Ranged Combat: Return Fire

AriochIV

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One potential problem I noticed with the new ranged combat mechanic is that it gives perhaps too much advantage to the player that acts first. In regular Civilization unit vs. unit combat, there is no inherent advantage to being the attacker (other than choosing where and when to fight), because the defending unit can damage back.

I was really surprised to see that with the new ranged combat, the target doesn't appear to have any chance to shoot back, even if it has a ranged attack itself. With ranged combat, the attacker now has a chance to completely destroy a defending unit with no chance of return damage. This makes sense when the defending unit has no ranged attack itself -- we expect swordsmen to have to suck it up and hide behind their shields and hope to survive. But when the defending unit has a ranged attack itself, it still appears that they cannot respond to a bombardment, and so can be destroyed without any possibility of damaging the attacker. So, essentially, you can move a bunch of attacking archers into range (since you have a move of 2), annihilate the defenders (including archers), and not even suffer any shots back.

This may not be a huge problem in land combat where the defenders may be in defensive terrain or behind walls, where perhaps a defending archer may survive multiple bombardments and offer a feeble shot back on its own turn. And siege weapons can't move and attack in the same turn. But it seems to be a serious problem in naval combat, where every unit has a ranged attack, and can move and attack in the same turn. In the GameSpot E3 interview video, we see an English frigate sunk by two Roman frigates in just two shots, and no damage at all taken by the attacking frigates. In the closed E3 video, a Roman frigate sinks an English ship of the line with a single shot. Later in the GameSpot video, we see a Japanese battleship sunk by two Roman destroyers and one Roman battleship, again without a single shot back from the Japanese.

So basically, you can sail up to an enemy and totally obliterate him without any casualties at all, just because you acted first. Even if a few of his ships survive to fire back on the next turn, the battle is already lost. This makes it kind of hard to defend anything with a fleet.

Ranged units that come under ranged attack should be able to fire back. I realize that they shouldn't be able to answer every attack -- that would probably allow them to fire way too many times per turn, and too heavily favor the defender. But they ought to be able to fire at least once during the attacker's turn if they come under fire. Otherwise, it's just too easy to wipe them out without any chance of forcing casualties on the attacker.
 
Frigate

Movement: 5; Strength: 30; Ranged Strength: 15; Cost: ?
Notes: Ranged Strength has a range of 2 tiles.
Given that the ranged strength appears to be about half of the unit strength, and based on what we (think we) know of the combat system, it should take roughly 3-4 shots from an equal unit to take out another. So, all things being equal, whoever goes first will have an advantage. Pretty accurate, really (think WWII, whoever found the enemy fleet first usually won). How big? hard to say - for every ship you sink, your opponent will know where 3-4 of your ships are, which will allow them to retaliate more effectively. Might be worth using some ships as pickets. . .
 
That would just reverse the problem, meaning that the defender will be able to obliterate the attacker.
i see no problem here :)
defenders should have an advantage. Maybe ranged combat is too strong - thats another question..
 
This has bothered me somewhat, too. I think defenders should be able to return fire once--if you're outnumbered, you're outnumbered, and there's not much you can do about it. But it would be nice if the game gave you the option to return fire against one of your attackers.

On the other hand, the downside of this is that a defending unit that survives will actually get two attacks in one turn (one on defense, one on offense), while the attackers only get one attack. Maybe a defending unit could get a "return fire" attack only if it is killed, like a last gasp sort of thing?
 
On the other hand, the downside of this is that a defending unit that survives will actually get two attacks in one turn (one on defense, one on offense), while the attackers only get one attack. Maybe a defending unit could get a "return fire" attack only if it is killed, like a last gasp sort of thing?

You forget something!

When it is defenders turn to shoot, also attacker can fire back in defence!

Thus BOTH get 2 shots per turn if shot at.
 
For land combat, you'd need to move right up to front infantry line to attack the enemy archers. But if you are moving and attacking the same turn, then you'd have to already be 2 tiles away, in range of sight of the infantry the previous turn. So the enemy could just attack your exposed archers then. The tactic does not work. Even if it did, the counter, would be to have cavalry in reserve for defending.

For naval conflict, I agree this could be a problem. It makes it so that overwhelming an opponent with ships will result in no damage to the fleet. Still, it's only a problem with overwhelming advantage. If the initial attack does not take out the enemy, then he'd be able to retaliate. It's still an advantage to the attacker, but it gets smaller the more rounds of shots are exchanged.

There could be a big problem of using an overwhelming fleet of older ships. A large fleet of triremes taking out a frigate with no casualties, or a fleet of frigates taking out an iron clad. The advantage of advanced naval technology would be underplayed. The only counter to this would be to allow retaliation attacks, and not just once per turn, but for every attack (of course attack strength would go down with health).
 
This has bothered me somewhat, too. I think defenders should be able to return fire once--if you're outnumbered, you're outnumbered, and there's not much you can do about it. But it would be nice if the game gave you the option to return fire against one of your attackers.

On the other hand, the downside of this is that a defending unit that survives will actually get two attacks in one turn (one on defense, one on offense), while the attackers only get one attack. Maybe a defending unit could get a "return fire" attack only if it is killed, like a last gasp sort of thing?

Non-ranged defending units get two attacks if they defend against being attacked by a non-ranged unit, then attack on their own turn.

I don't think the situation is as bad as Arioch describes it though. Say we have a defensive line that has 3 spearman next to each other with 2 archers on the hexes behind them. Assume that there is an identical attacking force. Now the situation Arioch describes means that there is one empty row of hexes in front of the defending spearman, than the 3 attacking spearman and then the 2 attacking archers. The plan of the attacker for the next turn is to move the spearman forward, then the archers forward, and then do a ranged attack with the archers. But of course the defender goes first and can perform exactly the same manoeuvre. There is also terrain to take into account. If the Archers have to move into difficult terrain, they can't attack after they move. If the defenders are on good defensive terrain, they might not move and the "free" ranged attack from the attacking archers might not have much of an effect.

The naval attack on the video doesn't sound good though. You shouldn't be able to destroy a unit with 2 ranged attacks at half that unit's strength. Damage it yes, but not destroy it.
 
I'd be actually glad if ranged naval attack only started with caravels or galleons, not with galleys or triremes. Most often, they maneuvered their ships close to each other and then fought hand to hand.
 
You forget something!

When it is defenders turn to shoot, also attacker can fire back in defence!

Thus BOTH get 2 shots per turn if shot at.

That's true... hadn't thought about that. :goodjob:

Non-ranged defending units get two attacks if they defend against being attacked by a non-ranged unit, then attack on their own turn.

Well, in addition to what Tregon pointed out (if the defending unit always gets a shot, then it evens out), a melee attack isn't the same as a non-ranged attack, as damage goes both ways. With a ranged attack, damage only goes one way.

The naval attack on the video doesn't sound good though. You shouldn't be able to destroy a unit with 2 ranged attacks at half that unit's strength. Damage it yes, but not destroy it.

Yeah, I think that's the sticking point here. I agree with you on the land battle scenarios, but naval battles are going to be a problem, since naval units will probably have more movement points and will be able to just sneak up, range attack a lone ship, and never have to worry about return fire.
 
you can return fire... the next turn. Units don't tend to die on the first hit, regular strength and terrain bonuses among others all reduce damage taken, i think its unlikely (although not impossible) to take 10 damage from one ranged attack.

And yes you could concentrate fire from several units to take one enemy out, but then the enemy can do the same to you on his turn, so in the end it would come down to numbers with the first to attack having only a slight advantage (as they decrease the enemy numbers first).
 
And yes you could concentrate fire from several units to take one enemy out, but then the enemy can do the same to you on his turn, so in the end it would come down to numbers with the first to attack having only a slight advantage (as they decrease the enemy numbers first).
In the naval combat examples that we've seen, ships have been able to sink enemy ships of equal size with about two hits. Given that the ranged strength of most vessels is exactly half the ship's strength, that's exactly what you'd expect. If we assume for a moment that's normal (and of course it might not be), even if the attacking and defending fleets are the same size, the one that fires first has a good chance to take out half of the other fleet with no damage to itself. Sure, the remaining half of the other fleet can fire back on the next turn, but unless they get incredibly lucky, the battle is already lost. And if the fleet that fires first is larger than the other fleet, the defender might not get a chance to fire back at all.

This can be easily remedied by just allowing the target a shot back.
 
Arioch, your a little late to the party, I noticed this mechanic and posted on these forums about "My concern" when the E3 videos first came out, that as you also say, when a ranged unit attacks another ranged unit it for some reason even though it has bow or cannon, decides to look at the lovely shade caused by the thousands of arrows blotting out the sun instead.

The thing is its a mechanic that doesn't need to be changed, I mean the game will not be unplayable if its left in, we will just have to learn to love it, I quote myself from memory "I'm sure I will quickly get over my concerns when I am crushing civilisations under my boot."
So basically, as far as ranged fire against other range capable units go, which is as you also noticed and so did I, this will be more of a problem in naval combat, whomever shoots first has the advantage. Where as in melee combat, thats not necessarily the case, with ranged vs ranged it will be. This is why I am going to love playing as England. Their increased movement will allow them to travel great distances and get in the first shot.
I will use land to show what I mean, when setting up your lines both you and your enemy, you will leave neutral territory for defensive purposes if possible. So two lines will look like this
A=archer M=Meleee N=Neutral Territory

A.M.N.M.A
or maybe even
A.M.N.N.M.A to stop thier melees and archers from attacking your melee units in 1 turn.

In sea this "neutral zone" for two frigates would usually be 6 hex's, with the enemy 7 hex's from you, as the firgate can only move 5 hex's or 4 and then shoot, they can't get to you in one turn, now, anyone trying this with an English ship is at severe disadvantage because they can travel 6 hex's and shoot or 7 hexes. This is why the English will rule the waves, enemies won't be able to run away, and English have a better "suprise I shot first" ability, which is what naval combat will be turned into.

As I said, the game wouldnt be unplayable, and both "ranged retailiation" & "sit around cloud watching" have thier own disadvantages. I.e The benefit of ranged attack is your using a much weaker assualt so that you dont get retaliation and dont lose health, if ranged units fired back, then this benefit would only apply to melee units which would suck a bit for ranged units.

Can't say I'm in love with the "ranged mechanic" as it is, but I don't see any alternative as being much better, I am certain I will love this mechanic and all other civ5 mechanics given time. =). I can't wait to play "who's gonna shoot first".
 
In the naval combat examples that we've seen, ships have been able to sink enemy ships of equal size with about two hits. Given that the ranged strength of most vessels is exactly half the ship's strength, that's exactly what you'd expect. If we assume for a moment that's normal (and of course it might not be), even if the attacking and defending fleets are the same size, the one that fires first has a good chance to take out half of the other fleet with no damage to itself. Sure, the remaining half of the other fleet can fire back on the next turn, but unless they get incredibly lucky, the battle is already lost. And if the fleet that fires first is larger than the other fleet, the defender might not get a chance to fire back at all.

This can be easily remedied by just allowing the target a shot back.

Yes but those were demo versions of the game, and therefore not to be taken litterally, just showing what could happen.

And if you look closely the winning ships that blast a ship in half in a single shot all have civ 4 equivilaent of a great gen with 100 xp.
 
As I said, the game wouldnt be unplayable, and both "ranged retailiation" & "sit around cloud watching" have thier own disadvantages. I.e The benefit of ranged attack is your using a much weaker assualt so that you dont get retaliation and dont lose health, if ranged units fired back, then this benefit would only apply to melee units which would suck a bit for ranged units.
If you remember in battles, the main target of the archers was slow moving melee infantry. ;) And even though melee infantry could not fire back but it was better armored & equipped with big shields so they took lesser damage. Moreover once they reached their enemies they were much stronger than archers. What I am trying to say is that ranged retaliation won't make melee infantry bad as melee infantry might not retaliate but they'll take lesser punishment from enemy arrows. And archers won't suck either because they are constantly inflicting damage on front row of enemy (usually heavy infantry) without hurting themselves. Furthermore units will not always get destroyed in one battle so archers will get more time to fire before they've to find cover.:p
Such issues don't make game unplayable but sometimes they are really annoying. Anyways I am looking forward for a well balanced ciV.
 
I am sure they do a lot of playtest to balance warfare in civ5.

We have heard that combat was perhaps the first thing made into the game,
so surely they polish it to somewhat...
 
I thought in one of the videos ranged units did fire back. Maybe I'm just misremembering things, but it would be even stranger if the designers had this feature in the game, and then took it out. It seems like a no-brainer to me.

Yes but those were demo versions of the game, and therefore not to be taken litterally, just showing what could happen.

And if you look closely the winning ships that blast a ship in half in a single shot all have civ 4 equivilaent of a great gen with 100 xp.

Well, now it's starting to make sense. It would be weird if a unit with a ranged attack only half as strong as the unit it is attacking could reduce its target to half health in a single hit. Then a cannon could drop a tank to half in one attack.
 
In the naval combat examples that we've seen, ships have been able to sink enemy ships of equal size with about two hits. Given that the ranged strength of most vessels is exactly half the ship's strength, that's exactly what you'd expect. If we assume for a moment that's normal (and of course it might not be), even if the attacking and defending fleets are the same size, the one that fires first has a good chance to take out half of the other fleet with no damage to itself. Sure, the remaining half of the other fleet can fire back on the next turn, but unless they get incredibly lucky, the battle is already lost. And if the fleet that fires first is larger than the other fleet, the defender might not get a chance to fire back at all.

This can be easily remedied by just allowing the target a shot back.


I don't think this is a broken game mechanic.

It just makes it extremely dangerous to leave capital ships on your front line. Since the first shot is so important, this will cause scouting and outmaneuvering to be of crucial importance.

If you know where your enemy's ships are due to advanced scouting, you may have lost a weaker scout-like ship, but you'll be able to plan your attack so as to take out one of his capital ships before it can fire back.
 
Alright, let's say we can return fire. I see two bad things happening:

1) Having "one more bombard range" is now absolutely crucial for ship warfare. If I have a bombard of 5 and you have a bombard of 4, I will try and get 5 spaces away from you. I think this is messy.

2) I am trying to decide what to do with my archer. I can attack your archer, who will fire back, or your swordsman, who can't. I will most of the time choose your swordsman.


I think this is remedied by the fortify option. If a unit has done nothing on its previous turn, it gets to fire back, ie it's like it's using its shot from its previous turn.
 
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