The Bull Reincarnate II

As the 1st game didn't go so well with 3 AGG AIs around and ending not so well, this is take 2 on the game.
We need a space victory here.

All GSpies must be settled in the capital, 1st GSpy is settled, 2nd creates Scotland Yard, the rest get settled. Spies must be run first before other specialists, but self research is encouraged.

{Copied from madscientist's Power of Settled Great Spies}
Buildings we want

Palace (+4eps): For the reason, your capital will be your espionage city.
Courthouse (+2eps, opens up 1 spy specialists) Opens with Code of Laws so we want to target this tech
Jail (+4eps, +50% espionage, allows 2 spy specialists) opens with constitution, so if you can manage to get nationalism before being the first to liberalism, take constitution as the free tech. Be warned, this is not easy.
Intelligence agency (+8eps, +50% ep, opens up 2 spy specialists) Opens with Communism which also get’s us a free Great Spy! So beeline communism if possible
Security Bureau (+8eps, 50% defense against enemy spy missions, helps the twart spy missions, open 2 spy specialists) Open with democracy.
Scottland Yard: (100% ep bonus) must be founded with a GSpy.
Castle: (+25% ep) obsolete with economics, so we want to delay this tech as long as possible.

Wonders we want:
Great Wall: of prime importance for the GSpy points, keeping the barbs out, and getting GGs from defensive wars. Basically if you miss this wonder, adjust you game and try a different strategy.
Kremlin: allows 2 additional spy specialists, so you want this in the capital if possible.
National Epic: To speed up GSpy production
(optional) Pentegon: +2xp for every unit, although not necessary but creates +2GSpy points

The Statue of Liberty may be added so every city gets a free spy specialist

Civics: State Property is a must, Pacifism to help produce GSpies faster, all others are fair game.

Research: Research as normal, steal all other we don't have.

Any buildings producing must be built before anything else.

Courthouses, Castles, Intelligence Agencies, Jails, Security Bureaus

Wars: Bull must protect himself at all times. He can't declare unless he sees an opportunity to take land that he wants.

Map: (kossin provided me with a map, thanks kos!) B&S Monarch/Epic everything else standard.

Start


roster:
1 ifinnem
2 huerfanista
3
4
5 cripp

BTW: Something that BTS left out that I believe is a key function, is the ability to build just like you can build ,,. Here's a file that you put into your CustomAssets folder. It doesn't overwrite anything but just adds the ability to build at Paper

I'm game.
Been playing around with some EP based games recently.
Monarch should be well in my comfort zone - will we have enough to steal at this level tho?

EDIT: Are we gonna use any MODs eg BUFFY?

Sure thing, no mods. I'm using BUG4.3+BULL1.1. There'll be plenty to take, we go after the main techs the AI don't have.

cripp7 said:

Sure thing, no mods. I'm using BUG4.3+BULL1.1. There'll be plenty to take, we go after the main techs the AI don't have.

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Ok so no MODs that alter gameplay

To make sure I don't mess up the SG - I believe BUFFY saves aren't compatible with non BUFFY installs- is this true?
If so I guess it's best to install BUG to get the same functionality for myself without screwing it up for anyone else...

That's correct, if you load/save a game with a mod then you have to use that mod. Yes install bug in the CustomAssets option.

I'm up for this, although it'll be my first SG (I've been lurking a lot, so I have a pretty good idea of the rules of the road). Comfortable on Monarch, and while I'm no spymaster I've played around with it some.

huerfanista said:

I'm up for this, although it'll be my first SG (I've been lurking a lot, so I have a pretty good idea of the rules of the road). Comfortable on Monarch, and while I'm no spymaster I've played around with it some.

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that's why we're here! It's all good, read the Settled Spy guide in the OP

cripp7 said:

All GSpies must be settled in the capital. Spies must be run first before other specialists, but self research is encouraged.

...
Buildings we want
...
Scotland Yard: (100% ep bonus) must be founded with a GSpy.

Click to expand...

So we can use 1 spy for Scotland Yard? If so I think its best to settle #1 and then go Scotland yard with #2 (that gives +12 then 100% on the palace + settled GSpy)

EDIT: Doh! I see that's exactly what Mad says in the article - oh well at least we agree

cripp7 said:

Wars: Bull must protect himself at all times. He can't declare unless he sees an opportunity to take land that he wants.

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What does this mean exactly - in Bull game #1 you could only take cities once declared upon by someone, ie no declaring ourselves. Is this still the case?

ifinnem said:

What does this mean exactly - in Bull game #1 you could only take cities once declared upon by someone, ie no declaring ourselves. Is this still the case?

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I have the same question.

EDIT: Another question: are events on in this game? I have them permanently disabled in the XML, but can re-renable them if needed.

Ah, the Bull game we got cornered in pretty quick. And with that set rule we couldn't REX which pretty much killed the game, so that rule was changed. Also the rule about the SY in every city, so it's settle the 1st and SY the 2nd, then settle the rest.

Events are on in this, so you'll have to re-enable that.

cripp7 said:

Ah, the Bull game we got cornered in pretty quick. And with that set rule we couldn't REX which pretty much killed the game, so that rule was changed.

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I read over the previous game. I think we could definitely keep the previous rule of not declaring etc. As long as the map lets us get a few decent cities we can always provoke to war if needed. More importantly I think it reinforces the need for a good early REX.
This is doable since crashing the economy matters even less than normal as we need to be behind to steal & catch up anyway

In summary I think the way the rule was before is more fun but no biggie

I've been playing a couple of off-line games with Bull and an EE, just to get up to speed.

- First off, the "build espionage" files don't seem to be working for me. As I understand it, once you have Paper you should see a "build espionage" icon in the city screen build list. It's not there. I moved the folders to "My Documents/My Games/Beyond the Sword/customassets" - should I have moved them to "Program Files/Firaxis Games/Beyond the Sword/customassets" instead? I'll try that.

- Mad's 2 espionage games highlight different EE styles: the Mao game used settled GSpies and normal teching with the espionage slider set to 0 most of the time. The Peter game used SYs in all high-commerce cities with the espionage slider set to the max affordable (until late-game when he had more EPs than he could use, so he went to all cash). His comments after the Peter game seemed to indicate that the "Peter" approach was more powerful. I'm assuming, however, that you want to play the "Mao" style of EE?

- I think that we should keep the war option open (rather that the more restricitive requirement for someone to DOW on us). It seems to me that grabbing some good land will be key - it's not that easy running an EE without some decent land.

- I looked at the previous Reincarnation of Bull game, and a couple of things jumped out at me. Initial settling was way too cautious - settlers should have been spammed to claim as much land as possible, rather that trying to claim nearby land (especially the over-emphasis on copper, which is not needed at all by Bull - doggies are resourceless - iron is much more important in the long run). Also, it's vitally important, I think, to get a settler out before starting the GW so that we don't get boxed in. Ideally, it should settle a high-food site so that it can take over worker/settler production quickly, in addition to claiming/blocking land. It can be whipped (for 2 pop) into the GW for extra hammers on the wonder. I don't think we're going to be lucky enough to grab stone in the BFC this time.

- My thoughts about the start: 1S looks like a better start to me. It exchanges 2 ocean for 2 coast, has 5 water tiles (all coastal) vs 8, thereby grabbing more land tiles without losing any of the initially revealed tiles, and has at least 3 hills. If settling doesn't show an AG resource in the BFC, I'd go WB>worker>WB, using the highest tiles available to get the WB out quickly, then switching to the fish for the worker. If an AG resource is revealed, I'd go worker>WB>WB working the highest food tile for the worker, then highest for the 1st WB until the worker improves the food, then back to that food for growth. An additional warrior or 2 should precede the settler, so we're at least at pop 4 before starting the settler, whipping for 2 pop into the GW. For tech path, I'd go mining>masonry>BW. If an AH resource shows up in the BFC, then what? AH is expensive and will delay getting to BW for chopping out the GW. Anyway, those are my thoughts.

ok, we'll keep it in for now. Let's get started on discussion on the game.

fish/crab/2 lakes/4 hills that are visible. Lakes with a lighthouse give 32 so those are like farms. Which way to move the warrior? Settling in place would be best atm.

huerfanista said:

- I looked at the previous Reincarnation of Bull game, and a couple of things jumped out at me. Initial settling was way too cautious - settlers should have been spammed to claim as much land as possible, rather that trying to claim nearby land (especially the over-emphasis on copper, which is not needed at all by Bull - doggies are resourceless - iron is much more important in the long run). Also, it's vitally important, I think, to get a settler out before starting the GW so that we don't get boxed in. Ideally, it should settle a high-food site so that it can take over worker/settler production quickly, in addition to claiming/blocking land. It can be whipped (for 2 pop) into the GW for extra hammers on the wonder. I don't think we're going to be lucky enough to grab stone in the BFC this time.

Click to expand...

I agree on these comments - aggressive settling is key for the 2 reasons you mention
1) harder to take land by war later due to variant
2) since we plan to tech normal EPs come from a) settled spies but b) large number of cities all with esp buildings

I disagree on the use of the 1st settler tho - taking over the settler worker pump is nice but not the priority.
Capital is great food city so will churn out settlers and workers easily plus be great GP farm later.
1st city should grab land (only real requirement) and ideally have some good production for military (agree on 2 pop whip into GW)

huerfanista said:

- My thoughts about the start: 1S looks like a better start to me.

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2nd this - does lose a forest but think its worth it

huerfanista said:

If settling doesn't show an AG resource in the BFC, I'd go WB>worker>WB, using the highest tiles available to get the WB out quickly, then switching to the fish for the worker. If an AG resource is revealed, I'd go worker>WB>WB working the highest food tile for the worker, then highest for the 1st WB until the worker improves the food, then back to that food for growth. An additional warrior or 2 should precede the settler, so we're at least at pop 4 before starting the settler, whipping for 2 pop into the GW. For tech path, I'd go mining>masonry>BW. If an AH resource shows up in the BFC, then what? AH is expensive and will delay getting to BW for chopping out the GW. Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Click to expand...

Similar ideas but a few key changes
I'd go WB whether we have AG resource or not since with a forested hill avail (plains forest hill after border pop) we get the WB in 14 turns and can immediately improve the fish for a 5F2C tile.
Since we won't grow much(+1F) during the WB build I'd go warrior next (early scouting in both directions is key for land grab) to grow to size 2, work plains hill forest again with pop 2.
Then worker ->WB -> GW till cap 4 -> settler -> GW
Wker mines open hill then chops and mines 2nd grass hill then 2x chops from grassland (all chops into GW)
Start settler at size 4 and whip for 2 pop max overlow (a little micro required here to avoid wasting worker turns after chops)

Tech path - Min-BW-Masonary as we only have 1 unforested hill so need things for worker to do + also need to chop GW. Mas first is too early as we wont start the GW then.

Did a WB simulation and this gets us the following
warrior out on t23
wker on t 36
Mason t 44
Settler out t 63 (2425 BC)
GW t 76 (2100BC) - plenty early enough on Monarch (I had Ramasees in the simulation)

My gut says WB->wker->WB is best but maybe someone can check if WB->WB->wker is better

After this prob dog -> wker -> settler (while bringing back a warrior to garrison the cap for happy cap 5) but too early to be sure

cripp7 said:

Which way to move the warrior?

Click to expand...

No warrior move will help settling decision so I vote move N towards village and start scouting the area

ifinnem said:

Similar ideas but a few key changes
I'd go WB whether we have AG resource or not since with a forested hill avail (plains forest hill after border pop) we get the WB in 14 turns and can immediately improve the fish for a 5F2C tile.
Since we won't grow much(+1F) during the WB build I'd go warrior next (early scouting in both directions is key for land grab) to grow to size 2, work plains hill forest again with pop 2.
Then worker ->WB -> GW till cap 4 -> settler -> GW
Wker mines open hill then chops and mines 2nd grass hill then 2x chops from grassland (all chops into GW)
Start settler at size 4 and whip for 2 pop max overlow (a little micro required here to avoid wasting worker turns after chops)

Tech path - Min-BW-Masonary as we only have 1 unforested hill so need things for worker to do + also need to chop GW. Mas first is too early as we wont start the GW then.

Did a WB simulation and this gets us the following
warrior out on t23
wker on t 36
Mason t 44
Settler out t 63 (2425 BC)
GW t 76 (2100BC) - plenty early enough on Monarch (I had Ramasees in the simulation)

My gut says WB->wker->WB is best but maybe someone can check if WB->WB->wker is better

After this prob dog -> wker -> settler (while bringing back a warrior to garrison the cap for happy cap 5) but too early to be sure


No warrior move will help settling decision so I vote move N towards village and start scouting the area

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I agree about getting a warrior out before the worker - we need some scouting in both directions.

IF we have an AG resource in the BFC (rice, wheat, corn), it depends on whether it's a 4 yield tile when improved (dry rice) or something better (wet/dry rice/corn or wet rice). I can get the GW built by 2125BC by improving the food first if it's a 4 yield tile (dry rice), and by 2175BC if it's a 5 yield tile (and probably earlier if it's 6 yield). I'd say the case of dry rice is somewhat of a tossup with the clam, since you get 2 per turn for the clam. But a 5 /6 yield food is clearly better when improved first and a 2nd WB is put off until after the GW finishes. After worker pops, farm food and work unimproved food+fish till pop3 while building GW, then add plains hill. Then mine unforested hill while working improved food + fish + plains hill until pop4. Switch to settler, working plains hill + food + fish + and other 3 yield tile. Next turn mine is finished so switch to that from the 3 yield tile. Build worker until as close to 103 as you can get without going over, then switch to slavery and whip for 2 pop into GW. Worker meanwhile prechops remaining grass hill, making sure not to chop into the settler until ready to whip. Then chop 2 forested tiles. Settler comes out on turn 59, GW finishes in 2175BC.

One of the things I had the most trouble with was making sure that one of the warriors was back in the city before it goes to pop4, otherwise you lose due to 1 unhappy citizen.

After this prob dog -> wker -> settler (while bringing back a warrior to garrison the cap for happy cap 5) but too early to be sure

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You need the warrior back when the city goes to pop4, otherwise you get 1 unhappy citizen.

Ran another test with dry corn in the BFC. Going worker> warrior> WB> GW> settler (whip at 103/149)> GW gets the worker at T23, warrior at T29, settler at T62, GW at 2250BC, with 4 chops. Improvements: fish, corn, 2 grass mines, 2nd WB in 6. I put a chop into the first WB (using 12 to complete it, the rest going into GW). Downside of not going WB first is some lost (I'm guessing around 46 ).

Ran 2 tests with WB>WB>worker>warrior>settler>GW. I could finish the GW by 2025BC with 2 chops, 2 mines, corn, 2WB, worker on T41, warrior on T48, settler on T60. Alternately, by not building the 2 mines and putting 4 chops in, I finished GW in 2100BC. Both have very good research, due to more 2 coast tile turns. In the first case, the city was at size 4 when finished (working fish + plains hill + 2 grass hill mines), in the second at size 5 (working 2WBs + corn + plains hill).

EDIT: Research was mining> BW> masonry> wheel> myst> pottery> writing> sailing. I was 2 turns from finishing sailing in the 1st case (2025BC), and 4 turns from finishing sailing in the 2nd case (2100BC)

huerfanista said:

I've been playing a couple of off-line games with Bull and an EE, just to get up to speed.

- First off, the "build espionage" files don't seem to be working for me. As I understand it, once you have Paper you should see a "build espionage" icon in the city screen build list. It's not there. I moved the folders to "My Documents/My Games/Beyond the Sword/customassets" - should I have moved them to "Program Files/Firaxis Games/Beyond the Sword/customassets" instead? I'll try that.

Click to expand...

Copy the contents (Art & XML) of the Assests into your CustomAssests folder. I repacked the rar file so you can just copy it into the Custom.

- Mad's 2 espionage games highlight different EE styles: the Mao game used settled GSpies and normal teching with the espionage slider set to 0 most of the time. The Peter game used SYs in all high-commerce cities with the espionage slider set to the max affordable (until late-game when he had more EPs than he could use, so he went to all cash). His comments after the Peter game seemed to indicate that the "Peter" approach was more powerful. I'm assuming, however, that you want to play the "Mao" style of EE?

Click to expand...

True about Peter's game being more powerful, but this is going to be a more Mao style game. SYs in the high commerce seem to to generate more eps when running the ep slider, but we ccan run it as needed.

- I think that we should keep the war option open (rather that the more restricitive requirement for someone to DOW on us). It seems to me that grabbing some good land will be key - it's not that easy running an EE without some decent land.

Click to expand...

That's what I did in the 1st and backfired not REXing fast enough and that rule is still going to apply, unless SB needs to take land he has to have.

- I looked at the previous Reincarnation of Bull game, and a couple of things jumped out at me. Initial settling was way too cautious - settlers should have been spammed to claim as much land as possible, rather that trying to claim nearby land (especially the over-emphasis on copper, which is not needed at all by Bull - doggies are resourceless - iron is much more important in the long run). Also, it's vitally important, I think, to get a settler out before starting the GW so that we don't get boxed in. Ideally, it should settle a high-food site so that it can take over worker/settler production quickly, in addition to claiming/blocking land. It can be whipped (for 2 pop) into the GW for extra hammers on the wonder. I don't think we're going to be lucky enough to grab stone in the BFC this time.

Click to expand...

All valid points which I hope we can correct here. Was more emphised on getting GW before anyone else, neglected on good city spots. attach your test start. We can't assume there's an AG source, although it would be nice, let's just go by what's shown. I agree after looking at the screeny about 1S, we can move the settler and post another shot to get a better idea about where to go. I think we're in agreement on 1S right?

Yup lets move 1S and repost

I think our approach to the opening "phase 1" until the GW is fairly clear. After that it gets interesting so we should share some thoughts on that section
Builds are fairly clear in that its bascially dogs, settlers and wkers to grab land but the tech order and GPP is the ??

Some key questions:
Are we allowed to generated GPs that are not spies?
How soon do we go for COL to build CHs and run a Spy in the cap?
What is our intended tech path to get the EPs going (prob Constitution/democ from Lib? then Comm?)

I definitely found that trying to steal CoL takes too long so we should self research / trade for it
Also think we need to cottage the capital as well as run spezies there since we will have a food surplus for a while and the EPs won't really kick in till later so we need beaur + acad for research power
Growing happy cap ASAP is also key given the hi food cap

I agree on 1S. But it might be good to move warrior N first and repost before moving settler. Just in case.

CoL should be a priority, but not THE priority. IMO wheel should come early for hooking up cities (trade route income) and resources (secondary benefit early on, unless happy resources are available), also sailing (ease of connecting cities, lucrative foreign TRs), myst (border pops on expansion cities), pottery>writing (writing very important to keeping research going during a REX). I'd suggest something along the lines of wheel> myst (want around the time 1st settler is out)> pottery> writing> sailing> alpha> currency> CoL. Definitely want to prioritize alpha after writing, since it's always a good trade on monarch, and can be use for building research towards currency in case of an economic crash, plus we'll want to build some spies ASAP.

IMX, the early GSpy is very effective at quickly enabling tech stealing. As soon as we see who's teching well, all EPs should be focused on them. Once we've gotten to CoL we should direct research towards techs that are not favored by the AIs - we'll be stealing/trading for everything else.

I think it's very important to run other specialists, especially GSs in a GP farm (if we can set one up). However, I don't think we should run anything other than a spy in the capital until we've gotten a 2nd GSpy for SY there (this could be the 2nd or 3rd gp). Settled GSpy + SY plus CHs and spy specialists elsewhere will get us a ton of EPs. However, GSs are very useful for bulbing techs like phil, edu, lib, PP, chem, SM. We definitely want to try and get 3 GSs for bulbing the lib line, aiming to take constitution if we can (Jails).

True about Peter's game being more powerful, but this is going to be a more Mao style game. SYs in the high commerce seem to to generate more eps when running the ep slider, but we ccan run it as needed.

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Agreed. The Mao style is quite powerful, and I'm comfortable running it.

We can't assume there's an AG source, although it would be nice, let's just go by what's shown.

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Sure, but there's got to be either food or a strategic resource in the BFC - 2 seafood is not enough. We'll find something else for sure eventually. But given the resourcelessness of doggies, a good food resource (in addition to the fish) would be much appreciated.

What is our intended tech path to get the EPs going (prob Constitution/democ from Lib? then Comm?)

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Agreed. This works nicely with a GS bulb path - phil, edu, and lib with 1 GS each, then PP for the demo beeline, GP>chem (bulb)> SM (bulb)> communism. SoL and Kremlin are both great wonders for the spy game. We should definitely leverage the PHI trait in this regard, and GSpies are not that important after the 2nd one. Jail, sec bureaus, intel agencies are very powerful so beelining the required tech is the strongest approach, IMO. However, a diversion to lit for an attempt on the GLib could be really powerful for this strat, especially if we can grab marble.