Ranged combat? WTF?! Can someone please explain...

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Davor

Prince
Joined
May 18, 2003
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542
Can someone please explain to me how cannons can fire 2 hexes away and modern units in the 21st century can only fire 2 hexes away as well? Am I missing something here, or do we have to wait for more to be explained?

I can't see how cannons can fire so far away in the first place, I thought they were very short range compared to other instruments of war.
 
It's a game and they programmed it that way, mayhap?
 
astrognash said:
It's a game and they programmed it that way, mayhap?
Click to expand...
Yes but why did they program it that way? Guess it's the same old story of Spear vs Tanks :lol:


Skwink Caesar said:
We can't make everything we make perfect.
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Well lots of people ask for a bit more realism in each edtion of Civ, so you would think after 20 years (is it been 20 years now for Civ?) and the 5th incarnation of Civ, the makers, and Sid himself would know how to add some more realism a bit more in Civ now. Again as above, I think most people are getting upset with the Spear vs Tank scenario and this problem would have been eliminated by now. :spear:
 
Davor said:
Yes but why did they program it that way? Guess it's the same old story of Spear vs Tanks :lol:




Well lots of people ask for a bit more realism in each edtion of Civ, so you would think after 20 years (is it been 20 years now for Civ?) and the 5th incarnation of Civ, the makers, and Sid himself would know how to add some more realism a bit more in Civ now. Again as above, I think most people are getting upset with the Spear vs Tank scenario and this problem would have been eliminated by now. :spear:
Click to expand...

If you want 100% realism, join the Army....
 
Davor said:
Well lots of people ask for a bit more realism in each edtion of Civ, so you would think after 20 years (is it been 20 years now for Civ?) and the 5th incarnation of Civ, the makers, and Sid himself would know how to add some more realism a bit more in Civ now.
Click to expand...

You could also look at it the other way:

Lots of people have asked for more realism in each edition of Civ, so you would think after 20 years and five incarnations of the game that people would know that the creators--and Sid himself--aren't going to add it.
 
Or, you could look at it like this: They would rather the units to behave realistically with regards to each other (ie: they mimic their actual roles in battle), than with regards to the map.

The units do behave realistically - in their most relevant context: simulating battles.
 
Thyrwyn said:
Or, you could look at it like this: They would rather the units to behave realistically with regards to each other (ie: they mimic their actual roles in battle), than with regards to the map.

The units do behave realistically - in their most relevant context: simulating battles.
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But then sometimes the modern artillery could fire over the whole map, and then the people would again cry.
 
Davor said:
Can someone please explain to me how cannons can fire 2 hexes away and modern units in the 21st century can only fire 2 hexes away as well? Am I missing something here, or do we have to wait for more to be explained?

I can't see how cannons can fire so far away in the first place, I thought they were very short range compared to other instruments of war.
Click to expand...



You are missing something, the MLRS are firing from 3 hexes away.
 
I've always attributed medieval and modern units having similar ranges to the scale of the battle. In medieval times, units did tend to fight very close together, so the 'battlefield' as we see it on the map is scaled up a lot and shorter range archers bombarding a unit 2 hexes away makes sense. However, post-gunpowder units tended to spread out more, hence a smaller scale is used on the map and so muskets/rifles etc. can effectively fire 0 tiles away instead of the 2 tiles for archers. Therefore, although artillery can fire further away than an archer in terms of raw disctance, scaling issues mean that it is still only able to bombard the same number of tiles away (give or take a couple).
 
Toddy said:


You are missing something, the MLRS are firing from 3 hexes away.
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Ah so they are. I guess so use to having things not change much, never really noticed this.

Then this is a good sign, something finally different in Civ combat I was getting tired of the ping pong ball combat system.
 
logarithm64 said:
I've always attributed medieval and modern units having similar ranges to the scale of the battle. In medieval times, units did tend to fight very close together, so the 'battlefield' as we see it on the map is scaled up a lot and shorter range archers bombarding a unit 2 hexes away makes sense. However, post-gunpowder units tended to spread out more, hence a smaller scale is used on the map and so muskets/rifles etc. can effectively fire 0 tiles away instead of the 2 tiles for archers. Therefore, although artillery can fire further away than an archer in terms of raw disctance, scaling issues mean that it is still only able to bombard the same number of tiles away (give or take a couple).
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The problem with that is that Rifles can be fighting with/against archers.

There might be limitiations (bows/early siege can't bombard gunpowder units).. I'd prefer if gunpowder units (at least Rifles and above) had a weak bombard that was nonetheless stronger than archers.
 
There might be limitiations (bows/early siege can't bombard gunpowder units).. I'd prefer if gunpowder units (at least Rifles and above) had a weak bombard that was nonetheless stronger than archers.
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I seem to remember some certain people insisting vehemently that all gunpowder/firearms units would have bombardment attacks, and that I was a fool for thinking that only siege and support units (and naval/air) were likely to have bombardment ranged attacks.
Know any of those people, by any chance?

Saying now "oh, well maybe the archers aren't able to bombard gunpowder units" is desperate grasping at straws. Does it really seem likely that you can bombard some units but not others?
 
Ahriman said:
I seem to remember some certain people insisting vehemently that all gunpowder/firearms units would have bombardment attacks, and that I was a fool for thinking that only siege and support units (and naval/air) were likely to have bombardment ranged attacks.
Know any of those people, by any chance?
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Yes, the 'would' was hopeful, the real point was Should. (I shouldn't have been hopeful that they would actually have a game without glaring flaws)
Ahriman said:
Saying now "oh, well maybe the archers aren't able to bombard gunpowder units" is desperate grasping at straws. Does it really seem likely that you can bombard some units but not others?
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No it doesn't, hence the problem.... what happens when my Riflemen or Tanks even are getting bombarded By Archers/Catapults?

They don't even have any opportunity to bombard back???

Especially since they have separate Regular+Bombard Strength... Riflemen should have a Bombard Strength at least equal to the Bombard Strength of say Longbows... Tanks should be able to bombard with a strength equal to Catapults.

This way their role in Combat would not change much, but they would be able to ignore such things.


Another possibility is they could fire back.. Notice bombarded units are always listed as having a Str of 0 (because they don't fire back) Perhaps Some units would have Str when bombardedby certain other units... ie Gunpowder units get to use their Str to 'shoot back' when bombarded by Archers/Early siege..

Archers/Early siege can still attack the Gunpowder/Tank units from a range of 2 but it acts like a regular combat instead of a bombardment (let the Archer/Early siege use its bombard strength, but they take counter fire).
 
what happens when my Riflemen or Tanks even are getting bombarded By Archers/Catapults?
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Then you take minimal damage from the low strength bombardment and shrug it off, laugh, and annihilate the player who has such pathetically obsolete units.

Its a minor inconsistency that will rarely come up in practice.
 
Ahriman said:
Then you take minimal damage from the low strength bombardment and shrug it off, laugh, and annihilate the player who has such pathetically obsolete units.

Its a minor inconsistency that will rarely come up in practice.
Click to expand...

See Spear v. Tank,
you will have weakened riflemen getting killed by archer bombardment (assuming bombard can kill) You wil have positions that those archers can continue to bombard from, because the rifles can't reach them, etc.
 
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