Is the Steam DRM just a one-time verification check? Or is it much more?

mossmonster · May 12, 2010

Let's look at the title questions:

Is the Steam DRM just a one-time verification check? Or is it much more?

Please correct me, and add a link for verification, if you believe any of my answers are incorrect.

- After the initial Civ5 DRM verification is completed can I remove Steam from my computer? No

- After I have started a game of Civ5 can I turn Steam off? No

- Does Steam differentiate between single-player vs multi-player or offline vs online? In other words can even I play a single-player offline game without Steam being required to start and constantly monitor my actions? No

- Additional cost game content is already being offered, a Babylonian civ and a Mesopotamia map, and DLC is promised. Can some corporate guy decide that an independent game mod or content, from any source, is too similar to the official paid content and ban it? Yes

- Can the Steam program be updated (when you connect to Steam, upload a patch, etc) to include a check for banned mods/content? Yes

- Because Steam is required to start and constantly run while playing Civ5, can it prevent me from playing with the now-banned mods/content in my game? Yes

Please refrain from personal attacks, flames and name-calling as that hinders constructive discussion.

Edited to add comment from 2K Elizabeth:

2K Elizabeth said:
This is, indeed, true. Steam will be used with Civ V and you will have to run it when you play the game, but it won't prevent you from playing mods - we're not interested in limiting you guys. We are using the system to get you guys to connect together and find content easily, to have updates conveniently, to have a system that doesn't require a DVD... Steam is all of those things.

Chalks · May 12, 2010

*EDIT* for those who are new to this debate, here is the context of the paranoid rant that provoked this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9181884&postcount=15
It won't matter where you downloaded the mods from, the gigantic corporation still decides if you are allowed to play the game at all with the mods you have.

Steam is required to start and run while you play Civ5. It doesn't matter if you play SP or MP, online or offline - Steam will be there watching you. If the corporation decides you have a mod they don't like all they have to do is update their Steam monitoring program to not allow you to play until you remove the content that offends them.

Posted here because people who missed the first thread may be confused as to what I'm talking about. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Steam does not monitor your actions in game beyond what Firaxis tell it to monitor for integration purposes.

Steam does not require an internet connection beyond the initial activation.

Steam cannot be used to prevent you from playing with any particular mods.

The only thing that can prevent you from playing with particular mods is Civilization 5, and this is only possible if Firaxis explicitly write code for this.

The conspiracy you are attempting to make up has nothing to do with Steam what so ever.

CivilizedTiger · May 12, 2010

Chalks said:
Steam cannot be used to prevent you from playing with any particular mods.

... except, of course, if Valve decides to terminate your account, as they have already done to some (although admittedly VERY rarely and supposedly for good reason - although I wonder whether any reason is good enough to stop you from enjoying, at least offline, something you've payed for)

But anyway, I for one buy my games because I consider it the right thing to do, not because of legal reasons, and Valve terminating my account, should it ever happen, will not stop me from enjoying a game I've payed for.

So having this in mind, I have less of a problem with Steam policies.
But I do think you should tell the whole truth, if you're going to clarify about Steam.

The_Coyote · May 12, 2010

mossmonster said:
Is the Steam DRM just a one-time verification check?

Can´t be, because you have to accept the Steam subscriber agreement (SSA), which means as long as you don´t cancel your account and still play civ5 - even in offline mode - your are forced to check possible changes (after you received them, eg through the email account you provided while creating the account) of the SSA and accept them to further legaly play the game.

So as long as you want to play civ5 and it require Steam you have also a contract with Valve which you have to obey. One time verification imo sounds different, because it lacks the long term contract character.

Chalks · May 12, 2010

CivilizedTiger said:
... except, of course, if Valve decides to terminate your account, as they have already done to some (although admittedly VERY rarely and supposedly for good reason - although I wonder whether any reason is good enough to stop you from enjoying, at least offline, something you've payed for)

That is certainly true, but the OP isn't trying to imply this - he's saying that Valve are going to selectively disable mods that they disagree with for political reasons.

mossmonster · May 12, 2010

Chalks said:
Steam does not monitor your actions in game beyond what Firaxis tell it to monitor for integration purposes.

Steam does not require an internet connection beyond the initial activation.

Steam cannot be used to prevent you from playing with any particular mods.

The only thing that can prevent you from playing with particular mods is Civilization 5, and this is only possible if Firaxis explicitly write code for this.

I am seeking facts, not opinions. Please read the OP:

mossmonster said:
Please correct me, and add a link for verification, if you believe any of my answers are incorrect.

Chalks said:
The conspiracy you are attempting to make up has nothing to do with Steam what so ever.

Flames are not welcome here. Please read the OP:

mossmonster said:
Please refrain from personal attacks, flames and name-calling as that hinders constructive discussion.

tom2050 · May 12, 2010

The conspiracy you are attempting to make up has nothing to do with Steam what so ever.

We do not know what Firaxis tells it to monitor for integration purposes. No one but Steam and Firaxis know this.

Steam could be monitoring your every keystroke, and relaying the information elsewhere without your knowledge. Millions of users could be infected and need help.

In fact, something like this may be happening since they could just use Steam for registration when you need to upgrade, instead of a draconian requirement that MAKES you log in to 3rd party system that systematically watches your every move.

In fact, undercover Steam agents (I wonder who is one of these?) are watching you right now.

:cool:

CivilizedTiger · May 12, 2010

Actually, you telling him to read part of your op which you've written with moderator colour is more disrespectful and "flameful" than anything he's said to you.

mossmonster · May 12, 2010

Chalks said:
That is certainly true, but the OP isn't trying to imply this - he's saying that Valve are going to selectively disable mods that they disagree with for political reasons.

Thanks for your interpretation but I never said that. Please read the OP:

mossmonster said:
- Additional cost game content is already being offered, a Babylonian civ and a Mesopotamia map, and DLC is promised. Can some corporate guy decide that an independent game mod or content, from any source, is too similar to the official paid content and ban it? Yes

tom2050 · May 12, 2010

Chalks said:
That is certainly true, but the OP isn't trying to imply this - he's saying that Valve are going to selectively disable mods that they disagree with for political reasons.

The only person that has said political in this whole thread was from your statement. Please refrain from vicious attacks and assaults on other users, and please stick to facts, like I did in my above post.

Chalks · May 12, 2010

mossmonster considers anything he disagrees with to be a flame.

I would love to know how saying that your conspiracy has nothing to do with Steam is a flame.

For the uninitiated, here is the paranoid rant that provoked this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9181884&postcount=15
It won't matter where you downloaded the mods from, the gigantic corporation still decides if you are allowed to play the game at all with the mods you have.

Steam is required to start and run while you play Civ5. It doesn't matter if you play SP or MP, online or offline - Steam will be there watching you. If the corporation decides you have a mod they don't like all they have to do is update their Steam monitoring program to not allow you to play until you remove the content that offends them.

You're not backing out of that garbage this easily mossmonster.

mossmonster · May 12, 2010

CivilizedTiger said:
Actually, you telling him to read part of your op which you've written with moderator colour is more disrespectful and "flameful" than anything he's said to you.

Fair point and I did consider if using red was allowed or not. If a mod decides the use of red is inappropriate then please accept my apology and change it to some other color.

The reason I posted that is because Chalks has flamed dozens of threads and been repeated warned and continues to ignore the mods requests that he change his behavior. As I don't want him to ruin this thread too I attempted to make my comment as visible as possible. Even then it did no good as his flames continue.

Shurdus · May 12, 2010

Chalks said:
mossmonster considers anything he disagrees with to be a flame.

I would love to know how saying that your conspiracy has nothing to do with Steam is a flame.

For the uninitiated, here is the paranoid rant that provoked this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9181884&postcount=15
It won't matter where you downloaded the mods from, the gigantic corporation still decides if you are allowed to play the game at all with the mods you have.

Steam is required to start and run while you play Civ5. It doesn't matter if you play SP or MP, online or offline - Steam will be there watching you. If the corporation decides you have a mod they don't like all they have to do is update their Steam monitoring program to not allow you to play until you remove the content that offends them.

You're not backing out of that garbage this easily mossmonster.

Bwahaha. I lolled at that rant. Priceless. :king:

tom2050 · May 12, 2010

Chalks said:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9181884&postcount=15
It won't matter where you downloaded the mods from, the gigantic corporation still decides if you are allowed to play the game at all with the mods you have.

Steam is required to start and run while you play Civ5. It doesn't matter if you play SP or MP, online or offline - Steam will be there watching you. If the corporation decides you have a mod they don't like all they have to do is update their Steam monitoring program to not allow you to play until you remove the content that offends them.

You're not backing out of that garbage this easily mossmonster.

But Chalks, that all could be true, and probably is true... after all, just as you said:

Steam does not monitor your actions in game beyond what Firaxis tell it to monitor for integration purposes.

We do not know what Firaxis is telling it to monitor, it could be monitoring everything! Or nothing... No one knows, therefore there is no way for you to know either... unless you are a Steam employee.

Chalks · May 12, 2010

Shurdus said:
Bwahaha. I lolled at that rant. Priceless.

Gonna go edit that into my initial reply so that people don't get confused.

Chalks · May 12, 2010

tom2050 said:
But Chalks, that all could be true, and probably is true... after all, just as you said:

Steam does not monitor your actions in game beyond what Firaxis tell it to monitor for integration purposes.

We do not know what Firaxis is telling it to monitor, it could be monitoring everything! Or nothing... No one knows, therefore there is no way for you to know either... unless you are a Steam employee.

That's entirely true. They could be doing all sorts of stuff.

Tell you what, start a thread on how we shouldn't buy Firaxis games because they could be doing all sorts of monitoring and stuff. Let me know how it goes.

CivilizedTiger · May 12, 2010

Assuming that Valve will use the control it gets in any reprehensible way is preposterous.
Disliking the control, more or less by principle, is rather good, imo.

mossmonster · May 12, 2010

Chalks said:
mossmonster considers anything he disagrees with to be a flame.

I would love to know how saying that your conspiracy has nothing to do with Steam is a flame.

Couldn't you post without the name-calling? Why would you use the provocative phase "conspiracy" except in an attempt to demean my comments, insult me, and/or provoke a flame-war?

Chalks said:
For the uninitiated, here is the paranoid rant that provoked this thread:

I highlighted the flame in case you missed it.

Flames are not welcome here. Please read the OP:

mossmonster said:
Please refrain from personal attacks, flames and name-calling as that hinders constructive discussion.

Chalks said:
You're not backing out of that garbage this easily mossmonster.

I have no desire to back out of any statement I made. You flamed that old thread you referenced and got it locked. That's why I had to move the hopefully civilized conversation here.

Here's a repeat for you:

mossmonster said:
Please correct me, and add a link for verification, if you believe any of my answers are incorrect.

Chalks · May 12, 2010

CivilizedTiger said:
Assuming that Valve will use the control it gets in any reprehensible way is preposterous.
Disliking the control, more or less by principle, is rather good, imo.

I have to say I do like your attitude on this subject. Disarmingly reasonable to such a degree that I cannot fault you.

Are you going to be missing out on Civ 5 because of Steam? This would be an upsetting prospect.

Chalks · May 12, 2010

mossmonster said:
Couldn't you post without the name-calling? Why would you use the provocative phase "conspiracy" except in an attempt to demean my comments, insult me, and/or provoke a flame-war?

If you go check out the definition of a conspiracy you will certainly find it fitting for what you are saying.

mossmonster said:
I highlighted the flame in case you missed it.

It is paranoid and it is a rant. It's a completely apt description.

mossmonster said:
Flames are not welcome here. Please read the OP

You're not a mod, get over it. If someone tells me I am not allowed to call you paranoid then I shall inquire as to how I should correctly address someone posting from a position of irrational paranoia, but until then, I'm going to keep on going.

You are claiming that something is being done that there is no evidence for. The burden of proof is not on me, it is on you. It is impossible to prove a negative.

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