Satellites and SDI

Sonereal

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I originally was going to post this in this thread but it became so long and off-topic that I decided to make a thread here.

Launching a satellite into space should reveal the world map but the issue is that I see that is if I start from the Ancient Era, I already have the world map finished by the Industrial Age. Now, if satellites were a special sort of unit that floated around the map and offered benefits, that could be another benefit of the Space Race. As a matter of fact, it isn't out of line for the future-era to have a few satellite techs that allow the players to build satellites that allow the players to be able to remove the fog of war from a portion of the map it's hovering over at the moment.

It would also changed the way SDI worked. Instead of building an array of satellite automatically in space using the wonder, civilizations would have to build individual satellites that each have a small chance to a hit a nuke. (Having just one would give the nuke a 90-95% chance of hitting it's target. Two would only give it 80% and so on and so on). So, what's stopping a player from building just ten of these or more?

1. Expensive. Both production wise and maintenance wise.

2. Would require lasers, the space race to have gone on a bit, and the infrastructure to build SDI.

3. Isn't perfect.

For one, satellites shouldn't be untouchable targets. An ICBM could take out a satellite. However, SDI would stop a nuke, right? Just have ten SDI Sats and everything should be fine.

Unless there's a limit to how many ICBMs your satellites can engage at once. In which case, a swarm of ICBMs could be enough to take out an SDI network.


But then again, there's the option of orbiting death weapons as well which would come into two flavors, lasers and kinetic. These weapons would be future-era of course but have the added benefit of A.) Being deadly accurate and impossible intercept and B.) Useful as strategic weapons AND tactical weapons.

So what's the disadvantage? The Laser Sat would be weaker than an ICBM and kinetic sat and would require a recharge time. A Kinetic Sat is as devastating if not more so than an ICBM, but is also one shot and more expensive than an ICBM.

And of course, they can be hit by a nuke or anti-sat weapon.


Now, with all these weapons I'm thinking of, it would seem that there wouldn't be a commercial benefit to building them, but that would be naive. Building "civilian" satellites would give small cultural bonuses to all cities with a broadcast tower as well as give commercial bonuses to large cities.


Good idea? Bad? Needs tweak a bit?
 
Actually, if you treat satellites like units, you could just give SDI sats a radius of protection. Maybe say that each sat can only intercept one missile per turn. That way a nuclear strike isn't just a roll of the dice; it's a game of positioning.

And an ICBM should not be able to take out a satellite. You'd need dedicated satellite-killer technology.
 
sonereal: Let me guess ... you've played this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_(board_game)

If you haven't, they've got a copy of the rules here that you might be interested in, since they're almost identical to what you're proposing (except civilian satellites did not play a role).

CosmicKid said:
And an ICBM should not be able to take out a satellite. You'd need dedicated satellite-killer technology.

The warhead would do the job perfectly well; the ICBM maybe wouldn't have the right flight characteristics, but all you'd need is an orbit-capable rocket, which is relatively simple.

Obviously you couldn't take out any sort of SDI that way, but it would work just fine against communications satellites.
 
Depends on how far the future era goes. If they make it so that you can have orbital death fleets, then your satellites go obsolete.
 
If you're just looking for a way of upgrading the benefits derived from satellites, then there was a thread here a while ago (I forget which one and I can't be bothered searching for it :p) that suggested that satellites could be built as units that could go on a space layer, and illuminate the tiles it is over. Thinking of it now, you could even have some sort of tech or building that jams satellites, or something. IMO, it would be a preferable idea to complicating the system of nukes.

But as for your idea as it is, well, it's not too bad, although again, I prefer the illuminating-tiles idea. Perhaps it would be better if the number of satellites and the chance of shooting down nukes was in more of an exponential relation, so that you wouldn't have the problem of someone building 10 and blocking all nukes.
 
Actually, if you treat satellites like units, you could just give SDI sats a radius of protection. Maybe say that each sat can only intercept one missile per turn. That way a nuclear strike isn't just a roll of the dice; it's a game of positioning.

And an ICBM should not be able to take out a satellite. You'd need dedicated satellite-killer technology.

Positioning should be important but I don't see what's stopping someone from stationing a lot of satellites over a city. Then again, I do suppose that nuke spam should still win out and if the SDI always hit it's target but only hit one per turn, the situation is slightly more realistic and doesn't leave as much to chance. I have a bad habit of typing out ideas straight from my mind because they sound good at the time. :lol:


sonereal: Let me guess ... you've played this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_(board_game)

If you haven't, they've got a copy of the rules here that you might be interested in, since they're almost identical to what you're proposing (except civilian satellites did not play a role).

The warhead would do the job perfectly well; the ICBM maybe wouldn't have the right flight characteristics, but all you'd need is an orbit-capable rocket, which is relatively simple.

Obviously you couldn't take out any sort of SDI that way, but it would work just fine against communications satellites.

I've never played Supremacy but what coincidence, huh?

All sounds good. An ICBM wasn't the right choice (played too much Command and Conquer 3). :mischief:

Depends on how far the future era goes. If they make it so that you can have orbital death fleets, then your satellites go obsolete.

I don't think they'll that far because they didn't in Civ4 but it makes sense that the satellites are obsoleted by orbital death fleets (except civilian sats). However, if there was an orbital death fleet, why would the technology to allow for those ships be so close to satellites which is a relatively modern invention?

If you're just looking for a way of upgrading the benefits derived from satellites, then there was a thread here a while ago (I forget which one and I can't be bothered searching for it :p) that suggested that satellites could be built as units that could go on a space layer, and illuminate the tiles it is over. Thinking of it now, you could even have some sort of tech or building that jams satellites, or something. IMO, it would be a preferable idea to complicating the system of nukes.

But as for your idea as it is, well, it's not too bad, although again, I prefer the illuminating-tiles idea. Perhaps it would be better if the number of satellites and the chance of shooting down nukes was in more of an exponential relation, so that you wouldn't have the problem of someone building 10 and blocking all nukes.

I think the main issue I have is the way SDI is handled at the moment in where you can build a massive array of satellites, send them into space, and all of a sudden have a 50% chance of taking out incoming ICBMs.

As such, there are only two ideas I've thought or heard regarding how to handle it.

A.) Each SDI satellite is built and the chance of shooting down nukes grow in an exponential relation or

B.) SDI satellites' positioning should be a factor and get rid of chance. This system, while interesting, could be duller compared to A.

I prefer A myself because it doesn't give the first-off ability of automatically striking 50% and should never lead to a 100%.

Illuminating tiles should be a given.


How about the sat-killer missile ideas that are floating around?
 
If you're just looking for a way of upgrading the benefits derived from satellites, then there was a thread here a while ago (I forget which one and I can't be bothered searching for it :p) that suggested that satellites could be built as units that could go on a space layer, and illuminate the tiles it is over. Thinking of it now, you could even have some sort of tech or building that jams satellites, or something. IMO, it would be a preferable idea to complicating the system of nukes.
Didn't Empire Earth II or Rise of Nations or one of those games use satellites as units? I know I'm thinking of something along those lines.

Positioning should be important but I don't see what's stopping someone from stationing a lot of satellites over a city.
The same thing that's stopping someone from stationing a lot of mechanized infantry and jet fighters in that city: time and opportunity costs.

I don't think they'll that far because they didn't in Civ4 but it makes sense that the satellites are obsoleted by orbital death fleets (except civilian sats).
There have been some noises that they'll be going more into a "Next War" type era in Civ5. To be honest, they really need to; there needs to be a little more between the invention of the jet engine and interstellar travel.
 
Didn't Empire Earth II or Rise of Nations or one of those games use satellites as units? I know I'm thinking of something along those lines.

Empire Earth II had it but if I recall, you could take one down with a simple fighter jet.

The same thing that's stopping someone from stationing a lot of mechanized infantry and jet fighters in that city: time and opportunity costs.

Fair.

There have been some noises that they'll be going more into a "Next War" type era in Civ5. To be honest, they really need to; there needs to be a little more between the invention of the jet engine and interstellar travel.

I always found it odd that the technology required for what basically amounts to an IFV is just one tier behind a tech required for Fusion.
 
This is doable. Perhaps the Satellites technology (or whatever equivalent they have) could unlock this mission for jet fighters.

That sounds about right. Should ASAT missiles be something built by the player and mounted on a jet or be a standard weapon?
 
A problem I see with having missiles that can shoot down satellites, which can shoot down nukes is that soon enough there would be complaints that you don't have missiles to shoot down the missiles that shoot down the satellites that shoot down the nukes, and then complaints about not having the missiles that shoot down the missiles that shoot down the missiles that shoot down the satellites that shoot down the nukes, and so on and so forth. Putting a new step into the process in this case doesn't actually remove any inadequacy of the representation of the system, but simply transplants it further along the line. With this in mind, combined with the fact that I don't believe too much importance should be given to nukes in general, then I don't mind too much the seemingly unrealistic leap that allows one build to suddenly have an arbitrary chance of shooting down nukes, although other ideas are slightly preferable, just not ones that involve adding in the next step, merely shifting the inadequacy.
 
Jet fighters can shoot down jet fighters that carry missiles that shoot down satellites that shoot down nukes, and there the regress ends; what it amounts to is simple air superiority.
 
Well, I guess, but then you're stuck with the initial problem of having a simplified system. I mean, why is it only jet fighters that can shoot down other jet fighters? Why do you have to rely on pure air superiority?
 
Well, the objection to nukes and SDI as they currently are seems to be that they are dealt with too basically and make the whole process rather unrealistic. My point is that it doesn't matter how many more steps in the process you add in (with the first step being satellites that shoot down nukes, the next being missiles that shoot down satellites, then jet fighters that shoot down missiles), you are still not going to have a tidy ending; there is still going to be that unresolved last step in the process. So making the system more complex does not really solve the problem, but only adds importance to something that, in the scope of the game, should probably not have too much importance given to it.
 
Well it's just as tidy an ending as having nuke superiority is. I mean, you're just shifting where you must have superiority in for your nuclear arsenal to be effective from the actual nukes themselves to aircraft you have.

Hmm. That's probably still not very clear, though. I'm having a little difficulty explaining this.
 
Well, if a sat can kill one nuke per turn, than nuclear superiority also works.

Hmm. If we want to reproduce Civ4's model of tactical nukes being harder to intercept, they could "cost" two sat strikes instead of one.
 
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