Malakim Woes - The Flood Plains

Firstly I'd like to start with a hello and greetings! A friend recently turned my attention to the Wildmana Mod (I being already an avid Civ player) and I've logged quite a surprising (or embarrassing) amount of game time in the past week and a half or so.

After trying out a handful of the civs, I've settled on the Malakim as a favorite to play. With as much time as I've logged with the Malakim, the one thing that strikes me as troublesome is the continual disease in the cities. A quick looksie around would show that the disease comes largely from the vast surrounding Flood Plains that is often hard to counteract, (often requiring Medicine/Herbalist with Reagents/Salt, if not more) and is only harder to deal with on higher difficulties or with larger cities.

Now, being a desert anchored and desert flavored civ, it seems logical (to me at least) that there'd be some sort of counterbalance to the Flood Plains so that it is not a requirement for the Malakim to always have a plentiful supply of +Health resources/buildings/techs. While I am not savvy in the ways of modifying Civ (let alone modifying a modifcation to a modification to Civ ) it appears it would be simple to implement something with the Malakim to counteract the Flood Plains disease counter. Off the top of my head I've thought up the following...

• Have the 'Children of the Desert' tech reduce the amount of disease caused by Flood Plains by 25/50%.
• Have the 'Children of the Desert' tech cause Oasis tiles to provide an additional +1/+2 Health.
• Farms built on Flood Plains provide +1 Health / Reduce disease on the tile they're built on.
• Herbalist buildings provides +2 Health with Incease and/or +2/3 Health with Regeants.
• Camels provide +1 Health with Pasture.

However! If healthy discussion breeds a new idea, I assume that's what this thread is for.

Salutations for the modmod, enjoying it heartily so! Happy gaming!
/salute
~NoDebate

I don't know anyway if this automatic terraforming is fitting. How do they do such a complex terraform without any knowledge about magic and why are they destroying all the fertile land around them and with it all the life in it? I think it would be better to show their ability to survive under the harshest conditions instead of having them the most food of all civs.

The automatic terraforming also brings up an interesting point, if you build on a river, it almost always forces you into Flood Plains.

However, to not deviate from your comment, is the automatic terraforming not meant to force the Malakim into a desert? Similar to how it forces the Mazatl into a jungle. Both civs are heavily dependent and integrated into their various climates which is why it strikes me that they don't have some way to rid of disease early game.

Also, do the Mazatl suffer negative health effects from the jungle and deep jungle? I may have to test this here shortly.

Imuratep said:

I think it would be better to show their ability to survive under the harshest conditions instead of having them the most food of all civs.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'd prefer that, too: I'd like to see civ that can be great *despite* living in the desert more than because of the desert. A few special desert-based advantages, but generally they'd be happy to see some trees and water.

Other than that I generally like the WM Malakim.

I like desert combat and move boni, the trade route thing (which I think very cool), and I'd toss in a priest xp bonus based on desert tiles around a city. Backstory-wise there could be some tension between the old desert cities of the Faithful and the new, lush, but less-religious settlements outside the starting area.

As for the OP: I say thank the desert for her grandmotherly kindness.

Also: The Scions want their Bazaar back, and will come for it soon!

NoDebate said:

After trying out a handful of the civs, I've settled on the Malakim as a favorite to play. With as much time as I've logged with the Malakim, the one thing that strikes me as troublesome is the continual disease in the cities. A quick looksie around would show that the disease comes largely from the vast surrounding Flood Plains that is often hard to counteract, (often requiring Medicine/Herbalist with Reagents/Salt, if not more) and is only harder to deal with on higher difficulties or with larger cities.

Now, being a desert anchored and desert flavored civ, it seems logical (to me at least) that there'd be some sort of counterbalance to the Flood Plains so that it is not a requirement for the Malakim to always have a plentiful supply of +Health resources/buildings/techs. While I am not savvy in the ways of modifying Civ (let alone modifying a modifcation to a modification to Civ ) it appears it would be simple to implement something with the Malakim to counteract the Flood Plains disease counter. Off the top of my head I've thought up the following...

• Have the 'Children of the Desert' tech reduce the amount of disease caused by Flood Plains by 25/50%.
• Have the 'Children of the Desert' tech cause Oasis tiles to provide an additional +1/+2 Health.
• Farms built on Flood Plains provide +1 Health / Reduce disease on the tile they're built on.
• Herbalist buildings provides +2 Health with Incease and/or +2/3 Health with Regeants.
• Camels provide +1 Health with Pasture.

However! If healthy discussion breeds a new idea, I assume that's what this thread is for.

Salutations for the modmod, enjoying it heartily so! Happy gaming!
/salute
~NoDebate

Click to expand...

Do they not receive less unhealth from floodplains than other civs? Or did Wild Mana not implement that?

In RifE, flood plains give far less unhealth for the Malakim, though it's still granting unhealth; +0.20 , to be exact. We also have Oases granting an additional +0.5 , an extra food, and an extra commerce.

Imuratep said:

I don't know anyway if this automatic terraforming is fitting. How do they do such a complex terraform without any knowledge about magic and why are they destroying all the fertile land around them and with it all the life in it? I think it would be better to show their ability to survive under the harshest conditions instead of having them the most food of all civs.

Click to expand...

I'm coming around to agreeing with that... It's going to be removed in RifE. However, that will wait till 1.4, when we have our own improvements to the magic system. Posted some of my plans for that in this forum a few days before Sephi announced his own.

Tarquelne said:

Yeah, I'd prefer that, too: I'd like to see civ that can be great *despite* living in the desert more than because of the desert. A few special desert-based advantages, but generally they'd be happy to see some trees and water.

Other than that I generally like the WM Malakim.

I like desert combat and move boni, the trade route thing (which I think very cool), and I'd toss in a priest xp bonus based on desert tiles around a city. Backstory-wise there could be some tension between the old desert cities of the Faithful and the new, lush, but less-religious settlements outside the starting area.

As for the OP: I say thank the desert for her grandmotherly kindness.

Also: The Scions want their Bazaar back, and will come for it soon!

Click to expand...

Honestly, the main reason I moved Malakim+ in the way I did (not terribly familiar with WM's implementation, using mine as a result) was because I lacked the ability to do what I truly wanted. I'm strongly considering going back and revisiting them now.

Basically, what I wanted to do was enhance trade routes based on the number of desert tiles around a city. Not just have a desert tile grant a trade route, but have it grant +x% Food/Hammers from trade. Probably do this via building, just to make it easiest to adapt for other civs (Lanun, for example, or even Khazad with Hills). Back then I could barely use python. Now, I could do that pretty easily I believe.

So I would do it this way:

• No more autoterraform.
• Weakened Bedouin Improvements; No fourth improvement, lower overall yields.
• No more extra food from Oases; Extra health would stay (and be increased, but that's for a different reason)
• Make the mounted units cleaner; Not sure how to do that yet, don't really want to say they are limited to Camel units.
• New building granting trade based on desert around the city. This encourages you to settle in the desert, but does not require you do so.

good ideas Valk, but that doesn't belong in this thread at all, stop stealing the spotlight with your really-far-away-in-the-future versions

back to the topic, I wholeheartedly agree with the opening post and its suggestions to the issue. welcome to CFC NoDebate!

If something is to be done, I'd prefer a new building or two over blanket fixes.

Perhaps: "Sweet Water Well", available very early (Masonry too late?) that gives one or two health.

And then "Municipal Plumbing" ("Chain Pump"? "Flood Controls"?), requires Copper, and either gives some Health or cancels-out quite a bit of Flood Plain Unhealth.

(IIRC our real-world Malakim, the ancient Egyptians, relied heavily on both wells and copper plumbing systems for drinking water.)


OTOH, to expand on the from yesterday:

I don't like the idea of identifying a civ's weak points and then adding/changing things to remove them. Not without further cause.

I doubt the play balance issue needs discussing, so I'll move on to the aesthetic:

Personally, differences in play between civs is my primary reason for enjoying FFH, and I think flaws are more valuable than strengths in creating such differences. Probably just because they're usually more subtle or indirect. Every civ has clear advantages it tries to maximize. They're often features explicitly included for the civ. Disadvantages, OTOH, are more often "emergent" qualities with less significant (or just "obvious") effects.

I'm not trying to say this is more than a matter of taste. But, as such things go, I think it's an important one. For the Scions, for example, I took the trouble to add Unhealth issues. I didn't like the fact they could completely ignore Health. Yeah: I did something against the whole civ's general design and made them a little *more* like other civs in one way. All to give them a disadvantage.

So unless a problem needing fixing, like a play-balance issue, I don't think the Malakim's health problems should be tinkered with. They're supposed to be great traders? Good, make them trade for the Health resources they want.

[to_xp]Gekko;9359424 said:

good ideas Valk, but that doesn't belong in this thread at all, stop stealing the spotlight with your really-far-away-in-the-future versions

back to the topic, I wholeheartedly agree with the opening post and its suggestions to the issue. welcome to CFC NoDebate!

Click to expand...

Actually, it rather does seeing as it's ideas for what to do with the Malakim. Which is what this thread is, no? If you notice, my version says nothing about buildings granting health, or removing unhealth from floodplains completely (took some away to allow you decent starts).

I agree with Tarq completely here, though.... There should be weaknesses. In my current version, that's more a lack of hammers than a dearth of health, but same principle: Weaknesses force you to change your strategy, to play the game differently, FAR more so than strengths.

Keep in mind that flood plains are "balanced" by, well, giving +1 food... So at worst, if you have no surplus health, they're equal to grasslands...

As for the Malakim, I've posted my thoughts in a couple of threads, but to reiterate, +1 exp for disciple units/desert tile and/or +1 science/desert tile from desert shrine, reworked terraforming (an improved version of spring to water III, water walking to water I, nerfed water elemental to water II would be an easy solution), special desert resources for Malakim (dates, camels etc...) and +1 food from oasis with sanitation.

The Malakim are probably the stongest civ from an economic standpoint, and pump out technology like there is no tomorrow. Their weakness is production, which is very poor.

The only "fix" the Malakim need, IMO, is to their production. But then, you would have an unbalanced civ.

Part of the challenge in playing as the Malakim is dealing with the "early" unhealthiness. But this is really only a speed bump (which is needed for balancing as mentioned by others). You just have to adjust your strategy to incorporate more "healthy" buildings and using the Agraranism civic, for example. Some of these items are less needed by other Civs, and may not be used as much in those specific strategies. Like the other "non" traditional civs, it takes a "non" traditional approach, and may take a few games to design a new strategy that fits both the civ and your personal play style.

I agree.

I'm playing (not malakim, but luirchips)... on a full desert island + full floodplains.
High potential growth but high unhealthyness... few health ressources. And no Malakim's commerce bonus !

You have to develop in a different way.
it's fun.

Correct me if i'm wrong... but the unhealth from a floodplain is irrelevant once you work a couple of them... The two differences between a grassland and a floodplain are +1 and +1/2. So each worked floodplain offsets it's own . It may not look pretty on overland view, all those green swirls, but gamewise the floodplain penalty is negatable and easily swept aside completely with some health buildings or some health resources.

The only time it is really annoying is in your first city when it is below pop 5 orso. For that I'd say, it would be a good thing to have some way to get around that. And there are, and they are already integrated in the Mala: health mana and expansive trait to name two....

Personally I think the floodplain penalty is very much needed for the mala. They are a powerhouse if played right, and eliminating it completely would just make them even stronger, especially early game which effects the whole game. Now at least the player/AI has to work on it to deal with it.

Unit Grouping Error
There is an error when grouping units together when playing Malakim. Even though all of the units will move two through the desert, if you group more than one of them together, they will try to move only one square at a time.

Health Fix
I think there should be a new resource; an herb found in the desert, which could have a fancy name or just simply be "desert herbs." Anyone should get a +1 health from these herbs and be able to use them, but the Malakim should have a specialized herbalist that gains +2 health from them.

Desert Economy
There is a lot of land that you can't do anything with but put a workshop on. Why not add a specialized improvement called "Desert Trading Post" that only Malakim (and any other desert-based civilization) could use. You would be limited to building only three desert trading posts. Each one would provide 4 gold in the plot. One of the three would provide +2 culture to the city working the plot, one of the three would provide +2 food, and the last would provide +2 health.

PhoenixMuse said:

Unit Grouping Error
There is an error when grouping units together when playing Malakim. Even though all of the units will move two through the desert, if you group more than one of them together, they will try to move only one square at a time.

Click to expand...

Phoenix,

Are any of these units "hidden nationality"? I sometimes forget that units built in a city with the Council of Esus in it, that they will be made with Hidden Nationality "on" instead of "off", and i will spend a couple of minutes trying to group them before i remember to think about the HN.

This is why I have suggested that all Esus built units be coded to have HN in the off position as a default...... sometimes one can get so wrapped up in a game, they dont think of the little things like this.

graywarden said:

Phoenix,

Are any of these units "hidden nationality"? I sometimes forget that units built in a city with the Council of Esus in it, that they will be made with Hidden Nationality "on" instead of "off", and i will spend a couple of minutes trying to group them before i remember to think about the HN.

This is why I have suggested that all Esus built units be coded to have HN in the off position as a default...... sometimes one can get so wrapped up in a game, they dont think of the little things like this.

Click to expand...

Some of them may be; and I have noticed that issue with other civilizations, but it seems to be the case with grouping any and all units while playing Malakim. Perhaps I should check.

I do agree that HN should be off by default. It's really annoying to have open borders and have a 'friend' come along and kill your HN units in your city without you ever realizing what's going on until several of them are dead.

I don't think it's related to HN, the problem is the same with elves in forests or dwarves in hills. The pathfinding will show one tile per trun, but when actually moving they correctly move two tiles.

Silaor said:

I don't think it's related to HN, the problem is the same with elves in forests or dwarves in hills. The pathfinding will show one tile per trun, but when actually moving they correctly move two tiles.

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And/Or a combination of the two, I have seen some of the path finding difficulties too.

The problem with the pathfinding is that if you have a unit that has move 1 and an other unit that has cost 1 to walk into desert it will think that all uniot will pay 1 movepoint and will not get further.

i.e. It looks at greatest movement cost and least movement when calculating path.

When you play with the elves, they all have double movement in forest you know