Supply Trains?

[elisk]

Nothing whatsoever implies it will be in it, but they should be included. Realistic ones, that you need to protect and can be disrupted. Thoughts?

[Abaddon]

I agree.

[MeteorPunch]

A good way to slow early expansion. Supply can be replenished when you sack a city or a resource.

[berni19]

I am a big fan of supply and logistic idea. I think that this should be made as simple as it could, because strategic elements should not prevail over tactics, but must be present if you asked me.

[Camikaze]

I'm against supply units forming trains, but one of my pet 'wants' is for fully automated yet customisable supply lines. And it just so happens that these work better with hexagons. So here's hoping that they are adopted to some extent. And given that there is apparently a whole new military/combat system, it is conceivable that this could be one of the features of it.

[Kissamies]

I wouldn't like a some sort of new unit type you'd have to move around. That'd be way too much micro. Some sort of abstracted supply line system would be great, though. Maybe it could work a bit like trade routes. If the enemy manages to "blockade" your army, you'll be in trouble.

[elisk]

I like Kissamies' and Camikaze's ideas. Thats kind of what I meant, and I definitely did not mean units. Maybe they could function a little like trade routes in 4 did. And perhaps units would get supplied from cities directly, like in civ2?

[mitsho]

Yes, but NO new unit please ;-) A layer that shows you the strings, which then can be disrupted. Ok, but not more. And for me, this would be a minor feature. But if it is in, then please do it right and not a hasty way.

[Double A]

Originally Posted by Kissamies

I wouldn't like a some sort of new unit type you'd have to move around. That'd be way too much micro. Some sort of abstracted supply line system would be great, though. Maybe it could work a bit like trade routes. If the enemy manages to "blockade" your army, you'll be in trouble.

Yeah, like if there is no direct route from one of your cities to your army (ie on a peninsula and enemy cuts them off), they take some sort of penalty, or if they can't reach the coast and/or you have no navy.

[Kissamies]

When they don't get supplied, they can't heal and start taking self-damage. That's the simplest model, I think. The supply could also affect maintenance costs. An garrison unit within own borders should be base cost. An unit that has fought last round should be +1x. Unit in enemy territory should be 2x. If the supply line to a land unit has to cross water, it's 4x. If the supplies must be dropped from air, its 10x. Not sure of the exact multipliers, but you get the idea. Maybe the player could voluntarily cut supply off for an unit if it was too expensive.

Pillaging should have an effect too. If an unit pillages an improvement, it'll have the "self supplied" bonus state for a round or two. Better results with towns and villages than with other improvements.

[climat]

Originally Posted by Kissamies

When they don't get supplied, they can't heal and start taking self-damage. That's the simplest model, I think. The supply could also affect maintenance costs. An garrison unit within own borders should be base cost. An unit that has fought last round should be +1x. Unit in enemy territory should be 2x. If the supply line to a land unit has to cross water, it's 4x. If the supplies must be dropped from air, its 10x. Not sure of the exact multipliers, but you get the idea. Maybe the player could voluntarily cut supply off for an unit if it was too expensive.

Pillaging should have an effect too. If an unit pillages an improvement, it'll have the "self supplied" bonus state for a round or two. Better results with towns and villages than with other improvements.

Seconded!

[Silurian]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=341728
Try this thread

[Tavenier]

I don't like supply trains. Too much unfun micromanagement. I would rather see the early expansion get more difficult by limiting movement for boats and land units.
Ships can travel further from a port the more naval techs you acquire. And armies can move away further if techs like pottery, medicine and perhaps logistics are researched.

This way it also opens up more diplomatic opportunities. Your ally can provide some support for your troops, especially if they travel through their nation.

[Herrhals]

if anyone has played Rise of nations, they have an awesome system of attrition to unsupplied units in enemy territory. attrition would decrease health of the unit every second it's in enemy territory. Attrition could be increased and decreased depending on tech and you'd have to have supply wagons in the radius in order to gain immunity from attrition. Also, siege weapons fired 2X as fast if supplied. Also, this idea makes it necessary for players to be organized and goal-orientated in their attacks (also bc of pop limit) unlike in cIV where you can just hurl a billion units at the enemy and hope for the best.

The need for supply wagons creates more defensive opportunity for the defender if the aggressor is not guarding their SW's well enough. Think Nap and Hitler invading russia.

[So?]

Originally Posted by Herrhals

if anyone has played Rise of nations, they have an awesome system of attrition to unsupplied units in enemy territory. attrition would decrease health of the unit every second it's in enemy territory. Attrition could be increased and decreased depending on tech and you'd have to have supply wagons in the radius in order to gain immunity from attrition. Also, siege weapons fired 2X as fast if supplied. Also, this idea makes it necessary for players to be organized and goal-orientated in their attacks (also bc of pop limit) unlike in cIV where you can just hurl a billion units at the enemy and hope for the best.

The need for supply wagons creates more defensive opportunity for the defender if the aggressor is not guarding their SW's well enough. Think Nap and Hitler invading russia.

Is anyone here familiar with A World at War / Advanced Third Reich? I know they are much more combat centric than CIV and putting that level of detail in the combat system would probably overwhelm players, but it does an admirable job of solving all of the "front line" problems addressed here. In those games, if you can't trace a clear (ZoC free) path to a city (well, an unlimited supply source, but for CIV's purposes, let's say "city") your units suffer lots of negative consequences, and die unless they can be resupplied by the end of the turn. In the Pacific, units don't (always) die but continue to suffer movement and defensive penalties. It seems that model would be appropriate for civ -- if your units get cut off in enemy territory, they don't "die" but they move slower (or not at all?) and are easier to kill (i.e. they lose their defensive bonuses, and/or get a negative defensive bonus).

[morss_4]

For those of you who are interested Hearts of Iron III, a game by Paradox about WWII has a tremendously complicated supply system. You produce supplies, which are stored in depots, which then go to units at the front line through infrastructure. If the infrastructure in a province isn't high enough, then you'll have limited throughput, which creates a bottleneck, which in turn will lead to units at the front being out of supply. Units without supply cannot attack, take large combat penalties and gradually lose organization. Units overseas have to be supplied by convoys, which can be sunk by naval units. You can also build transport planes to supply units via airdrop.

Nothing anything like this belongs in Civ. The reasons are two fold:

1. It is way too complicated for a game who's focus is not on war.
2. They're on their 4th patch and the system is still a bit buggy.

If Civ V has any kind of supply system (and frankly I don't think it should) it should be exceedingly simple. If you want to fiddle with supply networks those games are out there, but I don't think Civ should be one of them.

[Tholish]

Unsupplied units don't heal (and start to decay even if they don't enter combat). Unsupplied units that require oil can't move either. If you can trace a line through your territory to one of your connected cities on a route, you are supplied. Same way you would check to see if you have the resources needed to build a railroad on a tile. When you move a unit through enemy territory it becomes your territory until recaptured, but at a tiny combat strength cost (presumably you ar leaving a miniscule number of troops behind to secure the terrain). So you can cut off a "supply line" (the path an invader cut as it invaded) by simply moving across it.

[berni19]

Perhaps this could be solved by some sort of allocate points ( production shiels which transform to a "supply shields")...so example you plan to attack 10-15 hex distance city, you need at leat 15 +attack +in case shields along with you. This mean for example 10 units with 15 shields - you need 150 shiels towards logistic support for the war. In case your unit is destroyed, shields are gone. Could be created also some "paramedic" unit equipped with shields which suplly them to the front units. Shields are needed also for attack movements and so on.....Perhaps not in Civ V, but some mode done by "supply lover" like i am.

[Viatrix]

I like the idea of supply routes. But are those really necessary?

I know ordinary roads aren't supply routes, but don't they remind enough of them? Supplying your frontline is (currently) basically moving more troops there, and in order to do that fast you use roads. But your enemy can slow you down by destroying your roads via planes (or why not with land units?). And as we know, there won't be road spaghetti in CiV.

[berni19]

I like the idea of supply routes. But are those really necessary?

Depends how we all see this game. Perhaps some of us wants more war elements installed, but not too much. I know this is difficult to satisfy, but i hope that modders could produce some additional stuff in this direction - if the game is really moddable as they say..