[Bug] Golden age and GP selection

I had 5 GP stacked in Cuzco : 2 GS, 1 GA, 1 GE, 1 GM
I wanted to start my 2nd golden age by sacrificing 1 GS and 1 GA.

I selected both and pushed the button.
Then ALL my GP disappeared and 2 golden ages were started.

My strategy is now totally broken (GE and GM were spared for Corporations).

Questions :
1) How can I avoid this ?
2) I saved the game just before. Can I take back my game and submit it to the the HoF ?

I know what you're talking, bro; it happened to me once. What I do is isolating the GP(s) in question from the others, then select it (them) and trigger the golden age.

Are you sure it was a BUG?, perhaps you selected them all while being convinced selecting the GA and GS.

You can't take it back if you're submitting for HOF purposes. It's more of a design error than a bug.

shyuhe said:

You can't take it back if you're submitting for HOF purposes. It's more of a design error than a bug.

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what is the difference between a design error and a bug?

Are you saying that the game is performing as designed in this case?

Yes, like Tachywaxon said you should move your GA-target 2 GPs from other (1 tile is enough) and put it on the same tile. After it you can select any of these 2 GPs and launch GA. Second GP from this tile is always used for GA.
But I doubt the moderators will allow you to reload your game... sorry.

mushroomshirt said:

what is the difference between a design error and a bug?

Are you saying that the game is performing as designed in this case?

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The game is performing as it was coded and designed, but with unintended consequences. The coders probably didn't think of the situation with multiple eligible great people on a single tile, so you get the silly auto-triggering phenomenon. Perhaps it's just semantics.

Thx for answer.

Very sad for HoF submission as I spent a lot of time in this game.

Awful coding anyway. Counter-intuitive.

A Design Error is worst than a Bug.

Bugs aren't always avoidable.

Design Errors/Flaws should always be avoidable.

Designers are always expected to avoid Design Errors/Flaws. That's why they get paid big bucks.

If only two Great People were selected and a single Great Person Great Age was the last GP Great Age, only a single Great Age should be triggered.

Even if all five Great People were selected, the UI should ask whether a Second Golden Age should be started on the tail end of the first. With all Five Great People Selected, the Game would be free to pick the two Great People it would itself expend on a Great Age. I don't agree with the type of UI where the program decides what you want rather than ask what you want. A program should do exactly what I ask it to do within the limits of the understood Rules. The Game should not be deciding to do anything on your behalf, unless you explicitly told it do so.

Sun Tzu Wu

It seems to me it worked exactly how I would have expected it. If you choose one GP and start a golden age it automatically picks the needed GP to go with it. You selected TWO GP and asked them each to start golden ages. You got exactly what you asked for. -- 2 golden ages.

So it's not a bug, but I agree it would be better if they designed it to ask you which GP you want to use.

If you bring 3 stool legs to a carpenter and he returns you 3 stools with 1 leg each instead of 1 3-legged, then he has no idea what he's doing. Same for programmers.

Lexad said:

If you bring 3 stool legs to a carpenter and he returns you 3 stools with 1 leg each instead of 1 3-legged, then he has no idea what he's doing. Same for programmers.

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I agree, but it is even worst. The UI design is flawed which is worse than a bug.

One legged stools were commonly used in Mills a century or more ago. Since Milling could be a very boring activity, millers often fell asleep while the mill stone kept turning without grain; it was not good for the Mill to be run without grain. One solution to the sleeping Miller problem was the one legged stool. A Miller could easily balance on the stool using his own legs to keep it steady. However, as soon as the Miller started to fall asleep, he would fall jarringly to the floor. Millers would quickly learn to wake up immediately upon starting to lose balance, avoiding the nasty fall to the floor. The sleeping Miller problem was solved by the innovative one legged stool.

If only software designers could design a one legged stool that served a real purpose. By alas most software designers generate poor designs and most programmers write poorly written code. Its amazing that Civilization IV, Warlords and Beyond the Sword work at all given the often obfuscated code that they utilize.

I agree with Lexad 100%.

Sun Tzu Wu

You know, I've learnt something today (c)

Sun Tzu Wu said:

One legged stoosl were commonly used in Mills a century or more ago. Since Milling could be a very boring activity, millers often fell asleep while the mill stone kept turning without grain; it was not good for the Mill to be run without grain. One solution to the sleeping Miller problem was the one legged stool. A Miller could easily balance on the stool using his own legs to keep it steady. However, as soon as the Miller started to fall asleep, he would fall jarringly to the floor. Millers would quickly learn to wake up immediately upon starting to lose balance, avoiding the nasty fall to the floor. The sleeping Miller problem was solved by the innovative one legged stool.

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Forgive me but this sounds like a myth. Do you have a link?

If Lexad doesn't know about it, it can't be true

mushroomshirt said:

Forgive me but this sounds like a myth. Do you have a link?

If Lexad doesn't know about it, it can't be true

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The first time I saw a one legged stool was when a visited an old water wheel mill somewhere in the northeastern United States. The guide showed the visitors the actual one legged stool that was used by the millers keeping watch on the mill in operation. He explained that when a miller started to doze off, the body would relax and balance would slowly be lost and the miller would fall to the floor. Millers quickly learned a new reaction to dozing on the stool; they would quickly wake up to avoid the hard fall to the floor. The one legged stool looked very old and beat up (quite authentic in appearance).

When a tried Google to find links, I wasn't able to locate one relevant to water wheel milling. So maybe the practice wasn't as wide-spread as I thought or maybe the information is simply off-limits to Google's web crawlers. There are many humorous references to "one legged stool", but there are also several patents, a children's balance stool for school, a strap-on short one leg stool for milking cows, laying bricks, gardening, etc. Here are some links to these other applications of the one legged stool:

Field work or gardening on one legged stool:

http://bse.wisc.edu/hfhp/tipsheets_pdf/stool4web.pdf

One legged stool for school children (ad for stool; click Review Tab for customer feedback):

http://www.discountschoolsupply.com/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?product=25048&es=237640000ESC&utm_source=CSE&utm_medium=weblink&utm_campaign=nextag

Instructions on building a one legged gardening stool (reference to its use in brick laying in the intro):

http://www.yournewhouse.com/departments/tvshow/seg_tscript.asp?ts_id=9708&text_type=S&text_page=1

Not sure what application this patent is for, but it is about a one legged stool:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4700914.pdf

Ad for one legged school stool for children (See stool at bottom of this web page.):

http://naturetables.com/

The second of three farmering tools mentioned is a one legged milking stool:

http://www.inla1.org/HealthyFarmers.pdf

The best for last (scan this patent for the good sketches of the sportsman using a one legged stool):

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20050242630.pdf

I also saw a reference to a one legged stool being more practical to sit on than any other kind when one is on a steep hill. It would be quite impossible to sit on a three legged stool on steep hill with all three legs on the ground, because then the center of gravity would be outside the triangular base of the stool and one would fall off it immediately.

Based on the evidence above, I suggest that a "One Legged Stool" Technology be added to Civilization V for the Industrial Age.

Sun Tzu Wu

I heard about milkmaids using it.

One legged stool tech: +1 health from cows.

Sun Tzu Wu said:

The first time I saw a one legged stool was when a visited an old water wheel mill somewhere in the northeastern United States.

...snip...


Sun Tzu Wu

Click to expand...

I promise to never question you again!

That's one hell of an answer!

Sun Tzu Wu said:

When a tried Google to find links, I wasn't able to locate one relevant to water wheel milling. So maybe the practice wasn't as wide-spread as I thought or maybe the information is simply off-limits to Google's web crawlers.

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This is what I tried... as you found I had no luck.

EDIT: Eventually I found a reference to one legged stool use in a dynamite factory! A use very similar to your story: http://www.austehc.unimelb.edu.au/tia/610.html

mushroomshirt said:

I promise to never question you again!

That's one hell of an answer!

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Please do question my answers anytime. I certainly don't have monopoly on truth and often get things wrong. Also, it was fun trying to validate my answer.

mushroomshirt said:

EDIT: Eventually I found a reference to one legged stool use in a dynamite factory! A use very similar to your story: http://www.austehc.unimelb.edu.au/tia/610.html

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This is absolutely the best link yet. As you say, its an application very similar to my story of a Miller dozing off and letting the mill stones grind against each, but it the case of the critical steps of Dynamite manufacturing, dozing off could (presumably) be potentially lethal and very destructive.

Sun Tzu Wu

ParadigmShifter said:

I heard about milkmaids using it.

One legged stool tech: +1 health from cows.

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Brilliantly humorous!

Maybe there could be a Grenadier +10% Attack bonus for the safer Explosives produced via the "One Legged Stool" technology?

I may rarely say it, but I really enjoy reading your posts, ParadigmShifter.

Sun Tzu Wu

Aww thx STW. I try and live up to my user title

Does one-legged stool tech require multi-legged stool tech as a pre-req?

WastinTime said:

It seems to me it worked exactly how I would have expected it. If you choose one GP and start a golden age it automatically picks the needed GP to go with it. You selected TWO GP and asked them each to start golden ages. You got exactly what you asked for. -- 2 golden ages.

So it's not a bug, but I agree it would be better if they designed it to ask you which GP you want to use.

Click to expand...

I agree that its not a bug (in the sense that it works as it was poorly designed to work), but you do agree that it is a poor design or design flaw (often much worse than bug), right?

If one accidentally selected one or more Great People than needed for One Golden Age, the Civilization IV code should not check whether there are sufficient Great Persons to generate a Second Golden Age. It is a UI design flaw to allow Two Golden Ages to be generated when there are sufficient Great People to do so via a single click, unless the Icon clicked clearly means TWO GOLDEN AGES. The Icon clicked as I understand means a (single) Golden Age, or at least it should in a properly designed UI.

Generating Two Golden Ages accidentally can be a very frustrating and Game ruining experience. The Civilization IV User Interface and code should be designed to minimize such UI accidents. In regard to generating Golden Ages, it has failed the Users catastrophically, both by presumptuously choosing the Great People for the Golden Age and worse for generating TWO GOLDEN AGES when the User (presumably) intended only ONE.

There is also a UI rule violated by the Civilization IV UI code when it selects TWO Golden Ages rather than ONE Golden Age when the Golden Age Icon is selected. If the code selects 2 GAs and the user intended only 1 GA, there's no going back to 1 GA. If the the code properly chose just 1 GA regardless of the number of Great People Selected, the User can simply repeat the process in case he really did want TWO GAs.

Also, always selecting a Single Golden Age is preferred, because starting a Golden Age in a game happens much least frequently than almost any other User initiated action in the Game; thus it is quite tolerable to force the user to click the Golden Age Icon twice to get Two Golden Ages. This relates to a frequency of use related UI rule, where it is acceptable to force a User to repeat an action to get a sequence of two actions rather offer a way to get a single or a double play of the same action (i.e. present a "Single Golden Age" Icon and a significantly different "Two Golden Ages Icon") as that would unnecessarily clutter the UI, despite being presented only when enough Great People to generate Two Golden Ages exist.

I certainly hope that the Civilization V UI designers designed a better UI for Golden Age generation from Great People than what presently exists in All variants (Vanilla, Warlords, BtS) of Civilization IV. After all, these guys get paid big bucks for what they do for us Players, so they'd better get everything done right!

Sun Tzu Wu