Why the rathaus love?

It's full price, and the additional -25% maintenance doesn't make it *that* much better than an ordinary courthouse until the corporate era. Is it given so much credit because Charlie is so pathetic in every other way?

That's a 50% bonus. It gains a lot of love because it is a common building for many cities and a 50% is a good bit.

Have you ever played as Holy Rome?

If you have one in most of your cities, you're basically playing as Protective, Imperialistic, and Organized without the build bonuses.

It saves about 2-3 extra gold over the normal building, and in high commerce cities it's still not better than a library, marketplace, etc. The sacrificial altar and ziggurat are cheaper and offer an extra benefit (uber-whipping, and early alternative tech path, respectively) as well. Organized civilizations get the courthouse twice as quickly, so it's viable in many cities where it would otherwise be too expensive.

The relative benefit of the rathaus is close to feitoria levels: average. Other buildings, like the stock exchange and the seowan, easily bring 6-8 extra gold (albeit in the midgame) as well as being on otherwise solid civilizations.

I suspect many players face pathetic economies due to the imperialistic/protective combo, so the rathaus comes as a massive relief. That doesn't necessarily make it on par with the truly great UBs, or even the other courthouse replacements.

Higher Game said:

It's full price, and the additional -25% maintenance doesn't make it *that* much better than an ordinary courthouse until the corporate era. Is it given so much credit because Charlie is so pathetic in every other way?

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Well it's obviously the better HRE unique by a several mile stretch, if only because the UU is so awful. Let's face it: traits, UU, and UB for the most part are a tiny part of success on a given map, excepting the truly top notch UUs that can be used to press in SP or MP very early (or afford stupid naval advantages). Spawn luck and play quality are much greater factors.

So how does the HRE UB stack up against other UBs? It's a material benefit relatively early in the game, that lasts. It's obviously strongest at high levels but not insignificant at middle levels. It meshes well with its leaders traits unlike some UBs.

Feitoria is one of the worst UBs in the game, offering less gold (or anything)/turn and later.

While UBs like stock exchange and seowan are worth extra yield in your strongest cities, the rat house offers an extra 2-3 gold reduction in virtually every city you own by the same time...even the ones with low/no/limited commerce...but they start benefiting you much sooner. Also, buildings like stock exchange are hampered significantly by how you use the slider...HRE's is not.

Overall its flexibility and early usage puts it in the top tier of UBs, though most UBs aren't GREAT anyway. Keep in mind, however, that I voted sac altar ahead of it, and IMO the ikhanda is also a better UB.

A empire with rathaus in all cities is running SP with a 25% maintenance penalty, no extra food for workshops and ability to run corps ... all of this by the time of CoL In fact, and in spite being a decent UB by it self from the first moment you can build it, the HRE UB is very good cutting the corps maintenance to digestable levels .

And please, PLEASE, think again on the Feitoria. Feitoria is arguably the worst UB in game ( or atleast it is one of the worst ). The best you can say about it is that it would give a decent building ... mainly because it the derivate of a crappy building. Really, the guy that had the idea for the Custom houses didn't understood how trade routes work ...

r_rolo1 said:

A empire with rathaus in all cities is running SP with a 25% maintenance penalty, no extra food for workshops and ability to run corps ... all of this by the time of CoL In fact, and in spite being a decent UB by it self from the first moment you can build it, the HRE UB is very good cutting the corps maintenance to digestable levels .

And please, PLEASE, think again on the Feitoria. Feitoria is arguably the worst UB in game ( or atleast it is one of the worst ). The best you can say about it is that it would give a decent building ... mainly because it the derivate of a crappy building. Really, the guy that had the idea for the Custom houses didn't understood how trade routes work ...

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I wonder if they were made separately from the person changing the mechanics. If we had customs house with vanilla trade mechanics I'd imagine your opinion of the building would be quite different.

r_rolo1 said:

In fact, and in spite being a decent UB by it self from the first moment you can build it, the HRE UB is very good cutting the corps maintenance to digestable levels .

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Digestable? Uh.... gross.

I think that this aspect turns the Rathaus from a good UB to an amazing UB.

My first game was as the HRE. The leader and empire made since. Expands quickly and defends those cities well, with faster built settlers and Protective archers and walls.
The UB reduces City Maintenance cost for those new cities (which was insane under Civ3).
The UU gives the anti-horse unit nearly the power to of a maceman, for less cost, to defeat axemen, swords and pikemen.
Normally, macemen defeat Pikemen. Landsknecht make that maceman's decision tougher.
When, you attack with Trebs, Landsknecht and Macemen, you have a very solid victory vs melee units and you earn generals more quickly.
For what it does, an all around balanced empire for attacking when it does.

The Feitoria is hardly the worst UB in the game. So, please, spare us your lack of comprehensive knowledge.
The Research Institute and Stele far exceed it in worthlessness.
The Stele becomes obsolete, while the Feitoria benefits you the rest of the game.
The Research Institute is not always needed. I have won games before even getting that far. Many leaders (usually Financial) can out tech Russia, others are better at eliminating Russia far before that building is available.
The Feitoria is Portugal's way of building a Colossus. Granted, it is late in the game, but, it is still useful for teching and upgrading units, and doesn't expire.

Consider a custom game using unrestricted leaders.
Huayna Capac, Darius, or William Van Oranje would tech even faster with a Feitoria.

The Feitoria is hardly the worst UB in the game. So, please, spare us your lack of comprehensive knowledge.

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HMMM, let's have some fun with this.

The Stele becomes obsolete, while the Feitoria benefits you the rest of the game.

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Stele is not a powerhouse UB by any stretch of the imagination, but it carries significance in culture wins and helps control tiles early in the game.

The Research Institute is not always needed.

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This is true for the vast majority of buildings you can possibly choose.

I have won games before even getting that far.

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Most people have, but that doesn't guarantee its worthlessness.

Many leaders (usually Financial) can out tech Russia

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. FIN is good, but you make it out as if it routinely surpasses other traits on a typical map. Sometimes, but only sometimes.

others are better at eliminating Russia far before that building is available.

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Yeah, ok. Let's just use this argument against the feitoria too, since portugal doesn't have any military advantages that Russia lacks...and one of the Russian leaders is stronger for early wars.

The Feitoria is Portugal's way of building a Colossus. Granted, it is late in the game, but, it is still useful for teching and upgrading units, and doesn't expire.

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Riverside grassland cottage > colossus coast > grassland cottage > coast. Great. However, in the era of the feitoria, coast tiles have to compete with EMANCIPATION cottages that can easily double the yield of feitoria coast and then some, workshops and windmills that have a higher yield instantly, biology farms, and eventually railroad-boosted mines/lumbermills. It loses to every singe one of those tile improvements, so much of the "colossus" effect has evaporated by then. Even with feitoria those are some of the last tiles you'll want to work, especially in cities intended explicitly for commerce.

Consider a custom game using unrestricted leaders.
Huayna Capac, Darius, or William Van Oranje would tech even faster with a Feitoria.

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Or they can stick to their vastly superior UBs each has. Overrated as the dike is, the hammer *is* more valuable than an extra commerce, both on highly marginal tiles.

When, you attack with Trebs, Landsknecht and Macemen, you have a very solid victory vs melee units and you earn generals more quickly.
For what it does, an all around balanced empire for attacking when it does.

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For someone asking us to spare them a lack of comprehensive knowledge, talking about a stack that gets completely massacred by one unit that is available before any of them shows an odd lack of comprehensive knowledge. Of course, not too much later muskets completely own this kind of stack too.

I will not argue if you want to imply that feitoria isnt the WORST, but it's down there. Things like assembly plant do give it a run for its money for worst after all.

Greetings TMIT, fellow Central Floridian.

It sounds like in some cases, you made my point too.
Yes, I was pointing out that it isn't the worst UB, and by comprehensive, I am refering to other options other than the obvious standard leader and empire.
A friend and I use a LAN and routinely use the unrestricted leaders feature built into the custom game.
So, to claim the Feitoria is "the worst UB in game" seemed unwarranted. As if, the 52 leaders to choose from, not to mention of scenarios and mods, were not even considered by that poster.

I grant you the benefits of "Riverside grassland cottage > colossus coast > grassland cottage > coast", and on inland cities the Feitoria can't even be built.
In large cities on the coast, with say 8+ water tiles, the Feitoria makes those otherwise less used tiles more appealing.
Especially, on maps with tiny islands of routinely 15+ water tiles, with little or no space for cottages. All you need is a fish resourse, a lighthouse, a granary, and maybe a harbor or other currency buildings. One can just leave it on gaining cash for the empire.

Water tile = 2 commerce, Financial Trait +1 = 3 commerce, builds Collossus +1 = 4 commerce, and for a short overlap time Feitoria +1 = 5 commerce per water tile, requiring no workers brought out to these tiny islands.

On an archipelago maps, and continent maps where the each continent is seperated by 3+ water tiles, the Portugues do well, and that is the main time I would use their focused advantages.
Their ship is the only one before Astronomy that can send a settler and archer to new continents.

True, not needed for every game, such as pangea, and not the best empire in Civ4, but, they do have their specialization that they do well at.

plasmacannon said:

On an archipelago maps, and continent maps where the each continent is seperated by 3+ water tiles, the Portugues do well, and that is the main time I would use their focused advantages.
Their ship is the only one before Astronomy that can send a settler and archer to new continents.

True, not needed for every game, such as pangea, and not the best empire in Civ4, but, they do have their specialization that they do well at.

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What does this even have to do with their UB?

It shows which maps I would choose the Portugues, and therefore, be able to build the Feitoria, thus getting the maximum benefit from it.
One doesn't choose the Portugues on a Tectonics map, or Pangea.
Their best use is to grab islands (or any landmass across water) early before others can.
They have the only ship that can, and can build settlers quickly.
All other empires must wait til Astronomy.
This limits their expansion, if they start on a small continent.
The Portugues can settle other continents and quickly gain the land andvantage.

On-topic response.

OP: If the city maintenance is enough that a courthouse is the best build, why wouldn't you want 75% reduction instead of 50%? If the Rathaus doesn't make much of a difference, you probably shouldn't have built a courthouse in that city in the first place.

Also, remember that maintenance fees get much higher on higher levels. The higher the level, the more valuable the Rathaus is. On Settler or Chieftain, you don't need it.

Also, check out the recent thread about the best courthouse replacement for a longer discussion. The Rathaus won that vote.

Is it really that uncommon to work water tiles for whip(don't forget the Kremlin)/draft purposes? I definitely wouldn't kill off citizens working towns or mines, but the dockworkers make great fodder; lots of players like to cap them as specialists but it just doesn't pay off much compared to the GPP farm, especially outside of representation. Often, it doesn't even yield a GP by the end of the game.

For population growth and a little bit of commerce, I don't see a problem with working on average 2-3 water tiles in between cullings. The feitoria gives a modest return with this setup. It is, however, a very notable building for the Moai city (I have a new respect for it for helping yield a late game prophet, for a GA), often giving 10+ extra RAW commerce. I wouldn't put it next to truly lower-tier buildings like the mall, assembly plant, stele, salon, madrassa, or pavilion. It also doesn't require horses like the hippodrome, or cheese like the obelisk. The feitoria simply isn't a bad unique building; it's just average.

As for the Rathaus, I figure it takes about 50 turns for it to catch up to an organized courthouse. It's worth about 2 gold/turn more, but it's 60 hammers more expensive, which is about 10 turns there, and you have to consider that early gold (and espionage) is nicer than later gold. It's an improvement over the original but it's not even close to a borderline trait substitute like the terrace, hammam, or garden. It's also an average unique building. I don't see why it's beloved so much.

Is it really that uncommon to work water tiles for whip(don't forget the Kremlin)/draft purposes? I definitely wouldn't kill off citizens working towns or mines, but the dockworkers make great fodder; lots of players like to cap them as specialists but it just doesn't pay off much compared to the GPP farm, especially outside of representation. Often, it doesn't even yield a GP by the end of the game.

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Yes, it's reasonably uncommon. To whip you need to be in slavery, and @ pop 10+ it starts looking like a really bad deal. You also forgo the spec slots (and workshop hammer!) of caste or the + cottage growth of emancipation. If you are in rep specialists are better even w/o GPP.

You might grow onto the tiles anyway, but on anything but the most water heavy maps we're talking like 10-15 commerce from the UB at most, probably much less, after multiple constructions of it.

BTW, madrassa has no place in a bottom list and stele/pavillion are questionable there too (culture oomph to win tiles is not insignificant, and neither is culture victory help). Of the terrace/hammam/garden, you're listing some of the better UBs in the game for comparison (though the terrace, garden and hamman are nowhere NEAR their traits, garden doesn't even function as half of one). Hippodrome needs no horses for double slider value.

And comparing ORG courthouses with Rathaus is like comparing FIN customs houses with the feitoria - ohsnap (/rememberfifteenyearsago)! It *never* catches up! Ouch.

One doesn't choose the Portugues on a Tectonics map, or Pangea.

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Why not. I do. Or get them randomly.

Anyhow, in my opinion Freitoria is the worst U building at any map. Means that other UBs generally are more useful than it. Any* map.

In another thread, TMIT said Freitoria/Customs H is viable building at appropriate cities. I have no reasons to doubt it, he's far better player than I am. However, in my personal experience, I never build Freitorias because there is always something else to build, something better, more useful, more beneficial at the given moment. And in my opinion this is the top, crappest of the crappest, you can't get worse than that: Unique building, something that is supposed to be better than regular buildings, something that is supposed to give you advantage or even an edge, something that is part of what defines your Civilization.... never gets built. Because it's that crap. Sorry for my poor English, I hope you see my point.

* I am not sure maybe it is possible to build a custom map with the sole purpose to make Fretoria better than Dun & very late game UBs.

On the "mini-colossus" feitoria theory: it doesn't even get close. Just check the cost of the building vs the benefit for both: 20 coins/turn top for the feitoria, a 180 hammers building and a unlimited coins/turn for the colossus, a 250 hammer building, boosted by copper ( making it cheaper than feitoria with copper ) .... even if you consider average coins/turn the thing does not get better That is like comparing a Smart(TM) with a Ferrari(TM) in terms of speed, jut because both are cars ( in case you don't know, the Smart is limited to 130km/h from the factory, because , due to it's height/axis length ratio, it is quite prone to capsizing at higher speeds ).

Even Portuguese themselves say Freitoria is crap. What more evidence do you need?