IO3 - All of Rome's Cities are Mighty!

Hello, and welcome to my newest SG. Surprisingly, although the host, I won't be playing the first turns, but I am going to post the initial turn... because I can. Without further ado, I present to you... Rome!

Emperor Caligula: My men are long traveled, my fine Military Advisor. Have we yet reached our destination? I'd look myself, but I do not wish to taint my eyes with anything less than the perfect location.

General Tacticus: Yes, your imperial majesty. Look out, and gaze on the fine land that we will call Rome.



Caligula:Yes, you are right, my General. This is good land. However... send Cato here. I have a question for him. I think you know what I wish to ask, and I cannot speak to such... common stock as him. He does not even wear the robe of a senator! I wish you to speak to him.

Tacticus: Yes, sir. CATO!!

Cato: I am here, Centurion. Speak your will.

Tacticus: You promised us seven hills on which to place our city, but I see only four that are close to the city!

Cato: Yes, sir, I understand.

Tacticus: You ARE the Domestic Advisor to the emperor, are you not?

Cato: Yes, sir.

Tacticus: Is there any way to rectify this situation?

Cato: No, sir. Even so great a civilization as Rome cannot create hills with no knowledge of how to shift so much stone. You must remember, sir, that it is 4000 BC. No one knows how to create hills yet.

Tacticus: 4000 what now?

Cato: Never mind. Anyways, four hills is certainly enough for the grandest of cities. Rest assured, Rome will not fall with only four hills. Of course, we will need the forests. They give us Health points that allow our city to grow larger than normal. And the elephants nearby will give us Happiness points.

Tacticus: Health points? Happiness points? Have you gone mad, Cato?

Cato: Just ignore that part.

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We have one variant rule here: no cottages allowed in our empire. Rome's cities are too mighty even to be called towns!

Well, now to give the save out. ForGreatJustice, you're up!

Roster:

ForGreatJustice (up)
IdiotsOpposite (me!)
SilentConfusion (he actually does speak)
Brian Shanahan (can't think of anything here)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/mimzw2ty0mh/Roman Start B.CivBeyondSwordSave

Caligula is our first Roman Emperor!?!?

Got it, probably won't play tonight, we'll see though. And for the lurker's gallery, I apologize beforehand if there are those of you that would be offended by our revisionist history of the Rise and Hopefully Not Fall of the Roman Empire.

Well, who else can so perfectly represent the ideals of Barbarism, Despotism, and Paganism?

Our Emperors will grow more enlightened as time passes...

And FWI, Cato is our resident fourth-wall breaker...

Our underappreciated man behind the curtain, Cato:



Tacitus thus spoke to Cato "FOOL! You promised us seven, then said we must make do with four hills. Look around! I see THREE, repeat THHHRRREEEEEE hills around"

"Okay Tacitus, I was wrong again, it's three hills, not four, so sue me. Sheesh! But trust me, it's great, we can farm more! Oh wait... we can't do that for at least... umm... lemme calculate... 280 more years from today... hmmm... "



Cato, a great man, had to deal with this:



And Caligula's lust for decadence




Thus the Romans, under Caligula's decadence and filth yet guided by the steady hand of Cato, Rome began a 1000 year journey that would lead to discoveries in how to sow seeds into the earth, and to herd livestock that would go baaahhh baaaahhh. Warriors and a scout courtesy of a barbarian village willing to join our noble race scouted out the lands and found not one single soul for nearly 25 turns!

Brief Summary (for those that realize I can't write sensationally for my life!)

T1 (4000BC) - Settled in place, start researching Agri, build 15t worker
T8 (3720BC) - Agri in, research AH. Buddhism FDL (religious zealot with myst?). No contacts yet.
T9 (3640BC) - 38 gold from hut.
T12 (3520BC) - Lions are fuzzy. Confirmed we have barbs in this game
T15 (3400BC) - Farm corn, make warrior. Pop hut for a scout.
T18 (3280BC) - AH already in, set for BW. Meet Zara and the Ethiopians, (took 18 turns for contact, good chance he's pretty far away)
T24 (3040BC) - Hindiusm born FDL (so, 16 turns later hindus arrive, hmmm... how much does it take for AI to research Poly on noble/normal?
T25 (3000BC) - Cows and corn both running now, sent worker to mine grass hill with 4 turns left on BW, making a warrior.

Our future empire:






And the save:

You know, that's a good question, the Polytheism thing.

I can only assume that Buddhism was given to these strangers by a somehow very cultured tribal village.

Now, polytheism costs 100 beakers...

So, someone with no commerce, but who has mysticism, can discover Polytheism in 12 turns. Someone with no commerce or mysticism can discover it in 17 turns.

Also, could you post the save, and perhaps a second city spot? If you don't, I'll pick the best spot I can find near the horses.

Sorry for a second post, I'm tired of editing the previous one. Surprised that I almost went my entire turnset without making a contact, I was getting worried Imagine isolation with our Praets just beating on each other for fun

I didn't explore the north yet (warrior on the way to bust the last bit of fog) because after 2nd border pop I could see a pretty even northern coast line.

I am almost always against building a worker/settler in the beginning of games before the cap reaches pop 3, unless the circumstances can allow for it. So I'm building a warrior now, but if the next player wishes they can switch once Rome goes to 3 in 1 turn.

So BW in 5, which is nearly perfect. 4t for the mine on 4 left for BW next turn, lose only 1t in worker R&R due to moving on to a forest for settler chop.

Haven't thought of 2nd city yet, nor post BW teching, too tired now

@IO- save should be posted at the very end of my play report. And yeah, sorry too tired to even think of a dotmap

Well, hopefully I can't screw it up too bad...

I have the save and am playing it now. I'll try to deliver the most epic 15 turns you've ever seen!

I think you should hold off placing a settler (if you have one built in 15t) until everyone has seen this and discuss placing. Since you already have it, if you can, please make a dot map. Overall, the map does not really offer great SE. Only two rivers and they are pretty far apart and overall few food sources, with only the rice near the gems and the corn NE of Rome being near a river. Civil service anyone?

It's going to look like Rome is going to be a hybrid production/SE city. Long outlook, farm all but one of the jumbos (that is for the camp) for 2F 2H for stable pop, use the corn and sheep to develop surplus for specialists, no need to have people work mines. I only sent the worker to the hill because I thought having +1H more would benefit us sooner. Our happy cap is only 5 (no garrison, no jumbos), didn't want to rush our growth too much.

Hmm... do you mind if I move the settler (with a warrior escort) to the spot where I'm thinking of placing him (1N of the Horses SW of Rome)?

Also, there really are four hills... only one is covered by a forest.

Again I recommend holding off for input from Silent and Brian. At least for courtesy's sake.I don't know about you but it's 1240am right now for me. Brian is in Ireland so it's either 440 or 540am there. Silent no clue, but could be asleep as well. I think our 2nd city placement will be crucial and I believe decisions like those should have more than 50% of the group's opinion. Maybe in the meanwhile you could post a few dotmap screenies? You were practicing that in another thread weren't you

That's my last post for the night. Patience young padawan

Well, I'll show my turns up to 35 anyways. I still suck at dotmaps, so that may not be a good idea.

You guys can help me decide on turns 35-40, in deciding our second city. Which shall be named Caligulum!

-----------------------STORY TIME-----------------------------------

Rome, 2880 BC: Tacticus, Caligula with his favorite concubine, and Cato are around a table with various maps on it.

Tacticus: Sir, I have a report for you.

Caligula: I've told you not to call me that. It's Emperor to you.

Concubine: And to me, Emperor?

Caligula: I've told you, it's Master! If you weren't so great in bed, you'd be assassinated for your impertinence... I swear, being a despot shouldn't be this hard!

Tacticus: Emperor... the report?

Caligula: Oh, yes. I suppose I can hear it.

Sir, take a look at this map. A scout sent it in recently...



Caligula: So we found the Ethiopian's lands. What of it?

Tacticus: Emperor, if you notice. His lands are bigger than ours. This is not good.

Caligula: Yes, but is not Rome more cultured and advanced than these barbarians? They aren't even Roman!

Tacticus: Well, emperor, I think Cato can explain better. Cato?

Cato: Sir, it's very simple. His culture level is bigger than ours due to him having over 100 culture, while we merely have somewhere between 10 and 100 culture. So, the fact that Zara Yakob's land is bigger than ours means he's more cultured than us.

Caligula: I got your last sentence, but this talk of culture points is confusing me. Are you sure you aren't mad?

Cato: Quite sure, but I can't explain now.

(Cut to Caligula in his throne room, 2840 BC. Somehow, all of the advisors are exactly the same age, despite living for over 1,250 years. They enter running, out of breath.)

Tacticus: Sir, I have good news! Our men have discovered how to work bronze!

Cato: Sir, I have excellent news! Our men have learned the secrets of bronze working!

Caligula: Calm, men, calm. What proof have you of this?

Cato: This...



Caligula: So, what does this mean? Tacticus, you go first.

Tacticus: Well, on the military side, we discover the resource of copper. If we can find some of the resource, we can use the resulting bronze to build powerful axes for our troops.

Cato: But that is only the beginning! Sir, the axes need not only be used on our troops. We can give them to the workers as well, to aid in the cutting of trees. Construction would go up much faster that way. In addition, we can now use the Slavery civic.

Caligula: Basic Latin, Cato! What do you mean by "Slavery civic"?

Cato: Well, by sacrificing the lives of some citizens, we can greatly increase the rate of construction. It's a technique called "whipping".

Caligula: Are you telling me that I can build almost any building at lightning speed by taking the lives of a few worthless citizens? There must be a catch.

Cato: Well, the citizens will soon become unhappy and refuse to work.

Caligula: I knew it! Anyway, enforce this "slavery" immediately. The Romans will soon know who is in charge...

(cut to 2680 BC. Caligula sits in his throne room listening to Cato's report)

Cato: There is one other thing, master. We discovered, near an injured scout of the Ethiopian's, a primitive village. Despite their being so backward, they were actually able to teach us something useful:



Caligula: Mysticism? How is this useful?

Cato: Tell me, emperor, have you ever thought of being a god?

Caligula: A "god"? What is that, some sort of new title?

Cato: Of sorts. A god is a supposedly all-powerful being who can even turn the tides of nature to his will. These tribesmen prayed to their god, and built great monuments and even attempted a great stone circle to appease him. Such backwards people, but I think we can use this idea for ourselves. Think of how great a stone henge would be to inspire the people! And unlike the tribesmen, we have the architecture to do so. Well, we will once we discover Construction.

Caligula: I told you to stop that!

Cato: Sorry, emperor.

(Cut to 40 years later. Tacticus runs in, and Cato is sitting down)

Tacticus: Sir, our men brought in this news!



Tacticus: Remember when I was telling you about Bronze Working?

Caligula: What, 240 years ago? Yes, of course I remember. What about it?

Tacticus: Well, with this, we can go a bit farther. We can create bronze spears and strike down all of the horsemen in our path!

Caligula: With what? We still haven't found any copper, you imbecile!

Tacticus: We can do the same with iron...

Caligula: Have you been speaking to Cato lately?

Cato: Oh, sir, with the idea of hunting...

Caligula: Shut up, Cato! Tacticus, when did you start referencing fantasies?

Cato: But sir, the elephants can be harvested...

Caligula: I said shut up! Answer me, Tacticus!

Tacticus: Well, we actually already know about iron...

Cato: Sir, we have vast economic opportunities here...

Caligula: SHUT UP! Both of you! Now look, I'm angry again! Concubines! I need to relax!

Cato: Well, Tacticus, there's no speaking with him now... and we could harvest the ivory from all of those elephants.

Tacticus: Yes, and we actually know about iron, just not how to work it. But when the emperor's in that mood...

Cato: Yes... well, I'm off to bed. Good night.

Tacticus: Good night.

If you start with Mysticism. Meditation takes only 8 turns in Noble/Normal so long as your first city worker works a tile with 1 commerce. So if a civ with Myst works a riverside tile that would explain the 8 turns it took. Polytheism takes 11 turns (or 10 with a 1 commerce first tile) for a civ with Myst. Researching Myst takes 7 (or 6) turns. So the civ that got Poly didn't go straight for it and researched another tech first.

Yes please post a dot map with possible locations. I assume we will settle to the west. I will load the save and look at it more clearly.

As for me it's 10PM in California, and I won't be asleep for a while.

Here's my thoughts on second city placement:
Site D is a nice grassy site with food and horses. If we want to hook up horses ASAP for a chariot or HA attack on ZY, then we should settle here. If we want to take the most land from him we could try to settle A which would force him to settle SW of the stone probably unless he settles in the opposite direction. If we made it to site A before he did, we would almost assuredly get spots B, C, and D. We would therefore have a lot of land to leverage early and we might keep him from having horses.

I think we should be flexible in our settling plans because it could all change with IW.

I'd recommend teching IW>Wheel to get iron hooked up ASAP.

I just saw your suggestion, IO, of 1N of the horse. I have to admit that's far better than my spot D. Not only does it have more food with corn/sheep, but it also has more land, meaning more chance to have iron. Insert your spot 1N of the close horse instead of my spot D in the above scenario. If we don't need the horses early, I'd suggest trying to settle spot A unless we see his settler heading that way.

I'd say A unless we think we'd miss it, otherwise 1N of horse. When will our settler be done? Will it finish before IW if we tech IW right away? Because if so that will change things.

Also, if you have the BUG mod, you can press ALT+X, to go into strategy mode and then you can left click to put a BFC marker on the land, and right click to remove it. I find you have to hold it down for a second for it to register. And just hit ALT+X again to exit that mode. That way you don't have to use paint or PShop or something. You can also choose what color BFC you put down to distinguish between different spots.

It actually finishes on turn 35... still in my turnset. So, way before IW.

And I know about the BUG thing, don't worry.

So... I can head for spot A immediately, if that is what you desire...

What does everyone else think?

Crap I can't see the dot maps from work. I guess what depends most now for our 2nd city will be either we want to chariot rush Zara or peaceful REX out to Zara. I always forget which UU Zara has, confusing it with Mansa's UU, is it the musketman replacement or the spear replacement? Kinda need to see more Mansa's lands, would hate to send chariots against long pointy metal. Distance for sustained axe rush a bit too far. From what I can see from just the Tech screenie looks like he has tundra next to him

Nice we got a free myst. I hate playing with huts, but since we are playing with them, I can't complain about a freebie.

We might need to send out a few more warriors for fogbusting for out west. Remember no barb can spawn in the 5x5 area around a nonbarb unit/city or in nofog land.

I noticed you were researching (or had researched) masonry. How do people feel about the GW? I figured IO you would have reported it if it were built. The GW is cheap to build, needing only a chop or two to speed it up to within 5t building, and saves us some turns building warriors. A GSpy 20 some odd turns after GW is built can be settled to help research. Or have it make an early SY which can help with future esp . Since IO hasn't reported us any new contacts after 35T, I'm thinking we got a semi-isolationist start with just our one AI Zara to keep us company

I don't like the idea of stonehenge. Yes free monument, that's good. Bad free priest to dilute our GP pool. If we are alone, we will need GS to pop like crazy to help us catch up. I'm really convinced now that we will be using Rome as a semi SE city for the immediate term.

I agree with silent, IW -> Wheel then I suggest writing. We need a library in Rome and scientists working there

Settling 1N of the horse is good. Sheep, corn, horses, and 3 hills (let's not make this a theme) in its BFC. Can be online very quick. City A on silent's is also good. Sheep, horse, 2 hills, 4 river plains, and future calendar resources. Again, depends on what is our goal. I favor attempting to REX out to Zara and grab A. If that fails, we can grab 1N of the close by horses.

Of course by the time IW comes in we will have hopefully another settler ready to go after our iron.

ForGreatJustice said:

I always forget which UU Zara has, confusing it with Mansa's UU, is it the musketman replacement or the spear replacement? Kinda need to see more Mansa's lands, would hate to send chariots against long pointy metal.

Click to expand...

You probably already looked it up by now, but ZY's UU is the Oromo Warrior, the mustketman with drill promotions.

His UU should come a bit too late for him in this game if all goes well.

I agree very much with going Writing after IW>Wheel. I am thinking we might head for the GL after that, for the specialists and science boost (since we seem to be semi-isolated). But when we get to Construction our Praets and War Eles should be able to handle ZY easily especially if we manage to block him into a corner.

I think we need to focus on trying to get ZY gone asap, so we can focus on teching. For this we'll want some cities capable of producing enough Praets and 'Phants and workers building improvements and roads. If we can run some specialists with a few libraries while this is going on we won't hinder our teching.

Soo...

do I go for Masonry before IW Wheel and Writing? Because that's what it sounds like I'm doing.

I looked at the save, did my own dot map and came up with something very similar to Silent (the only difference was I put a dot map in the desert just to see the overlap) so my vote would be for that plan (if Zara plays nice).

I also agree on the tech path, with a relatively near Zara Iron (and Praet rush) is important, and then we have to get the libraries up ASAP, and then we might be looking at CoL and Curr for the next techs (large empire no cottages remember).

The time difference will be a bit sucky, trying to coordinate with me. And also I'm still sober (my local is not open yet) so my ideas aren't totally stupid yet.

IdiotsOpposite said:

Soo...

do I go for Masonry before IW Wheel and Writing? Because that's what it sounds like I'm doing.

Click to expand...

If you want to rush Zara skip masonry, otherwise we might look at construction before attacking. Anytime I've left war until mid classical the siege was almost neccessary, more so with Zara being creative, cultural defence and walls chew up armies especially when the AI love archers.