Dr kossin #26

Welcome to Dr kossin #26.

Dr is an acronym for Daily Round. Yes, I mean to get in an update every day to the games I will be playing. Of course there might be some days where I can only play a little or not at all, but I will make up for it those other days when I do have extra time on my hands.

Since the 21st edition of this series, the difficulty level has been cranked all the way up to Deity. I'm not at the point where I can win every game thrown at me on Deity level... I probably can't even win every game thrown at me on Immortal but it is getting a bit boring. My goal is now to achieve competitive skills on this level which should hopefully help me improve more.

You, the reader, can help me achieve this goal by pointing out where I got astray, give suggestions on how to proceed, use complex abstract mathematical analysis to argue, curse at me or anything that you may like. Please note that you must respect the Terms of Service of CFC in any case

You may shadow this game and post it here if you please, but I kindly request that you put it in spoiler tags and that anyone reading the report abstain from using information found there to help me out.

Should you want more clarification about something I've done, just ask for it and I will try to answer as best as I can.

Enough talk, on to the game.

Dr kossin #26​

Round 1 The race is on
Round 2 A tale of REX
Round 3 Can't get them all
Round 4a Setting up the stage
Round 4b It's payback time
Round 5a The beginning of the end - Part I
Round 5b The beginning of the end - Part II
Round 6 The Grand Finale

Game settings
Deity
Normal Speed
Fractal
No Events
No Huts
BTS 3.19 with BUG 4.3 in CustomAssets and BULL 1.1
Everything else is normal.

I played a few turns in the map to ensure it's not isolation or semi-isolation.

The leader, this time, is:


Please refer to the Native America Civ IV wiki for more information on this leader/nation.

The start:


This looks like a great start to say the least. I've marked the hill as fresh water to indicate there's a lake just north of it.
It shouldn't be a tough call to settle 1S on the banana, it'll make a monster capital.
The gems will help push research faster towards Writing as Philosophical suggests generating early GPs.

Mining will be the first tech possibly followed by BW. That'll give us defense and production. As to the rest, map exploration is required before deciding anything.

If I have any goals for this map, then they are better exploration early on, better science (although this capital will certainly help) and if possible, complete military domination. I haven't done it on Deity yet and I need to get a feel for modern warfare rather than just winning space by 1 turn

That's a pretty ridiculous start. 1S nets you two corn (one wet), gems, and 4 grass hills??? It looks like coast to the south there so probably expand to the NW while avoiding the jungle. Don't forget to mine the gems early before you get jungle growth on it, as that'd suck.

It's just so green. In place is decent too, but 1S is nice to give a 3F monster cap. Given the coast to the south, I would consider just settling in place and saving the gems for a 2nd city.

The only thing about settling on the bananas is that you're possibly blocking yourself from being able to settle a city by the cost if there is some seafood there. But then again, I've seen too many times the blue circle being simply coast.

dirtyparrot said:

The only thing about settling on the bananas is that you're possibly blocking yourself from being able to settle a city by the cost if there is some seafood there. But then again, I've seen too many times the blue circle being simply coast.

Click to expand...

Starting BFC gems far outweighs losing a seafood or two.

2s imo and with such start the only danger are the spreading jungles.

??!?!?! What a monster capital. I'm going to laugh hard though if right beyond the green is ALL desert.

wow, Kermit doesn't know what he's talking about.

I'd say 1S. 2S looks like it will be one off the coast, and 3S is just too much of a gamble.

I don't suppose 1SW is worth loosing the second corn for even though you gain two calendar resources and the second gem over 1S?

Could you maybe wait 1 turn to settle for the warrior to check out the possibility of seafood from the gem hill? I play emperor, so maybe that extra turn is crucial in Deity?

1s vs 2s. The problem with 2s in "fishing" for seafood is that no immediate coastal access means you're looking at least having to wait until 2nd city to make the boat to work it. Setting 1s on banana is going to be a guaranteed early development considering you can work both corns and gems straight out the gate (after mining). 4 grass hills means pretty solid production, and all grass tiles is a cottage dream! Looks like great land east (river) and west too. Hard to go awry with this start

It looks to me as though, during the mid game, that dry corn is going to be worked by some other city

Wow, lots of discussion!
I promise to get back to it tomorrow... tonight I'm spending my time with my better half so no round for today it seems.

2s doesn't appeal to me for the 3 coastal tiles and the fact that the second gems tile can't be worked prior to IW anyway.

time to regenerate map?

I took a peek in WB. You should probably re-roll this start.

I vote 1SE regardless of the gems. A capital with that much surplus food/green will allow you to make it both - a bureaucracy capital along with a really powerful gp farm. (Surplus 11 food, 5½ specialists worth or alternatively work all 5 green mines and 3 specialists. Strong either way.)

I do agree that capital with gems is obviously strong as can be but you can spot a river next to the gems and since this is what I perceive as the center of the jungle belt - there's very likely to be food, be it bananas, rice or seafood in the coast.

1S is a good spot though, I just hate to see a banana go to waste.

Edit: Did take a peek at the WB as well. This, if any, should be casual.

Edit2: 1SW looks sweet too - it's not like you'll run out of food with all that green anyways.

I would settle 1SW. There is a chance that you will loose sea food but a capital with 2 gems, bananas, irrigated corn, dye, 2 hills and mass cottages is just to good to pass. Second corn can be used for second city. Keep up the good work Kossin. Love these games.

Whilst it looks a strong start how can you ever decide to restart without using WB. Surely Kossin deserves one easy deity game?

shyuhe said:

That's a pretty ridiculous start. 1S nets you two corn (one wet), gems, and 4 grass hills??? It looks like coast to the south there so probably expand to the NW while avoiding the jungle. Don't forget to mine the gems early before you get jungle growth on it, as that'd suck.

Click to expand...

Sounds like a pretty good plan. I like the bananas under the city tile to accelerate the first worker and initial growth

UWHabs said:

It's just so green. In place is decent too, but 1S is nice to give a 3F monster cap. Given the coast to the south, I would consider just settling in place and saving the gems for a 2nd city.

Click to expand...

That could work. I like having the gems in the BFC however as Cahokia is bound to get a library sooner than later so they will be multiplied towards science. No need to tell what that'll look under Bureaucracy+Academy.
Moreover, delaying them to a second or 3rd city means expansion might slow a bit since 1. you'll need a settler just for that area (how low/high priority is it? can't tell atm) 2. lower commerce for several turns = less techs.

I mean, pretty much every city spot proposed is fantastic given this land, I'm just trying to get what best fits my playstyle - although maybe this is a mistake for learning purposes.

dirtyparrot said:

The only thing about settling on the bananas is that you're possibly blocking yourself from being able to settle a city by the cost if there is some seafood there. But then again, I've seen too many times the blue circle being simply coast.

Click to expand...

3 water tiles will be lost I think so it's not that bad imo. BFC gems should make up for any lost food. IIrc, in BtS the blue circles have absolutely 0 hidden information knowledge so don't entrust your settlers to them.

shyuhe said:

Starting BFC gems far outweighs losing a seafood or two.

Click to expand...

Amen.

bestsss said:

2s imo and with such start the only danger are the spreading jungles.

Click to expand...

2s looks good but the coastal tiles and the jungle would suck.

Riot said:

??!?!?! What a monster capital. I'm going to laugh hard though if right beyond the green is ALL desert.

Click to expand...

Well, it looks like jungle is close by so I don't think that's the case fortunately...

Jaaboo said:

wow, Kermit doesn't know what he's talking about.

I'd say 1S. 2S looks like it will be one off the coast, and 3S is just too much of a gamble.

Click to expand...

Fully agree as I already stated.

Ormur said:

I don't suppose 1SW is worth loosing the second corn for even though you gain two calendar resources and the second gem over 1S?

Click to expand...

1SW is certainly a strong move. What I don't like about it though is you're sacrificing 1 turn to move there but don't really gain anything initially other than the banana tile which you can farm for a 4 tile. It also has only 2 hills for production and the 2nd gems is locked away until IW.
I think the strength of 1S comes with the accelerated production of the first worker (12 turns rather than 15 = 3 turns gained) and the high production/growth capacity to REX, which is supported by the many riverside tiles and gems.

Stochastic said:

Could you maybe wait 1 turn to settle for the warrior to check out the possibility of seafood from the gem hill? I play emperor, so maybe that extra turn is crucial in Deity?

Click to expand...

Not worth it imo. If there's no seafood, then we lost 1 turn. If there's seafood, settle in place? Another turn lost. Maybe long term working the seafood for another city is better but I prefer short term gain on Deity. You start about 35 turns behind on production on Deity since the AI has 2 settlers and a worker (compared to 12~15 on immortal) so imo every turn counts, or you'd better have a real good reason to waste some turns.

goodolarchie said:

1s vs 2s. The problem with 2s in "fishing" for seafood is that no immediate coastal access means you're looking at least having to wait until 2nd city to make the boat to work it. Setting 1s on banana is going to be a guaranteed early development considering you can work both corns and gems straight out the gate (after mining). 4 grass hills means pretty solid production, and all grass tiles is a cottage dream! Looks like great land east (river) and west too. Hard to go awry with this start

Click to expand...

Echoes my thoughts pretty much.

VoiceOfUnreason said:

It looks to me as though, during the mid game, that dry corn is going to be worked by some other city

Click to expand...

Yea, that is a strong possibility. Moreover, satellite cities can probably be annexed around Cahokia to start growing cottages which can later be given to the capital which will undoubtedly have better modifiers. Post-Bureaucracy this will be a monster.

kossin said:

Wow, lots of discussion!
I promise to get back to it tomorrow... tonight I'm spending my time with my better half so no round for today it seems.

2s doesn't appeal to me for the 3 coastal tiles and the fact that the second gems tile can't be worked prior to IW anyway.

Click to expand...

Get back to playing you lazy bum!

Soirana said:

time to regenerate map?

Click to expand...

Given my domination/conquest goal, I think I'll stick it out. If it ends up being too easy... oh well, I'll probably hit something hard soon anyway again

shyuhe said:

I took a peek in WB. You should probably re-roll this start.

Click to expand...

That's almost spoiler-ish =\

JFleme said:

I vote 1SE regardless of the gems. A capital with that much surplus food/green will allow you to make it both - a bureaucracy capital along with a really powerful gp farm. (Surplus 11 food, 5½ specialists worth or alternatively work all 5 green mines and 3 specialists. Strong either way.)

I do agree that capital with gems is obviously strong as can be but you can spot a river next to the gems and since this is what I perceive as the center of the jungle belt - there's very likely to be food, be it bananas, rice or seafood in the coast.

1S is a good spot though, I just hate to see a banana go to waste.

Edit: Did take a peek at the WB as well. This, if any, should be casual.

Edit2: 1SW looks sweet too - it's not like you'll run out of food with all that green anyways.

Click to expand...

An interesting move, 1SE. Settling on the bananas is lost food eventually yes but it gives a much stronger early game imo, as do the gems. The first 100 turns more often than not win or lose games so the long-time loss might not be that bad, especially if you beat an AI to a city by 1~3 turns. Another city is worth the 2/turn lost post-Calendar imo.

Killroyan said:

I would settle 1SW. There is a chance that you will loose sea food but a capital with 2 gems, bananas, irrigated corn, dye, 2 hills and mass cottages is just to good to pass. Second corn can be used for second city. Keep up the good work Kossin. Love these games.

Click to expand...

Thanks.
I've already discussed the 1SW spot, so I'm not gonna spam myself here

Gumbolt said:

Whilst it looks a strong start how can you ever decide to restart without using WB. Surely Kossin deserves one easy deity game?

Click to expand...

We'll see how easy it turns out. To be sure, Domination/Conquest will make it a bit harder I would think than any VC instead.

Squinting at the fog, I think 4S looks like land. So I'd move the warrior SW to make sure it's not a mountain, and you still know that even if there's like 3 fish down south, you still have a possible spot down there to settle.

Also, if my eyes don't deceive me, I think the water at the SW corner is a river mouth, so worst case, you should be able to build a city around there to grab the second gems.

So 1S for a 3-food monster cap looks solid. Share the corn, and share the cottaging lands, and this will be a beast.