Demo Game: Early Religion (Isabella)

On request, I'm starting a demo game to showcase early religion strategy on Emperor difficulty. I am a fair Emperor player but no expert, and welcome your comments and criticism.

Leader: Isabella (Spiritual/Expansive, starts with Fishing and Mysticism). Spain's UU (Conquistador) and UB (Citadel) are powerful if gained early enough.

Settings: Emperor / Continents / Normal speed / Standard settings

Here's the start (and yes, it was the first one I generated):



Not a bad start, really ... two seafood to work early and the coveted plains hill location. Floodplains nearby, too. Gold in the distance for second city (there's actually a second gold too that appeared after I settled). Ideally, I would have seafood or a lake adjacent to the start so I could work a 2F 2C tile right away, but I don't want to move 1N for the lake and thereby miss the fish. So ...

I settled in place and started working a coast tile to get my research time on Polytheism down to 12 turns:



When I get a border expansion, I will start working the lake or unimproved clam tile for the extra food. Madrid is set up as a very food-heavy capital; perfect for cranking out workers and settlers and running specialists. If I can religion spam enough, I can build multiple temples and run lots of priest specialists. Madrid could also be transformed into a powerful production city using the Moai Statues and workshops.

Feel free to play along. I am merely trying to show that early religion is feasible and can be advantageous, even at higher levels.

I'll run a control game w/o early religion.

TheMeInTeam said:

I'll run a control game w/o early religion.

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I'm honored and anticipate being thoroughly spanked in the final outcome. Still, it should be interesting.

Since I'm on Continents, it is very likely that my religion spam could result in the other continent's being all Buddhist (e.g.), which will of course have major ramifications.

Anyway, this map will present several challenges for the religious strategy:

1 - getting early religion without overly ganking my expansion and defense
2 - dealing with other continent and possible religious bloc there
3 - deciding how to best deal with neighbors on home continent with an eye towards endgame

The current plan is to try to grab Polytheism out of the gate. Failing that, Monotheism. If I get Hinduism, I will probably head for Mining, Bronze Working, Agriculture, the Wheel, and Pottery ASAP, while building warriors and spawn-busting using TMIT's techniques.

I'm honored and anticipate being thoroughly spanked in the final outcome. Still, it should be interesting.

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I don't micro carefully enough for that . Besides, game outcomes are dependent on a lot of factors. What it will probably show, however, is how differently diplo plays out depending on who gets religion.

Since I'm on Continents, it is very likely that my religion spam could result in the other continent's being all Buddhist (e.g.), which will of course have major ramifications.

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Alternatively, if it is on *your* continent, yours can run away with religious spam and the other will be very, very backwards.

I was actually tempted by NW for capitol since I'm somewhat a health whore lately, but we ARE exp and settling the plains hill is probably better.

mariogreymist said:

I'll take a run at this too, just for fun...though normal speed is something I normally screw up pretty badly. I have been successfully adapting to epic though, so I am guessing I can begin to try fast speeds.

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Epic speed spoiled me (militarily, at least). When I went back to normal speed, it made me a better player. Every turn matters. Normal speed makes me focus on the immediate, especially on Emperor. If you fool around and don't have a plan, you will find yourself without land and/or getting invaded quickly.

Nice cap. If going bureaucracy, I'd move the cap inland to the gold/floodplains area, but this will at least be a solid worker/settler pump early as well as a good GP farm.

As for religion, if your continent doesn't have a Justinian/Pacal/Wang Kon/Saladin who likes to found an early religion, it can be a big boost.

What if you're isolated?

Jerrymander said:

What if you're isolated?

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Religion whore and win culture.

TheMeInTeam said:

Religion whore and win culture.

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Hah...like we need isolation for that. I'd like to make a caveat before posting some screenshots and the description of my game: there's a difference between not going for early religion and not playing a religious game.

Not my best game...:/

1 AD



1894 Domination/Conquest (same turn)

slobberinbear said:

I settled in place and started working a coast tile to get my research time on Polytheism down to 12 turns

Click to expand...

I'm all but certain that's an error.

With a Noble handicap, the cost of Polytheism is 130 . If the AI decides to race you, and has no helpful tiles, they will be researching at ( 8 + 1 + 1 ) * 1.2 = 12 per turn.

In other words, the AI discovers Poly on turn 11 in the worst case. Trimming yourself down from 13 turns to 12 turns doesn't improve your odds of winning the race (unless the AI skips a turn of research).

What it does do is choke your growth - you are trading 1 extra turn with Polytheism for... well, let's compare

A) 168 19/22 24
B) 149 3/24 15 (fish improved)

If you must hurry, when the borders pop switch to the sheep
C) 162 5/24 , 24 ... the option to trade some surplus research and food for hammers, if you like.

Round One: Turns 1 - 120

Scouting reveals poor land near the two gold tiles. They can be worked with a nearby wheat tile but the city will be suboptimal.

Turn 8: popped the Wheel from a hut. A good sign.

Turn 9: Met Willem's scout, from the north likely.

Turn 12: Hinduism gambit successful!



New techpath: Mining / BW, then reevaluate. I seriously considered going straight for Pottery (since I had picked up the Wheel from a hut), but it appears that there is a lot of land to expand into and I want to find the nearby copper (if any) ASAP.

Turn 13: hut luck continues; picked up a scout.

Turn 15: I hit size 2; workboat finishes, start on worker. Due to expansive trait, working hammer tiles results in getting worker three turns sooner ...

Turn 16: new scout pops Masonry from a hut! Could this mean ... yes! Monotheism super early! I swap into researching Mono and go back to working commerce tiles ...

Am I crazy? Possibly. But I am keeping Willem from getting a religion for awhile ... protecting me from diplomatic peril except from the Buddhist, whomever he/she is ...

Turn 19: met Ragnar's scout. I am guessing he is to the north or east somewhere.

Turn 26: worker finishes, I start on a warrior. Worker will be building roads until I get some worker techs in.

Turn 27: Judaism gambit successful! Madrid is a double holy city!



I go back to researching Mining / BW.

Turn 28: Willem is very close to the north ... I need to grab that gold quick.

Turn 32: Warrior finishes on turn Madrid hits size 3. I am going straight to a settler to get the gold site.

Turn 40: BW is in, and thank Vishnu too ... copper in the BFC ... and in the square 1N of the capital where I could have settled! Woot! I pop into slavery and will 1-whip the settler ASAP to get the gold site from Willem, then I'm thinking an axe rush on his Dutch butt. Techpath is now Agriculture / AH / Pottery.

Turn 43: Barb archer kills my exploring warrior. Glad I have copper. Settler whipped out, I put overflow in a worker and then will start on axes.

Turn 45: Barcelona founded:



Obviously, this is a blocking/resource city, and its long term prospects are poor, with lots of desert and mountain tiles. But it has enough food to work the gold, and most importantly, deny it to Financial Willem.

Turn 49: second worker finishes, copper hooked up. Query: barracks or no barracks? Willem has no particular defensive advantages other than his high culture. I decide to build the barracks to be safe and revolt into Organized Religion to build it quicker. This also requires me to adopt a state religion; and since none has spread to my neighbors yet, I pick Judaism for now. This will let Madrid grow to size 7 (4 base happy +1 palace +1 religion +1 gold), allowing great production early.

Turn 50: turns out Ragnar is due north of Willem ... I need to be careful here that after taking out Willem that I don't allow Ragnar to expand like crazy. Managing him will be an issue, especially if I take out our mutual neighbor ... hmmm.

Turn 55: barracks done, time for *Axemen.

Turn 67: still building axes. Agriculture / AH / Pottery done ... moving on to Writing.

turn 70: willem expanding like crazy ... need to attack him soon

Turn 75: writing in, going for Priesthood ... Madrid already size 7 and I could use some cheap temples for happiness and prophets eventually.

Turn 77: I rearrange my tiles so that I can do a 2-pop axe whip when Madrid hits size 8 (and goes unhappy ...) .. putting overflow into cheap Jewish temple.

Turn 78: Priesthood in. Going for Alphabet so I can trade with Ragnar.

Turn 81: open borders with Ragnar.

Turn 82: DOW on Willem with 10 Axes, reinforcements on the way to support. Willem has at least 4 cities but no copper, apparently. He has horses but I'm not sure if they're hooked up.

Turns out Willem has copper or iron, but must have just hooked it up. Amsterdam defended by 4 archers and 1 axe, not on a hill. I'm going for it.

Turn 84: Amsterdam falls. I lose just 4 axes. I decide to turn off research until after the war and I have some libraries up. With two temples in Madrid, I start running two priest specialists.

Turn 91: Utrecht, a cottage city to Amsterdam's north, falls. I keep it as it blocks Ragnar. I am heading north to capture Willem's northernmost cities first, then will come back and keep / raze the ones in the rear that I won't need right away. In essence, Willem has already blocked Ragnar for me ...

Turn 93: Nijmenjen, Willem's iron city, is the next target. Gotta love the iron mine giveaway ..

Turn 94: Mijmejen falls. I need to get a missionary up to Ragnar to convert him fast.

Turn 100 or so : Ragnar converts to judaism. I redirect my missionary to Amsterdam, which needs the happiness.

Turn 102: the battle of Rotterdam begins. Willem apparently has a second source of iron ... but my axes whittle him down hard the first round of battle ...

Getting me my first great general. I decide to make him a super-medic, and use a warrior for the purpose so I can eventually give him woodsman III. I don't have horses hooked up yet so a chariot was not an option.

Turn 103: Rotterdam falls. As it is located one off the coast and gets mountain tiles, and is behind my Ragnar line, I raze it.

Turn 105: Great Prophet arrives in Madrid, Temple of Solomon built there. Willem has one city left; stopping axe production and whipping libraries in most cities.

Turn 107: With Alphabet in, I swing a pitiful tech trade with Ragnar (Hunting for Polytheism; I will need spears to defend against Ragnar's chariots). He also has Monarchy and Iron Working but I have Writing on him. Ragnar is Pleased with me but I need to get him to Friendly, which will mean caving into his requests and keeping my power rating up. Started to research Currency over Monarchy on theory that with Gold, state religion, and temples, economy > vertical growth in the short term, especially since I am keeping a lot of Willem's cities.

Turn 109: Captured the Hague; lost Great General / medic warrior trying to get a cheap xp with 90% odds ... sigh ... also turns out Willem has one more city to the east. I hopefully have enough units to finish the job. Good news there is that city appears to be in eastern jungle, which will complete sealing of continent against Ragnar once captured.

Turn 119: Barely captured Maastricht, wiping out Willem.

This seemed like a good place to stop:



I have Ragnar fairly blocked off, though he will have a few ways through for a few more turns until my culture completes the seal. After that, I will be expanding, working on the economy, and trying to get a third religion while reaching out to the other continent, which I fear may be a Buddhist/Confucian bloc ...



... though Christianity was also just founded. I may have to hustle to get the Apostolic Palace, Islam and/or Taoism. Hopefully, the other continent is locked in a holy war.

Lastly, I pull this trade with Ragnar:



This feels harmless to me ... he has no one to tech trade with other than me, so Alphabet doesn't harm me. I want Monarchy so I can vertically grow and run more specialists in Madrid especially. Mathematics will also be key to get some aqueducts up, as health will be an issue as I grow.

Ragnar has a 2:1 power edge on me too, so I have to get cracking on the military ASAP.

The tech situation is not too bad:

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I will probably do a backfill trade with him soon to pick up Iron Working and Sailing, and may grab Aesthetics next for that purpose.

In retrospect, I suppose this is not the sort of religious game that I implied when I started the thread. However, due to the start, the closeness of a sackable target, and copper in the BFC, I felt obliged to play the map and take out Willem. I plan to resume my religious strategy ASAP, assuming that I can get another religion and build the AP. If I can keep Ragnar off my back, I'll have a huge landmass to settle peacefully.

Again, my point was to prove that early religion is a legitimate option at higher levels and provides tangible early benefits, to wit:

* culture
* happiness
* gold from the shrine
* improved relations with Ragnar

I have no doubt that had I avoided early religion and gone straight for BW, I could have axe rushed Willem sooner, though Ragnar would probably have expanded further south.

Whats the connection between grabbing all the religions and doing the AP vote?

If you had 4, or 5, or 6 relgions wouldn't a cultural win come sooner?

I think if you want an AP win, you really only need 1 religion.

budweiser said:

Whats the connection between grabbing all the religions and doing the AP vote?

If you had 4, or 5, or 6 relgions wouldn't a cultural win come sooner?

I think if you want an AP win, you really only need 1 religion.

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I hear you and agree ... my overall point is becoming muddled.

Here's my thesis:

(1) Early religion is not necessarily a bad move at higher difficulty levels
(2) A religion-focused strategy (whether cultural, diplomatic, or military) is feasible at higher difficulty levels.

I am allowing the game to play out without determining which victory path I will attempt. I am trying to support my thesis while also "playing the map."

The grabbing of the religions supports many different strategies:

(1) denial to AI
(2) multi-shrine income potential
(3) cultural win, as you point out

In a nutshell, I am attempting to disprove (at least on Emperor) that early religion is a bad idea.