Turn Discussion: Turns 20-39

Old Threads
Turns 1-19

We pop at the end of this turn so we will need to assign a tile to work. The unimp'd Silver seems like the best option, improving research while also slightly improving production.

@SC or anyone that can answer this
We had 28 beakers last turn with 11 bpt. How is it that we now have 40 Beakers .

I think the silver has already been decided.

I knew it was suggested but I wasn't sure if it was decided.

Lord Civius said:

We pop at the end of this turn so we will need to assign a tile to work. The unimp'd Silver seems like the best option, improving research while also slightly improving production.

@SC or anyone that can answer this
We had 28 beakers last turn with 11 bpt. How is it that we now have 40 Beakers .

Click to expand...

We are teching a first tier tech with no prerequisite and we know no other civs who have the tech so we don't have these two modifiers coming into play.

We get:
8c from Palace
1c from city center
2c from the two imp'd sheep tiles

This adds to 11c. I can see why you think we're only getting 11c. Makes sense. But every civ gets 1 free commerce, so we're actually getting 12c.

To see evidence of the fact that we get 1 free commerce, here is a demo screen taken before we had settled. Notice the GNP.


EDIT: actually now that I think about it, I think it must be 1 free beaker, rather than 1 free commerce, but at this point it is the same thing.

Thanks SC I've noticed it before but never could figure out why.

It must be 1 free beaker, because when you put your slider on 0% and it says you are not producing any beakers, yet you can still get a tech (though at 1bpt your going to have to wait a long time).

I want to post some micro discussion before taking the turn. I think we may have a choice to make about tile assignments this turn. I'll be posting the micro stuff tomorrow morning in about 6 hours. That won't leave us a long time to discuss it, but we'll have a little. If anyone else feels like putting up some micro numbers in the meantime, feel free.

I wanted to look at a few different scenarios for getting out a settler, but since the turn is coming up I wanted to talk about switching the unimp'd silver tile to the plains forest hill.

If we don't work the plains forest hill in the next two turns, we'd have to pull a citizen off an imp'd silver to get the Work Boat finished on t=27. I suggest we switch the tile next turn (t=25) rather than this turn since we gain an extra food that way, but lose a beaker and I just think that an extra food has a bigger impact than an extra beaker. Here's the numbers.

Plains forest hill on t=24
t=24: 23/179 beakers (14 bpt); 21/26 food (6 fpt); 17/30 (5 hpt) [2 imp'd sheep, plains forest hill]
[IBT]: Them grows to size 4
t=25: 37/179 beakers (19 bpt); 1/28 food (6 fpt); 22/30 hammers (4 hpt) [2 imp'd sheep, 2 unimp'd silvers]
t=26: 56/179 beakers (24 bpt); 7/28 food (6 fpt); 26/30 hammers (5 hpt) [2 imp'd sheep, 2 imp'd silvers]
[IBT]: Work Boat built, start on partially completed Warrior

Plains forest hill on t=25
t=24: 23/179 beakers (16 bpt); 21/26 food (7 fpt); 17/30 (3 hpt) [2 imp'd sheep, unimp'd silver]
[IBT]: Them grows to size 4
t=25: 39/179 beakers (16 bpt); 2/28 food (6 fpt); 20/30 hammers (6 hpt) [2 imp'd sheep, unimp'd silver, plains forest hill]
t=26: 55/179 beakers (24 bpt); 8/28 food (6 fpt); 26/30 hammers (5 hpt) [2 imp'd sheep, 2 imp'd silvers]
[IBT]: Work Boat built, start on partially completed Warrior

I propose we leave the tiles as they are this turn.

I will complete the turn in a few hours.

I agree with you making the tile changes that you suggested (switching from silver to forest) in order to get the wb faster at the expense of 1 beaker.

I think we discussed this earlier in the thread already but just to be on the same side, yes definitly go ahead with that... Great work on the MMing analysis BTW.

The micro ideas sound good to me.

Sommerswerd said:

I agree with you making the tile changes that you suggested (switching from silver to forest) in order to get the wb faster at the expense of 1 beaker.

I think we discussed this earlier in the thread already but just to be on the same side, yes definitly go ahead with that... Great work on the MMing analysis BTW.

Click to expand...

Just to be absolutely clear, the one beaker is a separate thing from the wb on t=27. We can get the WB on t=27 by switching one of the turns, instead of keeping it on the unimp'd silver and getting the WB on t=28. We lose more than 1 beaker by doing this (2 or 3 beakers depending on which plan we use), however I think everyone would agree that it's worth it. The 1 beaker difference is between the two plans that both get the WB out on t=27. The trade-off is 1 beaker for 1 food.

I have posted above that I think we should swap a tile next turn to the plains forest hill from the unimp'd silver (just for one turn) to get the Work Boat out 1 turn faster. Oh and by the way that extra food I was talking about. That was a mistake. Oops.

These are the turns from 24 to 28 when the Work Boat is done and after we've finished the partially built warrior (takes 1 turn).

t=24: 23/179 beakers (16 bpt); 21/26 food (7 fpt); 17/30 hammers (3 hpt) [2 imp'd sheep, unimp'd silver]
[IBT]: Them grows to size 4
t=25: 39/179 beakers (16 bpt); 2/28 food (5 fpt); 20/30 hammers (6 hpt) [2 imp'd sheep, unimp'd silver, plains forest hill]
t=26: 55/179 beakers (24 bpt); 7/28 food (6 fpt); 26/30 hammers (5 hpt) [2 imp'd sheep, imp'd silver, unimp'd silver]
[IBT]: Work Boat built, start on partially completed Warrior
t=27: 79/179 beakers (24 bpt); 13/28 food (6 fpt); 10/15 hammers with 1 overflow (5 hpt) [2 imp'd sheep, imp'd silver, unimp'd silver]
[IBT]: Warrior built.
t=28: 103/179 beakers; 19/28 food; 0/? hammers with 1 overflow

At this point I see we have two main alternatives: switching to a settler right away at size 4 or grow to size 5 and then build a settler. Each of these options has some 1-pop and 2-pop whip sub-plans, although neither plan will be finished before a forest chop came in unless we went to chop a forest before improving the second silver, which I don't recommend.

Plan A: Settler at size 4
Plan A begins a Settler on turn 28.

t=28: 103/179 beakers (21 bpt); 19/28 food (0 fpt); 0/100 hammers (12 hpt + 5 fpt) [2 imp'd sheep, imp'd silver, plains forest hill]
t=29: 124/179 beakers (21 bpt); 19/28 food (0 fpt); 17/100 hammers (10 hpt + 5 fpt) [2 imp'd sheep, imp'd silver, plains forest hill]
t=30: 145/179 beakers (24 bpt); 19/28 food (0 fpt); 32/100 hammers (7 hpt + 6 fpt) [2 imp'd sheep, imp'd silver, unimp'd silver]
t=31: 169/179 beakers (28 bpt); 19/28 food (0 fpt); 45/100 hammers (9 hpt + 6 fpt) [2 imp'd sheep, 2 imp'd silvers]
[IBT]: BW researched. We have 24 beakers for a first tier tech or 28 for a second. There's 15 overflow beakers for a first tier tech and 18 for a second.
t=32: 39 or 46/? beakers (24 or 28 bpt); 19/28 food (0 fpt); 60/100 hammers (9 hpt + 6 fpt) [2 imp'd sheep, 2 imp'd silvers]
t=33: 63 or 74/? beakers (24 or 28 bpt); 19/28 food (0 fpt); 75/100 hammers (9 hpt + 6 fpt) [2 imp'd sheep, 2 imp'd silvers]
t=34: 87 or 102/? beakers (24 or 28 bpt); 19/28 food (0 fpt); 90/100 hammers (9 hpt + 6 fpt) [2 imp'd sheep, 2 imp'd silvers]
[IBT]: Settler is built.
t=35: 111 or 130/? beakers; 19/28 food; 0/? with 3 overflow hammers

Plan B, Settler at size 5
Plan B begins by building a warrior to allow Them to grow to size 5.

t=28: 103/179 beakers (21 bpt); 19/28 food (5 fpt); 0/15 hammers with 1 overflow (7 hpt) [2 imp'd sheep, imp'd silver, plains forest hill]
t=29: 124/179 beakers (21 bpt); 24/28 food (5 fpt); 8/15 hammers (7 hpt) [2 imp'd sheep, imp'd silver, plains forest hill]
[IBT]: Them grows to size 5. Warrior built, Settler started.
t=30: 145/179 beakers (24 bpt); 1/30 food (0 fpt); 0/100 hammers (12 hpt + 4 fpt) [2 imp'd sheep, imp'd silver, unimp'd silver, plains forest hill]
t=31: 169/179 beakers (28 bpt); 1/30 food (0 fpt); 16/100 hammers (13 hpt + 4 fpt) [2 imp'd sheep, 2 imp'd silvers, plains forest hill]
[IBT]: Bronze Working researched. We have 24 beakers for a first tier tech or 28 for a second. There's 15 overflow beakers for a first tier tech and 18 for a second.
t=32: 39 or 46/? beakers (24 or 28 bpt); 1/30 food (0 fpt); 33/100 hammers (13 hpt + 4 fpt) [2 imp'd sheep, 2 imp'd silvers, plains forest hill]
t=33: 63 or 74/? beakers (24 or 28 bpt); 1/30 food (0 fpt); 50/100 hammers (13 hpt + 4 fpt) [2 imp'd sheep, 2 imp'd silvers, plains forest hill]
t=34: 87 or 102/? beakers (24 or 28 bpt); 1/30 food (0 fpt); 67/100 hammers (13 hpt + 4 fpt) [2 imp'd sheep, 2 imp'd silvers, plains forest hill]
t=35: 111 or 130/? beakers (24 or 28 bpt); 1/30 food (0 fpt); 84/100 hammers (13 hpt + 4 fpt) [2 imp'd sheep, 2 imp'd silvers, plains forest hill]
[IBT]: Settler built.
t=36

In Plan A the Settler comes out a turn earlier, but Plan B has the Settler finished and is at size 5 on turn 36, while it takes Plan A another turn to get there.

The worker finishes the second silver min on turn 31. With 1 turn moving to a forest and 3 turns chopping, the chop would come in on turn 35 with the hammers not in the box until turn 36. In both Plans the Settler comes out at least by turn 36 so the hammers would overflow onto another build. We want our hammers to go into Workers or Cheap Settlers. In Plan A we should really be growing after building a Settler so it wouldn't be an ideal time to get an influx of hammers. We could still start pre-chopping. In both plans pop whips are possible. I'll go over those for each plan below.

Plan A, with Whipping:
1-pop whip:
t=32: BW researched, revolt to Slavery
t=33: 1-pop whip Settler
t=34: Settler built.
This saves 1 turn, but trades turns of working an imp'd silver (3 turns) and a population (which grows back on t=36).

By the time we get BW we can 1-pop whip our Settler, so no 2-pop whip for this Settler.

Plan B, with Whipping
1-pop whip:
t=34: revolt to Slavery
t=35: 1-pop whip Settler
t=36: Settler is built.
The Settler comes out the same turn it would have anyway, although this time the citizen whipped was working an unimproved tile. The overflow from the Settler won't get the IMP modifier so the only reason we want this kind of overflow is if it makes the Worker that comes next done faster (depends on where the whip point is on the Worker).

2-pop whip:
t=32: BW is researched, revolt to Slavery
t=33: 2-pop whip Settler
t=34: Settler is built
This gets a Settler two turns faster than otherwise with Plan B, but takes a citizen off an improved silver mine. This gets a similar result to Plan A 1-pop whip, but is inferior because it takes longer to grow back to size 4.

Overall Notes
Chopping won't get done in time to put the hammers through our Settler modifier. If we want a Settler on turn 34 we should go with the Plan A, 1-pop whip variation. If we can wait until turn 35 we should just go straight up Plan A.

EDIT: I added a save file that you can use to look at these and other strategies. It is Sommerswerd's save with all opponents on islands. I played it through exactly the way we did up to turn 24. That way you don't have to play the beginning again each time.

One thing I would say we should do differently, is start our worker (or settler) instead of finishing the warrior. In my tests, we can still grow one more pop point before the unhapiness kicks in. So we have a base of 6, and we will be at the cap when we reach 5 pop. I would hold off of the warrior until then. Plus we dont grow while producing workers or settlers. We dont need a warrior just to stand around looking pretty.

I am thinking we should be getting a second worker before the settler, especially if we want to get any wonders. We need mutiple workers for faster chopping.

Sommerswerd said:

One thing I would say we should do differently, is start our worker (or settler) instead of finishing the warrior. In my tests, we can still grow one more pop point before the unhapiness kicks in. So we have a base of 6, and we will be at the cap when we reach 5 pop. I would hold off of the warrior until then. Plus we dont grow while producing workers or settlers. We dont need a warrior just to stand around looking pretty.

I am thinking we should be getting a second worker before the settler, especially if we want to get any wonders. We need mutiple workers for faster chopping.

Click to expand...

By "finishing our warrior" do you mean the one that is already partially built that I have being built on t=28? It does only take a turn, and I think that units start to decay in the build queue after 10 turns (for buildings I think it is 50 turns). This means if we leave it in the build queue we will lose gradually the hammers already invested in it (I think it's a rate of 1h per turn lost after 10 turns in the queue). This may or may not be worth getting a turn faster settler or worker.

A warrior wouldn't be useless at this time. It could eliminate the two tiles in which a barbarian could spawn on our island. I agree that a warrior garrison is not currently needed. At size 6 Them would have 8 unhappiness (I think). We have a base of 6, but don't forget we get +1 in a turn when the first silver mine is built. At 6 pop we'd only have 1 resisting citizen. Currently the most likely reason for us to grow to size 6 would be to 2-pop whip something without having to stop working an improved tile. If we're just whipping the citizen away immediately then it is not a waste.

As for whether we want a second worker before a Settler, this is something we should talk about and try to decide pretty soon. I was in no way suggesting a Settler first is the better strategy. We could actually wait until after the worker to do the settler, which would allow us to put the forest chops through the settler multiplier. Doesn't matter if the worker will be done before forest chops come in, since we don't get a modifier. Once we figure out which we want first we can tweak the micro-ing to best suit our situation.

I think we need to finish a warrior to fog bust. That way when we do build the settler there is no chance of a surprise.

Thanks for that updated map SilCon. I went ahead and added the updated map to the AMAZON Team Info page as well. It is a little different from yours because of some additional edits, but it is basically the same. The map also has some edits in the rival land to make them more competitive, and the GLH is taken by barbs. Also the center continent is a solid barrier all the way around, and the 'Real' team names have been added.

SilCon, I noticed...and fixed... a problem with the test maps. Mavericks and Sirius had coastal bridges that were creating trade routes when you meet them, which throws all the numbers off. Anyway, I fixed that in the test maps on the Team Info page.

I have been working alot with the test map today. (I recently got a major load of work finished and off my plate, so I got to spend a little "quality" time with CIV.)


Another thing about the test map, the AI relentlessly races you to SH and with their beefed up edited resources, they usually get it around 2000 BC...

This got me thinking... If the AI can do it, Merlot or Mavs surely can... So maybe we need a plan to get SH first. That is what I have been working on, and I will try to post my results soon in a seperate thread.

SO PLEASE hold the turn until you at least see what I have discovered.

Does anyone know how it's decided which city gets a forest chop when the tile is equidistant to two cities?

As Sommerswerd's SH demonstration has shown us, I think it is better to get the city to grow to size 5 by working two grass forests this turn. This gets us exactly enough that we will grow on T29, the same turn as we can start building a Settler.

If we don't work two grass forests this turn we can make this up by working 1 grass forest for two turns instead of the unimp'd silver, but we lose beakers that way, so no reason.

I would like to work 2 grass forests this turn. I welcome other opinions.

You can look at Sommer's SH demonstration or look at the test save yourself, or if anyone really wants the numbers just say so and I can put them up for people to look at.