Q: Commerce vs Wealth

RD-BH

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Mar 5, 2009
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Formerly: Missouri, USA
Upfront:
... this is not a game, I have staged this in worldbuilder to demonstrate what has me puzzled.

I was running an all priest economy intending to fund my research by deficit spending.

Spoiler :
I have just built my 4th city (5th if you count capital) and created a negative cash flow.


I compensate with more priests and for the first time notice :commerce:commerce and :gold:wealth are not the same thing.
Spoiler :
Priest = 0 research


I add market.
Spoiler :
Market = 0 research


I build wealth.
Spoiler :
Wealth = 0 research


I build and work 2 silver mines ...
Spoiler :
Worked silver mines = research


What about deficit spending all the money I have (I know, I know! Treasury = 9:gold: Pretend there's more)?
Spoiler :
... NO deficit spending! (my ALL priest economy was a bad idea :cry:)


Now ... my puzzler :confused:
Spoiler :
I switch from priest economy to tile economy (ie I pay the bills from working tiles). [3 Photos follow]

Slight surplus, 0% research.


I stop working tiles.
9:gold: -9:gold:/turn. Deficit!


Then, I return to a priest economy with 100% research ...
... What happened??? I expected - -9 (expenses) +4 (priests) -1 (conversion to research)**
I did not expect -13 ... I just don't know what I'm seeing here. I want to say it's my -3:gold: priest economy and -10:commerce: unworked silver mines, but I really don't know.

**okay, I actually expected more research but now understand that ain't gonna happen.


Can someone clarify what I'm overlooking? Also, why can't you spenddown the treasury for research?
 
The slider is a whole-of-civilization attribute. Your analysis assumes that the slider affects only this city. When you change from zero to 100 you are affecting the conversion of commerce to stuff over all of your cities, not just this one.

So when you switch to 100% science you are spending down the treasury - you're over-spending it too.

The civilization-wide net result of the slider position is shown in the top left hand corner.

There is no way to show the "per city expenses" because it's not meaningful, since a bunch of the expenses are not city-based. The F2 advisor shows an expense breakdown, however.
 
The slider is a whole-of-civilization attribute. Your analysis assumes that the slider affects only this city. When you change from zero to 100 you are affecting the conversion of commerce to stuff over all of your cities, not just this one.

So when you switch to 100% science you are spending down the treasury - you're over-spending it too.

The civilization-wide net result of the slider position is shown in the top left hand corner.

There is no way to show the "per city expenses" because it's not meaningful, since a bunch of the expenses are not city-based. The F2 advisor shows an expense breakdown, however.

So, if I'm understanding you right ... I have the -3:gold: priest economy and I am causing conversion of the 1:commerce: city centers and the 8:commerce: palace (the only other :commerce: I have).

Duh! I am sorry I am so thick sometimes. 8)
What can I say? ... I didn't even know there was a difference 'til I played this arboria map.
 
Okay, let's call :gold: "wealth" for this post, it's not a bad choice :)



When you settled that fourth city, your city costs (maintenance) increased. City maintenance can be viewed on each city's screen, and is a wealth :)gold:) subtraction, not a commerce :)commerce:) subtraction. (This is a little different from mabraham's post above, but otherwise everything he said was totally correct, especially the analysis of Htadus' 5 different items).



More or less. It's actually if your wealth exceeds city/troop maintenance costs. You can also run a deficit. Okay, here's a worked example:

Let's say you have maintenance costs of 50 :gold: per turn from all cities and troops. You are running 20 priests which generate 20 :gold: per turn, and your cities' worked tiles with cottages and resources generate 100 :commerce:. We ignore trade routes and some other stuff; this is just to get the concept across.

Assume you have a treasury of 200 accumulated :gold:.

If you run your science :)science:) slider at 0% this turn, then those 100 :commerce: are converted into a final product of 100 :gold: (150 if each of your cities has a Market and a Grocer). Your wealth balance is +100 from commerce conversion, -50 from maintenance, and +20 from priests, for a net of +70 wealth per turn. Next turn your treasury would grow to 270 wealth.

If you run your science slider at 100% this turn, then those 100 :commerce: are converted into a final product of 100 :science: (125 if each of your cities has a Library). But you are losing 30 :gold: per turn because your priests generate 20 and your costs are 50, and therefore your treasury drops by 30 :gold: per turn. Next turn your treasury would drop to 170 :gold:.


So ...

It's fine to run a deficit budget for a while. When your treasury runs out and you are still running a deficit, Civ will automatically decrease your slider until you break even. If you can't break even at 0% slider you are in trouble and your units start to go on strike (and start to get auto-deleted)

Also, you don't necessarily need to run priest specialists to directly generate wealth to fight maintenance. You could also have those citizens work more cottage tiles to generate more commerce, and run a lower science slider to convert more of that commerce to wealth. You might even find that your empire's net :science: rate is better that way.

This post, by beestar, takes on a whole new meaning for me. My game can only improve by understanding WHAT I need to increase to pay for troops and/or research.**



**Some might say, given so few wins, it is a mathematical certainty my game can only improve! :lol:
 
One final note on deficit spending.
... You can NEVER deficit spend from commerce.
... When you drive commerce conversions to 100% and see the treasury drop in value (red/yellow numbers), you are NOT deficit spending from commerce.
... Wealth is required to pay those city/troop costs.
... All you have been doing is converting commerce:)commerce:) to building wealth:)gold:) in order to pay the bills:)gold:).

This seems an inefficient way to pay expenses (though necessary in the early game).
... Later, merchant specialists with a market, grocer, bank, and courthouse (1/2 city cost) should be more efficient at paying the bills and less wasteful than a 10% block of commerce converted when you only needed 5%. (I wonder if one or two cities building wealth could pay the empirewide overhead).
... The ability to redirect that 5% commerce to research, culture, and espionage should increase the overall efficiency of those endeavors.

If you overdrive your wealth when not needed (tech purchases, bribing, etc) then you are wasting time and money (not a good idea on immortal).
 
One final note on deficit spending.
... You can NEVER deficit spend from commerce.
... When you drive commerce conversions to 100% and see the treasury drop in value (red/yellow numbers), you are NOT deficit spending from commerce.
... Wealth is required to pay those city/troop costs.
... All you have been doing is converting commerce:)commerce:) to building wealth:)gold:) in order to pay the bills:)gold:).

This seems an inefficient way to pay expenses (though necessary in the early game).
... Later, merchant specialists with a market, grocer, bank, and courthouse (1/2 city cost) should be more efficient at paying the bills and less wasteful than a 10% block of commerce converted when you only needed 5%. (I wonder if one or two cities building wealth could pay the empirewide overhead).
... The ability to redirect that 5% commerce to research, culture, and espionage should increase the overall efficiency of those endeavors.

If you overdrive your wealth when not needed (tech purchases, bribing, etc) then you are wasting time and money (not a good idea on immortal).
Think of commerce as goods and services ... some of this goes into research, some of it can be converted to currency (wealth) and go into the treasury as legal tender to pay bills. Food and building materials (hammers) are produced and managed separately.

If I am not mistaken, when you build wealth or science out of hammers, it is not enhanced by any of the multipliers from library, market, etc. (if it is, then my game is misbehaving ... :lol: or maybe :sad:).

So it might be that running unlimited merchants in a city with all of the wealth multipliers is the way to go rather than building wealth out of hammers there, as a way to pay the bills. Ultimately, the goal may be to run 100% science so that a few highly specialized science cities are optimized (all of their trade route, cottage and resource commerce is going into science and then multiplied to the max), and then figure out how to pay the bills by running merchants in other cities specialized for wealth multiplication (or by conquest cash, or by selling old techs to backward AI).

dV
 
One final note on deficit spending.
... You can NEVER deficit spend from commerce.
... When you drive commerce conversions to 100% and see the treasury drop in value (red/yellow numbers), you are NOT deficit spending from commerce.

Nothing is ever subtracted from commerce. It's all converted to some final product, and then used.

... Wealth is required to pay those city/troop costs.
... All you have been doing is converting commerce:)commerce:) to building wealth:)gold:) in order to pay the bills:)gold:).

This seems an inefficient way to pay expenses (though necessary in the early game).
... Later, merchant specialists with a market, grocer, bank, and courthouse (1/2 city cost) should be more efficient at paying the bills and less wasteful than a 10% block of commerce converted when you only needed 5%. (I wonder if one or two cities building wealth could pay the empirewide overhead).

There's really no waste. If you need 5% commerce->wealth, you run one turn at 90% and one at 100%. Better still, run one turn at 0% and 19 at 100%, because you get a free beaker on the 0% turn, and no rounding losses ever. Search for binary research in the forums.

The market, grocer and bank don't generate anything on their own. You have to be producing wealth from specialists or the commerce slider for them to multiply. Mouse-over the :gold: production in the top left of the city display to see a breakdown. Building wealth doesn't get those multipliers, it gets the production bonuses.

Whether you should work :commerce: tiles and accept that you aren't running 100% science, or run 100% science and run specialists, etc. to pay the bills is situation-dependent. Being Financial or Philosophical changes that decision one way or the other. Some of your cities will be specialized so that locally the decision is different (the great person points make specialists right in your NE city, cottages are best in your Bureaucratic capital). Remember each specialist costs two food to support, whereas working a town *earns* 1-2 food as well as a pile of commerce.

... The ability to redirect that 5% commerce to research, culture, and espionage should increase the overall efficiency of those endeavors.

If you overdrive your wealth when not needed (tech purchases, bribing, etc) then you are wasting time and money (not a good idea on immortal).

The important thing is normally your average beakers per turn. Stockpiling :gold: can be the way to maximize this, but that's a topic that has been discussed elsewhere.
 
It seems, RD-BH, that you are interested in drawing some sort of conclusions from what you are being told. So, I'm going to skip directly to some conclusions for you.

Do what I suggest, even if you do not understand why. Try out all of my suggestions at once in another practice game. You will see a TREMENDOUS difference compared to the game that we see in your screenshots.


A) Do you see those mined Silver Resource squares in your images, the ones with 1 Food, 2 Hammers, and 5 Commerce each? Be sure that those squares are worked! One Priest Specialist will net you far less benefit than one of those Silver Resources squares.

In fact, if you are using Slavery to Whip production in that city with 2 Deer Resources and 2 Silver Resources, I would ask that once that city grows to size 4 population, never whip the population to a value below 4 population and thus never stop working those 2 Deer Resources and 2 Silver Resources with your minimum population of 4 population. So, if you need to whip a unit that requires the sacrifice of 1 person to whip, do so when the city's population is 5 population or higher. If you need to whip a building that requires the sacrifice of 2 people to whip, do so when the city's population is 6 population or higher.

For a beginner player, I would suggest that you ALWAYS make an effort to work any mined Silver Resource square, as long as you are also working enough other Food-producing squares for your city's population to still be growing.

I would give you the same suggestion for any mined Gold Resource square or any mined Gem Resource square: be sure to work those squares at all times, as long as you have enough Food from other squares being worked for your city to still grow.


B) If your city is working a Forested square that is next to a river, then you need to get a Worker to that square as soon as possible. Have that Worker either Irrigate (i.e. put a Farm on) that square OR have that worker put a Cottage on that square. Compared to leaving the Forest there, choosing either one of those options is better.

If you remove the Forest from the square that is next to a River, you will gain 1 additional Commerce by working that square than you would by working that square when the Forest is there. You will ALSO get the benefit of more Food (from the Irrigated Farm) or of more Commerce (from the Cottage) whenever your city is working that square.

I notice that in your screenshots, you are researching Math. DO NOT WAIT until you have Researched Math to implement this Forest-clearing suggestion. Start Irrigating or putting Cottages on the riverside squares earlier in the game, as soon as you have researched Bronze Working plus the relevant technology of Agriculture (for Irrigated Farms) or Pottery (for Cottages).

The reason why you do not want to wait is that you want any city working those squares to get one extra Commerce per turn as soon as possible. In so doing, you will be able to research Math even faster, meaning that you will get the additional Hammers from chopping Forests MUCH SOONER in your game, which will more than make up for "missing out" on some Hammers by chopping a Forest when you do not know the Math tech.

Similarly, if the square beside a river that has a Forest on it is a Hill square, then put a Mine on that square. You can do so immediately after researching the Bronze Working tech, without requiring you to research any additional techs.


C) In an Immortal level game, do not build The Pyramids. In fact, don't build any World Wonders except for one World Wonder. Pick the World Wonder that you want to build before you start the game. Write that Wonder down on a piece of paper. Build that World Wonder and only build that World Wonder. Don't build any others. If you do not see a Stone Resource in the game's starting screenshot, then you should not have written The Pyramids on your piece of paper--if you did write it down, scratch it out and pick a different World Wonder. :) If an AI beats you to building that World Wonder, don't build any other World Wonders. Yes, a non-beginner player might be able to ignore this advice, but for a beginner player, this advice is going to greatly improve your gameplay.

Certainly, you can and should build many National Wonders. It is the number of World Wonders that you should limit.


D) If you do not own The Pyramids, then I recommend that you limit the number of cities using Priest Specialists to TWO CITIES. Other cities should be working Resource squares (for example, Deer), mined Hill squares, Cottaged squares, or Irrigated Farm squares.

If you DO own The Pyramids AND if you switch your Civics to use the Representation Civic, THEN and ONLY THEN should you consider using Priest Specialists in more than two cities.

Why do so in only two cities? Well, the biggest benefit from Priest Specialists is going to be netting you Great Prophets as your generated Great People. The biggest cost is the loss of opportunity to make more than 1 Hammer and 1 Wealth for each citizen in your cities.

If you have two cities producing Great People, you will make relatively efficient use of your Great People Points.

If you have 3 or more cities making Great People by employing Priest Specialists, you will only be marginally getting Great Prophets faster. However, you will be absolutely killing your opportunity to make more Production (from Hammers), more Research (from Commerce), and more Wealth (from Commerce). The trade-off of losing out on that Production, Research, and Wealth in order to get then next Great Prophet a tiny bit faster is NOT WORTH DOING!


E) Build Roads. Not just randomly-built Roads. Not Roads on every square in your empire. Focus the placement of Roads so that your cities are connected to each other. Do so early in the game. As soon as you build a new city, do your best to make sure that Roads are connecting it to at least one other of your cities as soon as possible.

In so doing, you will be creating Trade Routes between your cities. Your screenshots show a complete lack of Trade Routes.

Not having Trade Routes is one of the main reasons why your economy is crashing on you so quickly. Think of Trade Routes as FREE Commerce. So, think of them as FREE Research and FREE Wealth.

All you need to do is connect your cities up by Roads to each other and your empire will see a HUGE relative gain in the amount of Commerce that you are making compared to what we see in your screenshots.

There are other ways to connect Trade Routes than by Roads, such as by using Rivers and by building cities next to Coast squares, but forget about that fact and simply BE SURE TO CONNECT EVERY ONE OF YOUR CITIES TO AT LEAST ONE OTHER OF YOUR CITIES BY ROADS!

If there is a path from your capital city to each of your cities by Roads, then you can get slightly more benefit from Trade Routes when your cities grow in size, but minimally have each city connected by Roads to at least one other city in order to gain the biggest relative benefit.


F) Build a Road on each of your Resource squares and make sure that said Road is connected to at least one of your cities by Roads. I notice that neither of your Silver Resources have Roads on them. You are missing out on potential FREE Happiness in each city. One more Happiness would mean having 1 less Warrior per city when using the Hereditary Rule Civic, which it appears that you are using. When you have that many military units, each military unit could be costing you 1 more Wealth per turn.

So, simply by connecting your Silver Resource to your cities by a Road connection, you willl be able to reduce your Wealth expenses, meaning that you can put that unspent Wealth to better uses.

If you connect all of your Resources in this way, you may eventually be able to trade some of your duplicate Resources to some of the AI, in exchange for their Resources or for a payment of Wealth per Turn (aka Gold per Turn).


G) Be careful when you switch around the squares that a city is working, as well as which Speciliasts the city is employing. Notice that in some of your screenshots, you have actually hired the Citizen Specalists, the dudes in grey with the hats on their heads, located just beneath your Priest Specialists. You do not want to hire Citizen Specialists. Instead, make sure that you switch those Citizen Specialists to either be a different kind of Specliast (such as a Priest Specialist) or to be working one of your city's squares, such as a Silver Resource.
 
^@Dhoomstriker,
Good Advice.
But perhaps you mistook his WorldBuilder examples as an actual game.
for example, he probably builds roads and connects his resources in a real game.
 
^@Dhoomstriker,
Good Advice.
But perhaps you mistook his WorldBuilder examples as an actual game.
for example, he probably builds roads and connects his resources in a real game.

His original posts in another thread specifically stated he hadn't built any trade routes.

Dhoomstriker's advice is excellent. There is almost no situation in which you should fail to work mined silver and camped deer. Not arranging for roads between cities is also misguided. Using citizens is almost always wrong, and usually wrong even when running Representation.
 
@ Dhoomstriker: very clear, direct and effective advice ... maybe you should put this in the war academy.

Could call it wealth management, the executive summary :lol: ;) :goodjob:

dV
 
Dhoomstriker's advice is excellent. There is almost no situation in which you should fail to work mined silver and camped deer. Not arranging for roads between cities is also misguided. Using citizens is almost always wrong, and usually wrong even when running Representation.

I agree with one exception. There is one major use for citizens. That is when you a trying to get a specific great person. If City A can get a GE that the player want in 2 turns but it turns out that City B will pop a different GPerson next turn due to running specialists, then it would be the time to run a few citizens. If a tile is available, then by all means work it. Growth is never a bad thing. Specially if you are in slavery. :)
 
His original posts in another thread specifically stated he hadn't built any trade routes.

Dhoomstriker's advice is excellent. There is almost no situation in which you should fail to work mined silver and camped deer. Not arranging for roads between cities is also misguided. Using citizens is almost always wrong, and usually wrong even when running Representation.

Dead on accurate.
In my defense I was playing. I wanted to experiment with the effects of a workerless environment on the arboria map. I figured the easiest way to attempt that was with the priests, since Hatty can produce so many. Without workers, trade routes just didn't exist.

On the plus side, I began to discover what I did not know about commerce. 8)

Regarding citizens, I have found several oppurtunities with gold cities where building up food reserves and burning it down with just citizens can get production completed on time (not my first choice to be sure ... but every little bit helps in an emergency).
 
Something that needs to be added to this discussion :)

On multipliers:

-One of the most important strategical implications of the distinction between commerce :)commerce:) and gold/wealth :)gold:) or science/beakers :)science:) is the value and management of stuff that multiply these different resources.

-Libraries, universities, observatories, research labs and of course Oxford University multiply :science: gained from either conversion of :commerce: through the slider, directly from specialists or some other means like state religion buildings coupled with University of Sankore. The only source of :science: these dont multiply is the :science: gained from building research.

-Markets, grocers, banks and Wall Street work the exact same way with respect to :gold:

-This means that the value of the above mentioned buildings depend on how you use your slider. In other words, if you convert more commerce to :gold:, than you convert to :science:, then banks etc. are more valuable. Of course, you have to account for specialists too.

-But it just so happens that the :science:-multipliers are easier to come by, and usually more practical to build, i.e. libraries are much cheaper and come earlier than any of the :gold:-multipliers, Oxford comes earlier than Wall Street and the total percentage gain potential is greater (relevant for space race games).

-Thus, taking advantage of "slider mechanics" usually means that you aim to convert as much :commerce: to :science: as possible, and thus you want to make your :gold: in alternative ways to accomplish this.

-To make it clear: This is a good reason to build universities etc. before banks etc. in any decent commerce generating city (usually one that works cottages). Also, this is why building wealth and running a higher slider is better than building research and using the slider for :gold:

-Now, there are many ways to make :gold: other than through :commerce:. The most important is usually through building wealth. This converts :hammers: directly to :gold:, and thus, a city dedicated to building wealth will benefit most from :hammers:-multipliers, like forges. But really, you can consider building wealth in any city without a priority build available, dont start building marginal buildings just for the heck of it.

-Gold from trade is a very good way to up your slider too, which is another reason why getting currency ASAP is critical to your empires development. Taking currency from the oracle is a quite underrated move in my book, often way more desirable than other common uses like code of laws or metal casting (basically, I'd take currency before anything earlier than civil service)

-Other important things concerning :gold::
GM trade missions are very valuable, often, though indirectly, more in terms of resulting :science: than bulbing a GS, even though the direct :gold: gain is lower than the bulb amount.
Religious shrines of influence are prime locations to focus :gold:-multipliers. A city with a good religious shrine is usually where you will want to place your Wall Street, particularly if it also can generate good commerce too, since you rarely will be able to sustain a 100% slider anyway until late game. If you are going to found corporations, the headquarters obviously should go here too. In other words, combine your gold sources for the best effect.
Finally, if you are running specialists, generally use the one that combines best with the multipliers available in the city. Say, if you use nine specialists total outside your GP-farm(s), three in your Oxford city with all the science multipliers, three in a military city with forge and three in a random city with no multipliers, then the most efficient distribution (assumíng caste system) is, in the same order: three scientists, one engineer+ two merchants, three merchants.

-Finally, dont forget that the civic Bureaucracy multiplies :commerce: directly, which is very powerful in general, and makes the bureaucracy capital+Oxford combo one that almost always features in any well played game. Double multiplied :science: in one good city can usually supply more :science: than the rest of your cities combined for a fair part of the game.
 
As Fluro says, building Wealth is a key learning.

I got it from some of the more experienced Civfanatics members a few months ago, and it makes sense - the time it takes for a Market/Grocer/Bank to pay off could be many turns, and sometimes just building Wealth for those turns wins out. Especially if I have production multipliers in that city.
 
Growth is never a bad thing. Specially if you are in slavery. :)
I am never in slavery. Slavery is abhorrent. I am, however, frequently in pre-OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Adminsitration) mode, where in our rush to build things, we have ... well ... er ... "industrial accidents" ... which can unfortunately be fatal to citizens, and decreases their morale ... for a while. :D ;)

dV
 
-Other important things concerning :gold::
GM trade missions are very valuable, often, though indirectly, more in terms of resulting :science: than bulbing a GS, even though the direct :gold: gain is lower than the bulb amount.

In my test games I was building Artemis and using the GMerchants for currency.
I took CoL from Oracle and the GProphets to get to AP, which I then used priests to build. Without commerce, this failed due to lack of research, so at least the first worker is needed.

My question:
Since I get currency fairly early (whether from Oracle or GMerchants), would it not be valuable to dedicate an early city to production building wealth?
... A forge is pretty easy to get early.
... Using GMerchants on a trade mission seems to keep you in the unfavorable position of converting commerce to wealth.
... Deficit spending at 100% research is an illusion.
... Whenever commerce is less than expenses you are not paying the bills.
... With wealth paying the bills, every commerce source goes direct to research (early game).
 
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