Religious decay

Dancing Hoskuld

Dancing Hoskuld

Deity
Joined
Jul 5, 2004
Messages
23,562
Location
Canberra, Australia
Beta version attached. Works with RoM (and AND). Config file is in the usersettings folder.

You will need to add the following red line to the Config\Init.xml file to get it to work.

Code: 
	</screen>

[B][COLOR="Red"]	<load mod="Religion Decay"/>
[/COLOR][/B]</bug>

Civic effects on probability of religion decay and popularity of the religion on choice are both working.

To do:-
. State religion decay based on civics
. Fix spread religion event.

No feedback means it is the final version.:mischief:

Spoiler :
I said I would look into JReligionDecay for Hashishim and start a thread. Here it is. Although since it does not need AND I probably should have put it in the RoMmods forum not here.

Hashishim said:
Anyways im not to sure where to put this, i found this thread for requests on what to include, and im nto to sure wether you do have it in your mod or not, but here goes. Can you include this in your next update it basicc changes to python and some are for SDK,. If you have it already on a new dawn let me know. Sorry for troubling:) The Links to the components are there aswell:)

Religion Decay:
This mod's main purpose is providing the chance of religions being removed from cities.
Based on config.ini options and other criteria, each city has a chance each turn to experience
a Turmoil Event, specificly a Religious Turmoil Event. You are able to set the min number of
turns between Turmoil Events, the min number of religions required in the city, the percent
chance of the even happening, and several others.

If all the factors are met then Religious Turmoil strikes your city and a
religion may be removed. As is now Religious Turmoil has no effect other then removing a
religion, but in future versions I am planning to incorporate other negative factors.
Click to expand...
LINK
Click to expand...

I have had a preliminary look at this. It does one thing I am not sure about. It seems to store an integer for each city somewhere using the SDK. I think this is to keep that integer between sessions of Civ of the same game ie it stores the information in the save game file.

Other than that the code is fairly straight forward. Pseudo code:-
Spoiler :

Code: 
Check for religious turmoil:
  if the city has enough religions
    if a random number says its time
       remove a random religion
       reset the counter for the city

Events that cause check:
  • If the city is due (or overdue) for a religious turmoil
  • a religion spreads to the city
  • a religion is founded in the city
State religions can only be removed if it says so in the config file.

It does not remove any religious buildings that belong to the removed religion as far as I can see. It may remove a religion from its holy city which may cause problems
.

Current list of suggestions so far:-
  1. State religion may decay based on config setting (default=no) currently yes
  2. Holy city religion may go based on config setting (default=no) currently yes
  3. Civics affect chance of religious decay (new)
    • Folklore - very low
    • Prophets - low
    • Divine Rule - normal, state religion very low
    • State Church - high, state religion none
    • Free Church - low, state religion very low
    • Intolerant -very high, state religion none
    • Secular - none
    • Athiest - high
  4. religious buildings in city affect which religions may go
    • Holy shrine = religion can't decay in this city
    • for each other reduce chance that this religion decays
  5. popularity of religion affects which religion may decay (new)
  6. if no city has a religion and holy shrine not built should religion disappear completely? (discuss as this is what can happen if the religion goes from the holy city already - although I suppose the normal religion may resurect it.)
  7. Other
    • Losing a war should affect state religion - no idea how or what
    • Can only build the cathedral of your state religion - has effect on the free promotions you can get. (Easily done in the XML.)
    • Secular - none; no :) form temples except state religion - Hasn't this already been done in RoM 2.9 or 2.91? Would need to check that it is so in AAranda's religions also.
    • Needs to scale with game speed. Basically the number of turns between a turmoil event need to scale.

Chance of decay:-
  • None = 0%
  • Very low = 0.25 times normal
  • Low = 0.5 times normal
  • Normal = 25% (current default in config so user can set)
  • High = 1.5 times normal
  • Very high = 2 times normal

@Hashishim, Is this the sort of thing you are after?
 
Yes, you can save data for saves using that method. Revolutions uses it.
 
yep basically. that is it, The holy city thing if will there be a way to like protect the holy city from being strippec from the religion founding:? like a restriction within the code. but yeah anyways thanks for looking at it:p
 
Hashishim said:
Thanks dude for the checking out the religious decay, and yes it is what i wanted.

You mentioned something about the holy city and that can cause a problem, so cant we restrict it from effecting the holy city? like an exception within the code.
Click to expand...

There needs to be some thought given to exactly how the decay will happen. The code in the link was a beta for discussion but never went anywhere. It is easy to make exceptions for holy cities but we also need to think about the various civics in RoM and what effects if any they will have.

and will this modification be part of A New Dawn; or will you have a seperate upload for it?
Click to expand...

No idea at the moment, I need to get some time to work on it rather than just understand it which is where I am at.
 
alright hmmmmm, civics well i guess as afforess told me once we can be creative about it, if for e.g civic for religion is intolerant i think t hats one of them. Then maybe the chance of the religious decay happening can occur at much faster rate? or something like that. it can really simulate like a form of mass religious sect "immigration" if theres liberal or free religion then the rate can be standard, if secular then can perhaps decrease the rate. And if athiesm then for that can also increase the rate. What you think? Is that what you meant about how civics can effect?
 
Hashishim said:
alright hmmmmm, civics well i guess as afforess told me once we can be creative about it, if for e.g civic for religion is intolerant i think t hats one of them. Then maybe the chance of the religious decay happening can occur at much faster rate? or something like that. it can really simulate like a form of mass religious sect "immigration" if theres liberal or free religion then the rate can be standard, if secular then can perhaps decrease the rate. And if athiesm then for that can also increase the rate. What you think? Is that what you meant about how civics can effect?
Click to expand...

Exactly the sort of thing I am thinking on. Also should religious buildings built in the city effect the result? Should it be the least popular religion that goes or should it be a random choice based on the popularity of the religion - if I can get the percentage of pop in the city of that religion.

Suggestions so far:-
  1. State religion may decay based on config setting (default=no)
  2. Holy city religion may go based on config setting (default=no)
  3. Civics affect chance of religious decay
    • Folklore - normal
    • Prophets - normal
    • Divine Rule - normal
    • State Church - state religion (very low chance) others higher chance
    • Free Church - low chance for any religion
    • Intolerant - much higher chance for all non-state religions, no chance for state religion
    • Secular - increased chance all religions, lesser chance for state religion
    • Athiest - increased chance all religions
  4. religious buildings in city affect which religions may go
    • Holy shrine = religion can't decay in this city
    • for each other reduce chance that this religion decays
  5. popularity of religion affects which religion may decay
  6. if no city has a religion and holy shrine not built should religion dissapear completely?

Please note I am not sure I can do all of this in python which is all I am willing to attempt at this time.
 
favorite religion should be defined by state religion of the dominant culture in a city. effects of religious buildings should be disabled if their religions disappears in the city.
 
NBAfan said:
Christianity has lost many wars but has not really decayed.
Click to expand...

Didn't decay, but was divided and divided. And, in the catholic case, it was divided, among other factors, because the church used many non-religious ways to finance its wars.

BTW, schisms are a very interesting topic for a religion mod too, as already was said at these forums.

The Nordic faith, Asatru as I heard here, decayed mainly because they lost wars to christians. At least History Channel said it, I'm repeating it here... :lol:
 
Prophets - normal <-- i think for this one it should increase the rate or likelyhood of it changing based on the dominance of the religion within the civilzation.

as when prophets did come and where around it really converted most of the people around with their belief and to an extent wiped out many of the exisiting religions mostly the ones that where msot domiment within the religion and sometimes the state religion even changed because it wasnt dominant anymore. So will it be poissible for that civic to have that effect and also allow a domino effect within other cities that are closest to it?
I think the domino effect may be a bit to hard or difficult to do but will be cool if it can be done

# if no city has a religion and holy shrine not built should religion dissapear completely? <-- it should but be replaced with like a heritage site or tourist attraction in more modern times. Like for e.g when you to egypt you can go see in the museums and stuf the relics of the religions of the past of ancient egfypt. or for greece same there to. bonus commerce points. and happyness.

And i dont think many may agree, but to simulate modern times perhaps as time progresses and the civ get moder advanced perhaps the decay can happen more towards the religions of the old. Like kemetism and the old naghualism (and i think hellenism is in the game to) can be more chance for those religions to get decay than christianity islam judaism, buddism, hinduism. For like accuracy sake:)
 
as for the civics i think the most early civics should support having many religions thus the decay chance should be low. this is historically not wrong since in the ancient there were many many different local religions and there was complete religious tolerance.

while the later civics that already represent an organized church which also means that these churches have more power and thus will more likely try to get rid of concurrence religions with intolerant being most dangerous for non state religions.

i think that the secular civic could allow have a low chance of religions to disappear but should instead have the property to deactivate some effects form religious buildings. the reasoning is simple. in a secular society the chruches have low power and are unable to fight each other effectively. at the other hand many people seem to drift away form religions so the effects of buildings should decrease. but small religious groups have a good chance of surviving in a secular society. however they most probably won't grow either.

to summarize my suggestion:
  • Folklore - low
  • Prophets - low
  • Divine Rule - high, state religion: very low
  • State Church - high, state religion: none
  • Free Church - normal, state religion: low
  • Intolerant - very high, state religion: none
  • Secular - none; no :) form temples except state religion
  • Atheist - high
 
Hashishim said:
as when prophets did come and where around it really converted most of the people around with their belief and to an extent wiped out many of the exisiting religions mostly the ones that where msot domiment within the religion and sometimes the state religion even changed because it wasnt dominant anymore.
Click to expand...
I thought prophets had a tendancy to move there select group elsewhere. Moses had little effect on the religion of Egypt for example. Similarly for the many religious groups that moved from the old world to the new or from the US east to the west.

Killtech said:
as for the civics i think the most early civics should support having many religions thus the decay chance should be low. this is historically not wrong since in the ancient there were many many different local religions and there was complete religious tolerance.

while the later civics that already represent an organized church which also means that these churches have more power and thus will more likely try to get rid of concurrence religions with intolerant being most dangerous for non state religions.

i think that the secular civic could allow have a low chance of religions to disappear but should instead have the property to deactivate some effects form religious buildings. the reasoning is simple. in a secular society the chruches have low power and are unable to fight each other effectively. at the other hand many people seem to drift away form religions so the effects of buildings should decrease. but small religious groups have a good chance of surviving in a secular society. however they most probably won't grow either.

to summarize my suggestion:
  • Folklore - low
  • Prophets - low
  • Divine Rule - high, state religion: very low
  • State Church - high, state religion: none
  • Free Church - normal, state religion: low
  • Intolerant - very high, state religion: none
  • Secular - none; no :) form temples except state religion
  • Atheist - high
Click to expand...

Mostly agree, except for divine rule. I think that with this one the organised church is only for the rich and the poor just kept on going with their religion. There is evidence for this from all over and didn't the Catholic church start replacing old/local gods with similar saints so the masses would still have their special days. The Armarna period in Egypt is also a good example. perhaps I should reread what Zappara has in the pedia to see what these actually mean in RoM. ;)

One other ting I was thinking about on a related topic was that you should only be able to build cathederal buildings for your state religion.
 
divine rule was the only one i was not sure what that should be. i assumed some kind of theocracy, a priest-king , a god-emperor state. so i agree on your disagreement then.

good point about the cathedrals.
 
I tried the code "as is" and it works OK but does not have any code in it to scale it to the game speed. In my quick test I lost the religion from its holy city :(.
 
NBAfan said:
Except the Catholics do not worship the Saints.
Click to expand...
Didn't say they did. Basically they found (or invented) a saint with a similar field, e.g. a poet, and then hold a better "party/mass" on the same day as the locals would have celibrated the god! Showing how the saint of the same name served God and so forth.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
Didn't say they did. Basically they found (or invented) a saint with a similar field, e.g. a poet, and then hold a better "party/mass" on the same day as the locals would have celibrated the god! Showing how the saint of the same name served God and so forth.
Click to expand...
I guess you could see it that way. The Church did not just make up people though, they were real.:)
 
I have updated the first post with the current suggestions. Is it worth me putting up an "as is" version suitable for RoM for people to try out?

NBAfan said:
I guess you could see it that way. The Church did not just make up people though, they were real.:)
Click to expand...

Sorry, I am used to using arguments to stimulate discussion and learning about their religion to my Catholic friend's children. He does the same back re protestants so we have fun and the kids learn to discuss.
 
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