Redesigning vassalage

I know many people here have expressed their discontent at the Firaxis vassalage system implemented in Warlords. Masters can not cancel vassal agreements, the attitude problem, and the fact that having vassals in the late game just sounds silly...

The best solution is just to trash the current implementation and come up with our own. I think a tiered vassalage system would be much better.

Types of Vassal:

Puppet State:
A puppet state is created when an enemy capitulates to you. You can request resources, techs, even gold. They can not refuse any requests or demands. For all effective purposes, they represent you. This will be reflected in diplomatic relations with the puppet, as they will have the same attitude towards the puppet as you. Puppet states are, for all intensive purposes, dead, will not attempt to achieve victory, or any real strategy, other than general expansion. You can disband a puppet state, however, when you do, it's cities will rebel against your influence, and may switch to nearby countries. (See: South Vietnam) Rebels will be much more common in puppet states (See: Vichy France, WWII). Failing to protect your puppet states cities from attack will earn you diplomatic scorn (if they lose cities, you will lose respect with other leaders).

Colony:
A colony is created when you grant independence to far away cities. They are autonomous. While they share their resources with you (They don't give them to you, you will literally have access to every resource they have), this will be the most influence you can exert. Colonies can go to war without a masters approval, and be at war with someone while the master is at peace. Colonies will still try to win, and the AI will consider them, diplomatically, to be separate entities from yourself. You can free the colony whenever you want, or go to war with them, if you want. The chief benefit of colonies is that they must pay a tax to you, which you can every ten years, as a percentage of their total income. They can (and may) refuse to pay it, in which case, you either have to let them go peacefully, or go to war...

Protectorate:
A protectorate is a nation that you have agreed to protect. It's a willing agreement, not made through force, but via diplomacy. The protectorate must pay an annual tax, just like colonies, but if they refuse, the agreement is nullified, but war is not declared. For diplomatic purposes, others attitude towards protectorates is 1/4 what they think of the master and 3/4 the attitude of the protectorate. Protectorates can not go to war or declare peace, and must adopt the same diplomatic statuses as the master (if the master goes to war, so must the protectorate).


What do you guys think? Sound reasonable? What else is missing, or would you change?

Looks cool, I will wait for others to comment.

But one question: how will it affect Domination Victory part of Mastery Victory?

This sounds great in my opinion. I can not think of anything else to add now, but I will come back if I do.

os79 said:

Looks cool, I will wait for others to comment.

But one question: how will it affect Domination Victory part of Mastery Victory?

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They will all count towards domination.

What about if an enemy capitulates to you, but isn't completely knocked out? They wouldn't be a puppet state would they? (Only a portion of France was part of the Vichy gov after all)
Perhaps in that situation, they would go along w/ you as normal, but resent you and gradually build up more and more until they can DOW for their independence back?
Sounds like another great idea though

I miss a lighter one. A state which is strongly influenced by foreign diplomacy. Kind of what you are doing with Civic Diplomacy. Only not driven by civics, just by military or economic power. Like now Colombia by USA, Brazil by USA last century, do you understand what I mean?

konradcabral said:

I miss a lighter one. A state which is strongly influenced by foreign diplomacy. Kind of what you are doing with Civic Diplomacy. Only not driven by civics, just by military or economic power. Like now Colombia by USA, Brazil by USA last century, do you understand what I mean?

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Blocs? and Spheres of Influence?

Sounds awesome! Can't remember the last time I actually played with vassals on.

Great ideas Afforess! Your on a roll with so many new and great ideas!

I really would like to argue a little bit but - again! - I can only

What a great idea! This would make vassallage so much more useful and interesting

Great ideas Afforess! Your on a roll with so many new and great ideas!

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Actually he got the idea from the Total War mod.

If you let a puppet state go, can the original civ they were come back?

soup567 said:

If you let a puppet state go, can the original civ they were come back?

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No. If you pull your hand out of the puppet, will it come back to life? You killed it already. Cities near to your borders will join you, the rest will rebel and join nearby countries.

Afforess said:

No. If you pull your hand out of the puppet, will it come back to life? You killed it already. Cities near to your borders will join you, the rest will rebel and join nearby countries.

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oh ok, thanks for making it more clear.

A couple of comments-

1) I think you should tie the puppet state civics to that of the master. Also, if there is a revolution in the master, the puppet state might go through a bit more uncertainty. Maybe they have a small chance of breaking free?

2) The willingness to create and disband protectorates should be functions of civic overlap as well as military power. Revolutions in either the master or protectorate should probably end up with some form of renegotiation.

3) Civics should force you into certain kinds of demands for colonies. For instance, democracies might be a little less greedy than fascist or despotic states.

Just my $0.02. I had to take a haitus in order to, say, get work done on my thesis but I've been having fun playing with the new version. The new fixed borders system is no end of awesome, and truly changes the game. Now, I like to think of each city as a "state" as opposed to a city, because as you capture it you end up getting the chuck of area it controls. You've done a lot for this game Afforess. If Sid gets credit for Civ 4 you deserve at least equal credit for what is effectively Civ 4.5.

phunny_pharmer said:

A couple of comments-

1) I think you should tie the puppet state civics to that of the master. Also, if there is a revolution in the master, the puppet state might go through a bit more uncertainty. Maybe they have a small chance of breaking free?

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Good point about the civics; puppets should use the same civics. As for Revolutions, puppet states will be more willing to rebel, just because the people feel that their government is influenced too much by foreigners.

phunny_pharmer said:

2) The willingness to create and disband protectorates should be functions of civic overlap as well as military power. Revolutions in either the master or protectorate should probably end up with some form of renegotiation.

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Agreed. If the Master can't protect the protectorate, the protectorate should cancel the deal.

phunny_pharmer said:

3) Civics should force you into certain kinds of demands for colonies. For instance, democracies might be a little less greedy than fascist or despotic states.

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No taxation without represenation kinda thing? Makes sense.

phunny_pharmer said:

Just my $0.02. I had to take a haitus in order to, say, get work done on my thesis but I've been having fun playing with the new version. The new fixed borders system is no end of awesome, and truly changes the game. Now, I like to think of each city as a "state" as opposed to a city, because as you capture it you end up getting the chuck of area it controls. You've done a lot for this game Afforess. If Sid gets credit for Civ 4 you deserve at least equal credit for what is effectively Civ 4.5.

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Lol, I always feel like I haven't done enough...

Afforess, let me be a bit more clear about what I mean by 'revolutions' (since yes, there is the revolutions mod and all that). What I mean is that if your civ goes into anarchy, your protectorate should have the option of changing the agreement -- especially if you end up more regressive on the other side. For instance, there were several places that tried to break free of Russian control while the Reds and Whites were duking it out. It then took Lenin and Stalin coming in with iron fists to bring those "protectorates" back in line. On the other hand, if you draft a new constitution and end up a bit more stable and free, your protectorate should perhaps be strengthened.

It might be interesting to have a 0-1000 score bar which shows how strongly your protectorate is associated with you. I'm not necessarily sure you want to work off the revolutions mod code for building up this protectorate idea, but I could see a very interesting combination of city / country / federation wide parameters in order to control how well your meta-empire stays together. Scores could be modified by master anarchy, differences in third-power relationships between protectorate and master, the ratio of production/commerce produced by both sides, recent military victories by both sides, the strength of mutual enemies, etc. If the score gets particularly high, the protectorate revolts and may or may not become free.

Great Idea!!!!

Although I think when a 'puppet-state' is created, a 'free-state' is created from it also(that spawns units depending on the Revolution Index of the Master and Puppet State[If not careful, could spawn a whole army to retake the 'Homeland']) The 'Puppet-State' should NOT be forced into war when the master declares war(if the master is attacked, on the other hand, the master can choose to force the 'puppet-state' into war), and the master can offer the Puppet items(just like any other 'ask z to declare war on x') to declare war(not force, but offer Items).
Ex:
Vichy France never was at war with the Allies(while it was easier to say it was, because of the resistance in Tunisia)



Colonies(this is also dealing with Revolutions Mod), if too anti-Mother/Fatherland can ask to be made a colonial possesion(or a Protectorate, if things are that bad). Also Colonies should be forced to have civics that the master chooses.

But Protectorates can have any civic they choose(Colonial Possesions should be able to ask to become a Protectorate if the Government you choose is too anti-stability, and[same with the Puppet state concept described above] a 'free-state' version of the nation should be created if the Colonial Government is too unstable). Colonial Possesions should be given the choice to declare full Independence(skipping Protectorates entirely, only if the RevIndex is horrible for the Colony).
Ex:
India in it's gaining of Independence and Self-Rule
Self Rule for Canada, Austrialia, and New Zealand

Colonies should also be able to be traded, allowing the colony of Egypt to be traded from France to Japan during loss of war for France(this gives France the option to give up Egypt instead of Capitulating and losing Egypt also[although I don't think a master can capitulate, as I've never seen it happen]).
Ex:
German Colonies in Africa were traded to the Allied(and Associated) Powers in the Versailles Treaty.
Japan ceding it's colony in Korea/Manchuria(although Manchuria was more of a 'puppet-state') to Russia/China and America(this brings up another, allowing to sell part of a colony to someone and part to another, creating two of that colony).

Or even trading colonies for a lump sum of money
Ex:
Spain selling the Louisiana Purchase to France and France selling it to the United States of America(before Napoleon sold it to the U.S.).

My Two cents, since I play with Revolutions, and others might not, this might not be accepted, as it all seemingly deals with Revolutions.

Really like this! Will look forward to seeing it in action!