invisibility spell for units in the city. 10 turns or so.

This was another I wasn't sure about, temporary invisibility might be better.

odalrick said:
Add some xp income for adept class units too. .1xp per turn maybe.

I think that's probably a good idea, don't much like the resistance modifier anyway, there's already an awful lot of those.

odalrick said:
Sound ok, provided there are no shortcuts. No skipping promotion levels, Channelling requirements or training multiple promotions at the same time.

Yeah, each training requires the Channelling promotion you'd normally need, and I'll set each of the training promotions to exclude the possibility of gaining the others.

odalrick · Jan 28, 2010

Jojomo said:
I'm planning on having it the same process as the Dragon's Hoard and enchanted weapons (any units passing through the city gain strong).

Applied to units in city then. That only works if the unit is an allowed unit combat, and Strong doesn't have any. So either modify Strong which could have other effects or a dummy promotion that applies Strong.

Jojomo said:
Stoneskin is pretty damn powerful, though I suppose it only lasts for one battle, so this might be OK...

I've seen lots of comments that Stoneskin is powerful, but I don't see it myself. Three first strikes is good, but easily countered and +2 defence only works on the defence and is easily shaved off with a sacrificial summon or warrior.

Besides, you have to move to the city to get it. Compare to Blessed, which gives that all important offensive +1 strength and can be replenished by any Confessor and is also available via Altar.

Jojomo said:
I worry that this would be crazy powerful for the Lanun.

The problem is that anything that makes the sea slightly worthwhile for other civs runs the risk of shooting the Lanun into the stratosphere.

I don't think 1 :hammers:

for sea squares will, though. 3 :food:

1

2

is good, but not out of line with land tiles. At worst they could get a unique building for the water academy.

Valkrionn · Jan 28, 2010

Or make a clone of Strong which is applied via the building.

odalrick · Jan 28, 2010

Valkrionn said:
Or make a clone of Strong which is applied via the building.

That would be cumulative with Strong.

Valkrionn · Jan 28, 2010

odalrick said:
That would be cumulative with Strong.

Why? PromotionExcludes, PromotionOverwrites. Extremely easy to make two promotions mutually exclusive.

odalrick · Jan 28, 2010

Valkrionn said:
Why? PromotionExcludes, PromotionOverwrites. Extremely easy to make two promotions mutually exclusive.

So the promotion would have a tooltip that says it overwrites and excludes itself?

Another reason to actually use Strong is that any other effect that requires Strong, requires...Strong.

I'll grant you that a cloneish promotion would work, but I think it's best to use the actual Strong promotion, unless it should be cumulative with Strong.

nikosison · Jan 28, 2010

Jojomo said:
Academy of Vitality (Life): +1 in all cities.

Too weak, seconding adding no :yuck:

for city.

Jojomo said:
Academy of The Wilds (Nature): +25% in this city.

Seem too powerful too me. +15% might be better

Jojomo said:
Academy of Light (Sun): +25% in all cities.

A revelation effect maybe? Maybe allow one unit to cast revelation ala Shrine of Sirona?

Jojomo said:
Academy of Winds (Air): Naval Units in coastal cities gain the Fair Winds promotion.

Make it a permanent version then its ok.

Jojomo said:
Academy of Darkness (Shadow): Same effect as a Hall of Mirrors.

Maybe give units in the city the stealh promo?

I like the idea. I've had similar ideas before but I didn't really bother to flesh themout. Anyway good job :goodjob:

Imuratep · Jan 28, 2010

How about making them into World wonders (instead of national wonders) that allow arcane units to purchase the spell sphere with money if it stands on this tile (Even if it is from a different civ)? That's what I first thought of when I read the title of your thread. Would give them the feel of an magic academy instead of granting an effect that could be a BtS worldwonder as well.

Edit: Nevermind. Overlooked you already had this idea. Though the time and the money you need to get them is WAY too high. Reduce it to 50 gold and 3 turns and I will use it. Don't use the extremes for balancing (as your Khazad, Amurites example). FFH is about being broken sometimes. Amurites should have a strong late game thus if they can become very powerful it's not that bad. And Khazad anyway should only be able to gain level I spells (and those are not that strong). And as readercolin already said great sages are worth a lot in nearly every phase of the game.

Kraydak · Jan 28, 2010

Put me down for making the buildings mana-providers, less in absolute terms than the Shrines, but much more flexible. Sure, the Amurites could churn out high xp units, but then, so can a lot of people, and high xp *good* units would actually be very, very expensive if getting churned. I mean, if you have burned 5 GSs on these buildings, you aren't anywhere near the early game, and those "high xp" units will be needing upgrading to top tier units.

Mainly though, I want the mana to satisfy my completionist urges, rather than a whole new slew of building effects that would just make it worse!

readercolin · Jan 28, 2010

Let me get this straight - you want these buildings to (in addition to the bonuses provided), allow the unit to gain the promotion of that sphere for a price. If that is the case, I MIGHT be able to see the point in wasting a great sage on one of these. For the most part though, a great person is generally better used on something else than these proposed buildings. The bonuses that you proposed might be worth it if they were built by normal means.

-Colin

Jojomo · Jan 30, 2010

First off, thanks to odalrick and Valkrionn for the pointers on applying the Strong promotion (saved me shouting an awful lot of profanities at my PC). I've currently got this implemented so there's a dummy effect promotion (XML in spoiler). Basically it's automatically acquired when in the city with the Academy of Blood, and degrades to Strong in one turn (also, I've left in the XML for the Academy to grant Strong to units passing through so it looks right in the Pedia). Can anyone think of a way to acquire the Strong promotion immediately?

Spoiler :

odalrick said:
I've seen lots of comments that Stoneskin is powerful, but I don't see it myself. Three first strikes is good, but easily countered and +2 defence only works on the defence and is easily shaved off with a sacrificial summon or warrior.

Besides, you have to move to the city to get it. Compare to Blessed, which gives that all important offensive +1 strength and can be replenished by any Confessor and is also available via Altar.

The problem is that anything that makes the sea slightly worthwhile for other civs runs the risk of shooting the Lanun into the stratosphere.

I don't think 1 for sea squares will, though. 312 is good, but not out of line with land tiles. At worst they could get a unique building for the water academy.

Still not sure about Stoneskin, I intended the buildings (mostly) to effect cities rather than units (hence free Wall of Stone). Anyone else have any thoughts on this one?

On the water academy issue, on reflection I agree, 1 hammer on water is probably better.

nikosison said:
Too weak, seconding adding no for city.

After some thought, I agree with this too, health's dirt cheap as it is (first post edited).

nikosison said:
Seem too powerful too me. +15% might be better

This is one I wasn't sure on, because there aren't a lot of buildings that have this effect, I thought 25% might be too much, but again, that can be solved with playtesting.

nikosison said:
A revelation effect maybe? Maybe allow one unit to cast revelation ala Shrine of Sirona?

Possible, I've considered it, but nothing I can think of for the sun academy really strikes me as being great.

nikosison said:
Make it a permanent version then its ok.

Hmmm, I'll probably pick a different effect for the Air academy. Actually, I've just had a thought for the elemental academies. Each could grant a promotion to units passing through the city related to the sphere (+ :strength:

for fire, + :move:

/ withdrawal chance for air, +healing rate for water, +first strikes for Earth (possibly just Stoneskin) and... something for Ice)?

Edit: Alternately, how about +2 :traderoute:

in all coastal cities?

nikosison said:
Maybe give units in the city the stealh promo?

If it's to oppose the Sun effect, perhaps granting a promotion "Infiltrator" or something like that allows recon units to explore enemy territory and allows them to insert culture into rival cities (a la Scions Doomsayer mechanic)?

nikosison said:
I like the idea. I've had similar ideas before but I didn't really bother to flesh themout. Anyway good job

Cheers!

Imuratep said:
...the time and the money you need to get them is WAY too high. Reduce it to 50 gold and 3 turns and I will use it. Don't use the extremes for balancing (as your Khazad, Amurites example). FFH is about being broken sometimes. Amurites should have a strong late game thus if they can become very powerful it's not that bad. And Khazad anyway should only be able to gain level I spells (and those are not that strong). And as readercolin already said great sages are worth a lot in nearly every phase of the game.

The time and money thing is something I'll most likely tweak, but after some playtesting. My example for rolling in gold is not specific to the Khazad (except for a minor synergy with earth mana), so I'd argue in the endgame 50 :gold:

and 100

are both peanuts, while even 500 :gold:

is still a paltry sum (especially in this case where you only have a limited number of Top tier casters to spend it on anyway).

Kraydak said:
Put me down for making the buildings mana-providers, less in absolute terms than the Shrines, but much more flexible. Sure, the Amurites could churn out high xp units, but then, so can a lot of people, and high xp *good* units would actually be very, very expensive if getting churned. I mean, if you have burned 5 GSs on these buildings, you aren't anywhere near the early game, and those "high xp" units will be needing upgrading to top tier units.

On the point about high-xp units, I'll agree a lot of civs can do that trick... but building units at level 5/6, that can then upgrade into (I think) any unit line? I think it's a bit too much. Also, it only takes 5 :gold:

to upgrade an apprentice to a Bladedancer and 85 :gold:

to a Spellsword (the axeman and champion analogues respectively). Considering you can easily engineer all your apprentices to start with Fire 1, we'd be talking here about a unit which (at construction) has the ability to sling fireballs (Spellswords have channelling 2) and could quite possibly have mobility and up to Combat 3. With access to iron that gives something that's superior in every way to the Luichirp's fireball-slinging Iron Golems, and can be promoted.

Kraydak said:
Mainly though, I want the mana to satisfy my completionist urges, rather than a whole new slew of building effects that would just make it worse!

I get those urges to man, but I'm not going to pander to mine or yours.

You'll just have to deal with it!

Also, I really wanted something that wasn't just "MOAR MANA" (although I'm considering adding World Wonders that can be built if you have all the Elementalism academies for example, which could add mana).

readercolin said:
Let me get this straight - you want these buildings to (in addition to the bonuses provided), allow the unit to gain the promotion of that sphere for a price. If that is the case, I MIGHT be able to see the point in wasting a great sage on one of these. For the most part though, a great person is generally better used on something else than these proposed buildings. The bonuses that you proposed might be worth it if they were built by normal means.

-Colin

That's right Colin. Just out of curiosity, what would you rather use the GP for? What would make you want to use this option instead of that (bigger effects from the buildings/ cheaper training etc,)?

Unrelated to the above, I'd point out that these academies will make the arcane mastery promotions MUCH easier to acquire (instead of the 67 promotions you currently need), so do bear that in mind if you haven't already. This was actually another reason I had for making the module, because barring careful upgrade paths for my arcane units, even getting Mastery of Alteration and the like would take a huge amount of promotions that could be better spent elsewhere.

odalrick · Jan 30, 2010

Jojomo said:
Can anyone think of a way to acquire the Strong promotion immediately?

Possibly.

Spoiler :

Suppose it was a spell instead:

Code:

<SpellInfo>			<!-- Grant Strong Dummy -->
    <Type>SPELL_GRANT_STRONG_DUMMY</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_SPELL_GRANT_STRONG_DUMMY</Description>
    <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_SPELL_GRANT_STRONG_DUMMY_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
    <bAllowAI>1</bAllowAI>
    <AddPromotionType1>PROMOTION_STRONG</AddPromotionType1>
    <bBuffCasterOnly>1</bBuffCasterOnly>
    <Effect>EFFECT_STONESKIN</Effect>
    <Sound>AS3D_SPELL_STONESKIN</Sound>
    <Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Spells/Stoneskin.dds</Button>
    <PyRequirement>pCaster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_GRANT_STRONG_DUMMY')) and False</PyRequirement>
    <bGraphicalOnly>1</bGraphicalOnly>
    <BuildingPrereq>BUILDING_ACADEMY_OF_BLOOD</BuildingPrereq>
    <bAbility>1</bAbility>
    <bInCityOnly>1</bInCityOnly>
    <bIgnoreHasCasted>1</bIgnoreHasCasted>
    <bCasterMustBeAlive>1</bCasterMustBeAlive>
</SpellInfo>

PyRequirement works almost exactly like PyResult, only as soon as all xml requirements are passed. So by making the PyRequirement have an effect it happens as soon as the spell could otherwise be cast. Just ensure that the effect prevents the spell from being cast again and it's almost like a hypothetical bMustCastImmediately tag.

The and False part of the PyRequirement is just to ensure the spell is never reported to be castable. I don't know what pCaster.cast returns (probably None) but if by chance it was a true value you could cast the spell.

bAbility means that it wont be interrupted by the Amurites, bGraphicalOnly hides the spell from the player. bIgnoreHasCasted means that a unit that has cast a spell will still be able to gain the promotion.

You may want to remove Effect and Sound or change them. The Button should never show up during normal play, so it doesn't matter. I usually make a single (fairly ugly) button for each module that I use for any graphics that shouldn't show up. It makes them stand out if they do show up and easy to trace.

edit: Forgot bCasterMustBeAlive . You may want to make a Scion replacement, Academy of Ichor (Corpus).

Imuratep · Jan 30, 2010

Jojomo said:
The time and money thing is something I'll most likely tweak, but after some playtesting. My example for rolling in gold is not specific to the Khazad (except for a minor synergy with earth mana), so I'd argue in the endgame 50 and 100 are both peanuts, while even 500 is still a paltry sum (especially in this case where you only have a limited number of Top tier casters to spend it on anyway).

But I don't think anyone would use it. I for my part would buy Spellsphere Level I + Spellsphere Level II to wait a bit until I get enough XP to promote my unit to Spellsphere Level III as I can use 500 :gold:

a lot of better.

odalrick · Jan 30, 2010

Imuratep said:
But I don't think anyone would use it. I for my part would buy Spellsphere Level I + Spellsphere Level II to wait a bit until I get enough XP to promote my unit to Spellsphere Level III as I can use 500 a lot of better.

That sounds good, I don't think it's supposed to be the main way to get spells and make xp completely pointless.

At level 6 it will take about 22 turns to get another promotion, if you use the FlatXP module, forever if you don't. Paying 500 gold to double that promotion rate isn't that much.

The real cost of the training is the time investment and I think it's at the appropriate level to start with. If it turns out to be to long in playtesting it can be lowered.

readercolin · Jan 30, 2010

My only issue with your academies was that as national wonders, they are nice and well balanced for the most part (just the bonuses that they give). However, due to the rareness of great people, none of these buildings really gives me an effect that "Yes, I WANT that building" and I'm going to use a great person to get it. If however it is possible to get the promotions from that spell sphere (which I was uncertain about after reading your post), then these buildings would be worth using a great person on, even without the bonuses, provided that it still allows you to do so after changing your mana nodes away from that buildings mana type after construction.

-Colin

Calavente · Jan 30, 2010

readercolin said:
Let me get this straight - you want these buildings to (in addition to the bonuses provided), allow the unit to gain the promotion of that sphere for a price. If that is the case, I MIGHT be able to see the point in wasting a great sage on one of these. For the most part though, a great person is generally better used on something else than these proposed buildings. The bonuses that you proposed might be worth it if they were built by normal means.

I disagree.
Those buildings are almost worth a holy shrine, and are worth more than an actual academy!
thus the use of a GS is at least necessary. they are good proposals, but the version you proposed (or the ones most peoples proposed) are mostly too good IMO.

I'll explain :
first : to Jojomo : That's a really great work !!
then : explanations :

A holy shrine needs :
-a holy city ==> you can't chose the city, Only 1 in the world.
most of the times, you can't choose the religion as someone may have gotten it from under your nose.
-a prophet
A holy shrine gives :
-1 mana,
-1 effect,
-1gold/science per city with religion... ==> needs spreading.

lastly : a GP is not really good for anything save Holy shrines and the altar

Your academies needs
-a mana ==> transitory, with dispel you can always find the right mana.
-a GS
it gives :
-effect
-learning the mana spells with money ==> ie without loosing any XP !!!! über powerful, roughly equal to giving the mana itself.

advantages versus holy shrine :
-you can chose the magical academy you want (no influence on what does the other guys)
-you can chose the city in which to build the magical academy => you tailor it with your needs
-the GS is already more interesting than a GP : more uses (academy, more beakers for bulbing techs, generaly easier to get)

conclusion :
your magical academy have effects that are balanced with HS and cost as much as a normal academy but :
-it is much less demanding/binding than a holy shrine
-it is worth more than an academy
==> a bit too powerful !

My suggestions to make them more balanced : make them less easy to have ! :
-World Wonders ==> depends on what your ennemies do.
-need mana (either node ==> need the accurate mana tech, or HS, or Palace, Or free mana already on the map ==>- your neighbours may have an advantage for getting the academy you want without knowing how to build a node)==> only for building, not for giving bonus or learning the related spells
-need KOE (as it is related to the arcane)
-need each a "mundane" tech... no real reason... just so all thoses acadmies need more than a arcane speciallisation and to rise the cost to get those.
maybe you can balance it so the less interesting academies are related to lower techs, and so that the more powerful academies are related to tier 3 techs !!

for me, the 3 last ones replace the need of any of the tech elementalism/necromancy...etc (those already have the towers as related wonders)

my 0.2

thanks for taking the time to read all this

Module: Arcane Academies

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