I can't believe it's this hard! *rants*

Wow, I must be doing something really wrong here, my gameplay is not improving _at all_

I've read through tons of material to adjust to the new strategies of civ4, and I have now tried about 20 games on noble with bunch of different settings and nations. Usually I get my ass handed back to me before I can even reach medieval (2 times just today) I mean come on, I'm a civ veteran from all the way from part 1, did someone tweak my game or what (no I dont have aggressive settings on )

So here's how I start: 1st city creates warrior, and continues towards stonehenge, or if I wanna skip that trick; barracks or worker, and soon settler when the city has grown a bit. Meanwhile I scouted for strategic sources, locations and good food places, and go on creating next cities & trying to think specials for them if possible&add cottages for money too. I continue expanding and building army&workers. By the time I have 3 cities I am usually badly running out of room to expand, enemy pushing on every side, so I rush to about 5 or at most 6 cities to secure my (rather tiny..) area, and still I get enemy building his cities right next to my border - or even in middle of my cities if he manages to get pass cultural borders in time
So I huff and puff, hope to conquer them shortly, and settle improving my current cities with at least 1x worker per city, and building my army&defenses (minimum 3 archers/longbows every city, more at "danger spots")and trying not to piss off my neighbors meanwhile. No matter what I do I still find myself in the situation where AI's have more cities than me, they are further in technology, they have more culture, apparently they dont lack money despite more drastic expanding - and soon enough they usually attack me with twice as big army - often carrying all troops level 3 or 4, what!? If by some lucky strike I manage to fend of the first wave and even get an edge over the war, my attacker then instantly jumps to vassal some huge nation - and then they attack me with combined forces, nooooo!

Only once did I manage to keep my head above the water for a little while, with a 3 player map and choosing not to start by finding a religion (though that made my money probs even worse, ofcourse). So for a while I got to watch AI fight each other for a change, and then I somehow got the upper hand on the more aggressive one that kept making outrageous demands to me while in war with the other one too. But that game ended cause suddenly my "friend" there on the other side culture flipped my fourth city (right next to my capital!) despite my temples, wonders, monuments and such (I even set several cities creating just culture when noticing borders pushing, didn't help). He crept over most my area of one of my top producer cities too and then attacked me with cannons when I could barely start building trebuchets ._. whaaa and this is only the noble level...

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...And talking about bad odds! (ok this part is pure ranting, I am so frustrated! Bear with me ;D )
Why is it that my level 2 archer (city defender only, but still) dies when I attack a petty barbarian warrior with a stick, and my odds were like 98%? Or when I have odds higher than 75% when attacking enemy outside of his city I get to sacrifice 3 of my troops before fourth one finally gets the kill?? >_<
Also, I really, really hate Justinian, she's such a whiny backstabbing wench! (haha seriously, the picture reminds me of a bitter old woman ;D ). This one game I found her- I mean him right next to my starting spot (again! gahh), so I figured I'll just screw around since my goody hut just gave me a third warrior. I ran around the city noticing that he hadn't started second city yet, so I declared war, pillaged all the improvs and left my 2 warriors standing guard in the thick woods right next to the capital. hahahaaa! I figured Id loose the warriors soon enough, but oh well, that should make a big dent in his progress anyway and those early warriors are almost useless. Meanwhile my third warrior snatched a worker from my other neighbor, which after I instantly made peace with that one again, and then created my second city next to copper spot very close to my capital. I was planning to whip out bunch of axemen to wipe out that smug Justinian right away fun! ..But here's the catch; by the time I barely connected the copper and was about to get my second settler out (21 turns it took I think) I noticed that Justinian had already made 4 new warriors, a settler AND city walls. wait, what? How?? His capital was the same size than mine and no slave whipping had been used afaik. Also, right next to it (that lucky bastard!) was a brilliant spot for a second city, reaching bunch of greens, hills, forests and river, AND corn, copper, stone and marble! Ohhh just gimme a break... I stopped a vein of unfairness popping in my head, hit enter to end the turn, and next happens funny: from the clear sky drops not one, but 2 axemen to his city (which only had those warriors and and settler a moment ago, may I add!) that wiped out my both warriors, hence efficiently destroying all my plans. AAAGH!
...Now this is a rare time when a game made me wanna get drunk sigh...

One of the first things you should get is a granary, not a barrack lol.

You should almost always start with a worker first, and improve the resources tiles in capital.

If you have trouble expanding and with culture pressure, try playing with zara. creative helps with the culture and to block off land, org helps you deal with economics of early expansion.

hmh not sure about that, matter of preference? Pottery is anyway usually 2 searches away so not like I can start with it. In the beginning used to go for granary&city growth first, but switched my tactic cause my army was so badly lacking in strength and those small cities grow so fast to the limit of my happiness anyway. I do place the granary pretty soon though if the city looks like its gonna grow much more.

Woah you start with warrior or Stonehenge??

Worker or warrior is probably best starting build. Techwise probably a farming or resource tech like agriculture or AH. In a heavy forest start maybe Mining/BW. If the Ai has lots of warriors I am guessing you are playing noble level.

Worker stealing can be rewarding but you still need to expand using food cities and perhaps a city near a military resource like copper early on. Be wary of neighbours you start near. If you start near a military freak like Nappy, Ragnar or a imperialist Ai like Justin you need to be sure to hook up copper or get them to pleased early on. Most will suicide their stack against 3-4 axemen.

I would post a save around 1000bc for people to look at and critique. usual faults are not building enough workers, concentrating too much on wonders or not expanding enough. 6-7+ cities by 1ad is quite acceptable.

Post a save if you want more useful feedback.

here's how I start: 1st city creates warrior, and continues towards stonehenge, or if I wanna skip that trick; barracks or worker

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Build a worker first.

Don't mess with Stonehenge, unless your leader happens to be Industrious or you get stone hooked up early. You don't really need Stonehenge. If you don't know how to get border-pops, play a creative leader instead.

One gets speed in the Civ4 opening by chopping trees, so you'll want bronzeworking very soon in almost any game. Then chop like crazy to expand to 3-4 cities very fast.

my army&defenses (minimum 3 archers/longbows every city, more at "danger spots")

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This is way overbuilding. One archer per city for defense is fine; beyond that you want to focus on getting offensive units: axemen, some chariots to counter enemy axes, and some spearmen to counter enemy chariots.

I build a Worker first, almost always. (Exception: delicious seafood + a civ with Fishing.)

Once you start working improved tiles, you will do everything else faster: research, growth, and building stuff.

After I build a Worker, I often build two Warriors, then part of a Barracks (until the city is big enough to build a Settler, which is usually size 4). After the Settler, I finish the Barracks, and start building units to rush a neighbor.

Works pretty well up to Monarch so far.

I'd suggest posting several saves from a single game...a 4000BC, ~2000BC, 1AD and 1000AD should do. It's hard to say what the specific problems with your game are from your description, but it probably is a couple of small things that combine to create a problem. When I played at the noble level, I frequently went for an early religious opening, which I now pursue exactly 0% of the time. I also overvalued buildings as opposed to units, undervalued terrain improvements and neglected fogbusting/spawnbusting. All of these are common mistakes at the level you're playing. But knowing which of them (or whatever others) may be causing your difficulty is far easier with an example of a game you are playing.

1. Stonehenge is a crutch. Consider when industrial or chrismatic.

2. An early choking victim is a bad rush victim, because he's already/still in war mode.

3. AI gets insane cheap upgrades. Axes might come from iron as well.

4. Early research the food techs and Bronze working

5. Every city needs food!

6. Chop trees especially next to rivers, except some plains forest for health.

6. Don't neglect the economy techs: pottery, writing, sailing, alphabet, currency.

7. Trade heavily.

8. Know the leaders. Obey diplo. (Don't piss off all your neighbors by stealing their worker, restrict yourself to some.)

9. Great People are very important. Set up a GP farm, e. g. library + Glib + National Epic works grand. First GS goes to Capital as academy. The rest bulb or settle.

10. Specialize cities. GP farm needs lot of food. Military (Heroic Epic) needs production and almost all your troups should be produce there.

As has been said, worker first is almost always the best possible start. (Although I have to ask, considering Suryavarman's starting techs, is he one of those exceptions in which warrior first, maybe partly built, is better? I'm referring mostly to cow only starts. ) The main exception to worker first is when you're near the coast, you have sea food resources and you have fishing, in which case it can be a good thing to go workboat first.

Also... how long does it take for you to settle those cities? Please note that most often, I get to at least 6 cities by 1000 BCE (this assumes I have room + I'm playing epic/marathon; might not always be possible, and might not be possible at normal speed or quick), and I've read around here that 10 cities by 1CE is a good goal to aim for.

And... don't base your tech progress on how real history went. I very often get into the medieval era before or around 500 BCE, and I'd assume that at greater difficulty levels, one could get to this era even earlier, thanks to tech trading with faster teching AIs. If you reach the medieval area around 600-700 CE, you're either having a bad map, or you're doing one or more things wrongly.

Well from what I can read, it seems like you are underexpanding A LOT. If you rely on a shrined religion for commerce you're in trouble.

I'd say try to build settlers instead of stonehenge your next game just for the sake of it. Take the hammer value of stonehenge and put it into settlers.

Also, you seem to be delaying important worker techs for once again religious stuff. That means you're not improving resource tiles or for that matter tiles at all.

Although like someone said, you need to post a save

Oh may I add the stonehenge approach has really been only _one_ variation of tactics? (I love the fast border grow, lol) But every time I get beat up I try to change it. I have gone with all what you have suggested previously. Hence my frustration I usually random my leader to try out different traits as well.

Gumbolt you might want to read my post more carefully that Justinian-war game was just a play around anyway, just wanted to see what happens with such crazy moves cause was about to restart the map anyway. Was gobsmacked with the results, though.
I'll see if I can find a good save, the problem on posting one was that I've tried of so many things so didnt know which one I'd like to get critiqued on.

Wreck I cant deal with the barbarians with less defenders :/ Though I guess that is more of a problem with the bigger maps.. and yes I use chop rush too. I have also often tried with starting first thing a warrior/barracks, but as soon as city grows first time switched to building a worker, let it finish fast and go back to the previous project.

I guess I could next try making less archers and more axes, and go with a worker first, hmh...

..wow, lot of answers faster that I can read&reply, I appreciate your impact guys

I've read through tons of material to adjust to the new strategies of civ4

So here's how I start: 1st city creates warrior, and continues towards stonehenge, or if I wanna skip that trick; barracks or worker, and soon settler when the city has grown a bit.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but there shouldn't be any material that tells you to do that. Where are these articles so they can be changed?

Onysa said:

Oh may I add the stonehenge approach has really been only _one_ variation of tactics? (I love the fast border grow, lol) But every time I get beat up I try to change it. I have gone with all what you have suggested previously. Hence my frustration I usually random my leader to try out different traits as well.

Gumbolt you might want to read my post more carefully that Justinian-war game was just a play around anyway, just wanted to see what happens with such crazy moves cause was about to restart the map anyway. Was gobsmacked with the results, though.
I'll see if I can find a good save, the problem on posting one was that I've tried of so many things so didnt know which one I'd like to get critiqued on.

Wreck I cant deal with the barbarians with less defenders :/ Though I guess that is more of a problem with the bigger maps.. and yes I use chop rush too. I have also often tried with starting first thing a warrior/barracks, but as soon as city grows first time switched to building a worker, let it finish fast and go back to the previous project.

I guess I could next try making less archers and more axes, and go with a worker first, hmh...

Click to expand...

As stated many times here already, worker first.....worker FIRST. Tech worker techs for resources in cap if you don't have them already or mining/BW. Archery is usually a waste of beakers except maybe at much higher levels - definitely not noble. BW and AH should hopefully give you copper or horses for either early barb defense or early rush of a nearby civ. If not, then IW can be prioritized. (If in the very rare case you get none of these resources in a reasonable scouted area, well I'd start a new game)

Oh...I wouldn't worry about finding old saves. Just start a new game. Post the start save and then post saves at intervals...say every 50 to 100 turns...with your notes, and folks will critique it. Some may play along to show you how then did things.

CivilizedTiger I usually play marathon or epic, I did not like the normal speed. I havent noted exact dates of my growth, but when comparing the replay scenarios after retiring I usually have grown the same speed than AI's with first 4-5 cities. Sometimes slightly faster even, donno is that good or bad.. Bad I guess cause that means less worker improving very early on?

Religion start has been one that's strongly adviced in several guides I've read, but as I said I havent always started with it. Though I do know I had earlier a mistake of trying always to make my capital as the GP farm. I think I know now its better to give it more commerce, even if the food possibilities there look so tempting..

I also previously made the stupid mistakes of placing some cities the way that almost no farms could be made early - or not even with irrigation later on but I learnt from my mistakes again, lol.

Mariograymist yeah my thoughts a bit too.. I've collected lot of info, but quite possibly I keep combining them upside down, and try wrong tactics with wrong maps & leader traits & neighbors..

Agramon yeah um that stealing workers early on is NOT my habit, again that was a silly play not intended as a real tactic of any sorts Sorry for not making that clear enough!

Whatever guide told you that religion/SH was a good opening, burn it for warmth. It can be workable for a few leaders, like Ramses, but the opportunity cost of religion/stonehenge is simply too great to make it a default strategy.

Onysa said:

Religion start has been one that's strongly adviced in several guides I've read, but as I said I havent always started with it.

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Huh? What kind of guides have you been reading? Going for early religion is very inadvisable and one of the biggest rookie mistakes...

I would also like to make sure you aren't taking our dogging on the religious opening personally. It's a mistake many (if not most) new players make when moving to Civ IV from earlier versions. I know I made it for years, right up to the point where I started coming here, and never won a game over the Prince level. I now own monarch and can beat Emperor as often as not, just a few months later. (though ditching the religious opening was only a small step towards that)

Onysa said:

CivilizedTiger I usually play marathon or epic, I did not like the normal speed. I havent noted exact dates of my growth, but when comparing the replay scenarios after retiring I usually have grown the same speed than AI's with first 4-5 cities. Sometimes slightly faster even, donno is that good or bad.. Bad I guess cause that means less worker improving very early on?

Religion start has been one that's strongly adviced in several guides I've read, but as I said I havent always started with it. Though I do know I had earlier a mistake of trying always to make my capital as the GP farm. I think I know now its better to give it more commerce, even if the food possibilities there look so tempting..

I also previously made the stupid mistakes of placing some cities the way that almost no farms could be made early - or not even with irrigation later on but I learnt from my mistakes again, lol.

Mariograymist yeah my thoughts a bit too.. I've collected lot of info, but quite possibly I keep combining them upside down, and try wrong tactics with wrong maps & leader traits & neighbors..

Agramon yeah um that stealing workers early on is NOT my habit, again that was a silly play not intended as a real tactic of any sorts Sorry for not making that clear enough!

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Adding to my post above and following your comments, this is why a shadow game is so effective. It will allow you to get focused advice from the good folks here. Even one round of this should improve your basic game dramatically - and the basics are what seem to be missing here. I wouldn't get too caught up on the advanced stuff quite yet especially on Noble. Trust me...noble becomes VERY easy after you learn the basics. It wasn't so long ago when I got my ass handed to me on noble and now it's cake. The challenge does ramp up considerbly at higher levels though - you have that to look forward to.