Culture boost building

In Civ4 we have the "culture build", where it is allowed to build a thin amount of culture per turn if we do not produce anything else.

First, I think that this culture boost per turn is not high enough. I never use it in Civ4. I prefer to build a cultural building that will give me 1 (obelisk), 2 (library or monasteries when i have the luck to have a religion) culture points per turn, and anyway the ability to build culture comes too late.

So:

* make the culture build more powerfull
* make it available since the start, or not far from it.

Second, why not dedicate a building for culture exclusively, like not giving anymore a culture per turn boost, but an overall (rough) culture boost, like "200 culture points".

I've thought about this idea when projecting me into Civ5, where mountains will be harder to conquer, whereas mountains in Civ4 could be capital in term of line of sight on borders. Having a substancial culture boost from a building could make "border wars" more interesting.

More, when in Civ5 there will be an amount of city states surrounding your cities, the more when keeping them alive will give you more benefits than conquering them, i believe that frontiers will be of high concern, bigger yet than in civ4.

So giving the player more concrete means to enlarge his culture may be essential.

The culture build simply converts your hammers into culture. If you have 50 hammers/turn, you will generate 50 culture per turn with the culture build.

I think it's fine. I mean, it's not meant to be too powerful, it's just meant to add to what culture you already can produce.

Jarlaxe Baenre said:

The culture build simply converts your hammers into culture. If you have 50 hammers/turn, you will generate 50 culture per turn with the culture build.

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But you wouldn't reach 50 hammers in early eras, if you ever reach it.

And you're not meant to get 50 culture per turn easily early in the game. It's meant to be reasonably difficult to build up your culture, and you shouldn't really be able to do it without the need for cultural buildings.

The thing is, culture is like inflation. In the beginning of the game you don't spend lots of money but you don't get lots of money either. Later in the game a reasonable amount of gold per turn is +40 while early in the game it's +5. Numbers inflate as you develop. That's also how it is realistically.

So early in the game, you won't get 50 hammers/turn, but you also won't need them, because early buildings don't require lots of hammers. Same with culture. Early in the game you can't get to 50 culture/turn but you also won't need it, because if you're looking for culture pops then early in the game culture pops require much less culture, 10 for the first and 100 for the second. If you get 50 culture/turn then you would get two culture pops in two turns, so obviously 50 is too high a number for that.

And if you're looking for an edge in a border war, 50 culture/turn would be incredibly unbalanced early in the game because civs around you are more likely to be pumping 5/turn then 50. That's why Drama comes so late, because later on the game gives you more room to work with. The Drama tech not only gives you the ability to build culture but also adds the culture slider, allowing you to literally invest money into spreading culture.

Gingi said:

And if you're looking for an edge in a border war, 50 culture/turn would be incredibly unbalanced early in the game because civs around you are more likely to be pumping 5/turn then 50. That's why Drama comes so late, because later on the game gives you more room to work with. The Drama tech not only gives you the ability to build culture but also adds the culture slider, allowing you to literally invest money into spreading culture.

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Well Drama only allows you to spend your current gold/production output into culture at a certain time. That wouldn't be much early, much more later, so Drama coming so late does not depend on it giving too much culture early.

So I see nothing preventing it to be available from the start (or not far from start), it would just give more options to someone looking for an edge, advantaging on the culture and border parts, disavantaging on the production or gold/science part.

On a side note, I will notice that I feel it really too much disabling for research to have to give 10% out of overall commerce to have only 10% more cultural output overall, when what is interesting may be only one tiny part of your land. (e.g. one only moutain tile!)

Naokaukodem said:

Well Drama only allows you to spend your current gold/production output into culture at a certain time. That wouldn't be much early, much more later, so Drama coming so late does not depend on it giving too much culture early.

So I see nothing preventing it to be available from the start (or not far from start), it would just give more options to someone looking for an edge, advantaging on the culture and border parts, disavantaging on the production or gold/science part.

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Early on if you're looking for mass culture try building Stonehenge or the Oracle. Investing hammers into culture is going to leave your city undeveloped. Plus, weren't you arguing that building Culture isn't even effective?

Naokaukodem said:

On a side note, I will notice that I feel it really too much disabling for research to have to give 10% out of overall commerce to have only 10% more cultural output overall, when what is interesting may be only one tiny part of your land. (e.g. one only moutain tile!)

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The culture slider is meant either as a tactic (hey, aren't you complaining about the game not giving you enough options?) or if you have a major cultural front war with a neighbor. If you're fighting over a mountain tile (which in effect is really stupid, but I'm just messing, I know what you mean ) then you'd want to build a library or a theater. The culture slider gives you an incredible edge if you're fighting a large-scale culture battle or even multiple ones.

Gingi said:

Early on if you're looking for mass culture try building Stonehenge or the Oracle.

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That sounds perfect in theory. In practice, if you don't build them in your capital, you have few chance to get them in a decent level of difficulty or in multiplayer.

Investing hammers into culture is going to leave your city undeveloped.

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Yes, but if you do not have this counter part, you would have no reason not to do it. So maybe you would switch your production to culture for some turns, and turn it back later, or, for a better practicity, allowing to allocate some hammers per turn into culture.

Plus, weren't you arguing that building Culture isn't even effective?

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I didn't see it effective as i never use it because it comes too late. But indeed, if this is really a 1:1 conversion from production to culture, it may be interesting as it. But I would not object to be more powerfull.

The culture slider is meant either as a tactic (hey, aren't you complaining about the game not giving you enough options?) or if you have a major cultural front war with a neighbor. If you're fighting over a mountain tile (which in effect is really stupid, but I'm just messing, I know what you mean ) then you'd want to build a library or a theater. The culture slider gives you an incredible edge if you're fighting a large-scale culture battle or even multiple ones.

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Yes and what about small scale battle cultures, like a single mountain? And yes it can be usefull as mountains can give a good line of sight, even over hills and forests. Happened to me several times in multiplayer.

In Civ4 there's no mean to do this. That's why, unless you allow for a city-by-city slider adjustment, I proposed that idea.

Naokaukodem said:

That sounds perfect in theory. In practice, if you don't build them in your capital, you have few chance to get them in a decent level of difficulty or in multiplayer.

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That is a good point. However your capital has no actual bonus over subsequent cities in hammers. The only bonus your capital has over other cities in the early game (I'm not talking Bureaucracy and stuff like that) is the Palace, which if I remember correctly gives you 2 culture and a little gold. If you specialize your second or third city well (pick out the tiles that provide the most hammers) then there is no reason why you shouldn't get the wonder. Plus if your productivity is THAT low then building culture won't help you. I mean, building culture converts half of your hammers to culture. So even if you're making 3 hammers/turn you'll only get 1 culture/turn. Building culture is meant to be a last resort, and it's meant to be used AFTER GETTING THE DRAMA TECH.

Yes, but if you do not have this counter part, you would have no reason not to do it. So maybe you would switch your production to culture for some turns, and turn it back later, or, for a better practicity, allowing to allocate some hammers per turn into culture.

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You're mixing up 2 different mechanisms. Hammers aren't meant to be invested in culture. That's like saying "Why doesn't Firaxis let me trade in Monty's espionage points to finish building the Hanging Gardens?" I mean, it just doesn't work that way. The "Building Culture" option allows you to invest a bit of your hammers into culture, but it's not meant to be flexible or at any time in the early game an effective way of taking over tiles. That's why it's not available in the early game.

I didn't see it effective as i never use it because it comes too late. But indeed, if this is really a 1:1 conversion from production to culture, it may be interesting as it. But I would not object to be more powerfull.

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It doesn't come too late at all. If you plan ahead you can easily grab Drama in the BC era.

Yes and what about small scale battle cultures, like a single mountain? And yes it can be usefull as mountains can give a good line of sight, even over hills and forests. Happened to me several times in multiplayer.

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Hey, I never knew that about mountains. So that's pretty cool. If you want to specialize your cities you have to build certain buildings (like theaters, obelisks, wonders (Great Lighthouse, Stonehenge, the Pyramids, the Oracle, the Parthenon, the Temple of Artemis, and even more)), not adjust the slider.

Naokaukodem said:

In Civ4 there's no mean to do this. That's why, unless you allow for a city-by-city slider adjustment, I proposed that idea.

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Allowing for a city-by-city investment slider would defeat the purpose. When I just started playing Civ I thought that way too, but that wouldn't be very practical. The whole point of the investment sliders is to decide what your empire as a whole is investing in. Like I said, if you want to specialize a specific city, build culturally-rewarding buildings.

EDIT: I was wrong. Music allows you to "build culture", not Drama. But Drama still gives you the culture slider.

Gingi said:

That is a good point. However your capital has no actual bonus over subsequent cities in hammers. The only bonus your capital has over other cities in the early game (I'm not talking Bureaucracy and stuff like that) is the Palace, which if I remember correctly gives you 2 culture and a little gold. If you specialize your second or third city well (pick out the tiles that provide the most hammers) then there is no reason why you shouldn't get the wonder. Plus if your productivity is THAT low then building culture won't help you. I mean, building culture converts half of your hammers to culture. So even if you're making 3 hammers/turn you'll only get 1 culture/turn. Building culture is meant to be a last resort, and it's meant to be used AFTER GETTING THE DRAMA TECH.

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It has the advantage of being your first city, knowing that in the time you build your first settler you have the time to build Stonehenge before it get to another civ. Still too complicated?

You're mixing up 2 different mechanisms. Hammers aren't meant to be invested in culture. That's like saying "Why doesn't Firaxis let me trade in Monty's espionage points to finish building the Hanging Gardens?" I mean, it just doesn't work that way. The "Building Culture" option allows you to invest a bit of your hammers into culture, but it's not meant to be flexible or at any time in the early game an effective way of taking over tiles. That's why it's not available in the early game.

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Huh, lol?

It doesn't come too late at all. If you plan ahead you can easily grab Drama in the BC era.

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No, that would ruin my tech advance, which is capital, for some random tiles, just as increasing the culture slider.

Hey, I never knew that about mountains. So that's pretty cool. If you want to specialize your cities you have to build certain buildings (like theaters, obelisks, wonders (Great Lighthouse, Stonehenge, the Pyramids, the Oracle, the Parthenon, the Temple of Artemis, and even more)), not adjust the slider.

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And you could as well build for some culture-cash buildings... that's the point of this topic after all.

Allowing for a city-by-city investment slider would defeat the purpose. When I just started playing Civ I thought that way too, but that wouldn't be very practical.

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I agree with the very last part, not very practical it would be.

Lol, this debate has been kinda fun.

So far I think we've come to a general agreement, but

Naokaukodem said:

It has the advantage of being your first city, knowing that in the time you build your first settler you have the time to build Stonehenge before it get to another civ. Still too complicated?

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Building your settler as soon as you start your city is really, really stupid. I'm not saying that's what you meant, but just go with me on this one. First, if you're playing on any reasonable difficulty level it's common sense to build a warrior to protect your capital. (Of course, you can just put your starting warrior/scout in your city, but that's a waste of a good few turns of scouting . You can never scout your surroundings too much. ) Second, if you let your city grow to size 2 first, you can generally finish your settler before you would if you just worked on it in size 1.

Plus, a Settler costs 100 hammers and Stonehenge is 120. Also Settlers use food so you finish it quicker. Factoring in that while building Stonehenge your capital is likely to grow in size, you can still finish the Settler 2-3 times as fast.

From here, this debate isn't really about Civ mechanics and structure, it's more about strategy. So whatever works for you, . I'm cool with it.