Kick'n it with the legion

So I have played most of the other races on Rife so far, but last night I tried The Legion to see what they are all about. I have to say that I love most of what they have and are about, but for a few fatal flaws.

1. Almost all of thier fighting units are so week on the attacking side that I find myself lining the borders of my cities with them just so when someone decides to attack they can defend and get a higher rating. This seems pretty behind the times and underpowered as most of the time the game throws enemies of 15 strength at me as soon as I start to get anywhere and I am forced to throw minion after minion "under the bus" so to speak, to stop just one unit form wreaking total havoc on my cities.

2. I like how they are limited on how many cities they can have, it makes sense to do this, but maybe it should be raised to like 6 or 8. Maybe there could be a special building you have to build later in mid game time to increase this?

3. Since they are undead maybe they should have a unit that would allow them to control the natural undead that occur from lairs and ruins. You could limit the units power by making it so you could only create 4 of them and that they can only control say 2 each. They could also be limited on what type of undead they can control by upgrades and could limit the unit by making the player acquire Necromancy and several other techs.

Besides those things I think the Legion will be the lead civs for me to play in Rife from now on.

blue_cow_spit said:

Almost all of thier fighting units are so week on the attacking side that I find myself lining the borders of my cities with them just so when someone decides to attack they can defend and get a higher rating.

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Well, they are 1 less Str on attack and 1 more on defense, but they also get D'Tesh affinity which improves strength based on the number of Death nodes you have. If anything, their Melee units are stronger than anyone else's. Though you can always build Warriors and Axemen if you want. They aren't your primary attack force anyway.

2. I like how they are limited on how many cities they can have, it makes sense to do this, but maybe it should be raised to like 6 or 8.

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There's really no limit on the number of cities they get. Everytime you destroy an enemy city, you get a settler.

Since they are undead maybe they should have a unit that would allow them to control the natural undead that occur from lairs and ruins.

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D'Tesh (hero) can do this.

Besides those things I think the Legion will be the lead civs for me to play in Rife from now on.

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Wouldn't have anything to do with how incredibly overpowered they are, would it?

Just a few tips for playing the D'tesh. With D'tesh as a leader. I still need to play Thantos a bit more. And most fatal flaws they have are just weird playstyle issues that need to be tweaked.

1. Build minimal melee units, they really aren't worth it. You're better off building Adepts. Use the disciple line to guard your cities. It's what they're made for.

2. Adepts Adepts Adepts. Well Binders. Build them early, often, and use them in combat. No exp gain means they level up like everyone else. Also you need to build nodes asap. Personally you're best bet is to focus on Death. And more Death. Your wars are fought with skeletons and specters.

3. Lichs are NOT free archmages. Once you get the Council of four you're probably thinking that with Death 3 you get a few free archmages in the form of Lichs. You're wrong. Lichs are weaking(I'm not sure if chosen are better, it might depend on your death mana). Personally I avoid lichs.

4. If you have wild mana on metamagic is a must. You need dispel magic. There are three mana types you want. Death, Shadow and Entropy. If you can grab dimensional and chaos, and your archmages have the promotions available, trying to get master of Necromancy is always a good idea.

5. Location Location Location. Every time you raze a city you get a settler. The AI is absolutely horrible at city placement, so if you capture a size 2 city, that really should have been placed somewhere else, raze the sucker. You get a free settler to do what you like with. And city growth isn't a problem, you should have a nice stack of slaves from your last conquest.

/sign on this
although i must say that with their new leader even the disciple units make a good attack force, that allows, due to their high defense value (which can be boosted again with one of those three buffs) to dig in almost everywhere. and they make pretty good slave hunters too

furthermore i would add: consider getting hunting soon and spread several hunters into the world. the more slaves the better. no other civ gets actual that much bonus from having large quantities of barbs and barb cities nearby. with their spiritual leader skip it and spread some of your disciple units in the territory outside your borders on defend command and wait for suicidal barbs to become slaves, erm happy future citizens of your glorious empire...

and for melee: dont build them at all. not a single unit.

blue_cow_spit said:

So I have played most of the other races on Rife so far, but last night I tried The Legion to see what they are all about. I have to say that I love most of what they have and are about, but for a few fatal flaws.

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The Legion has no flaws.

Viatos said:

The Legion has no flaws.

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As I have never played them before and tend to play a more melee focused game I guess I just have to tweek my playing style to fit with them more.

blue_cow_spit said:

As I have never played them before and tend to play a more melee focused game I guess I just have to tweek my playing style to fit with them more.

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If you're scared, rush KotE then get hunting for invisible Hunters and Thanatos, who is also invisble. I have long since stopped pretending that things like that are even necessary; I open the tech screen at game start, click Necromancy, then shift-click Strength of Will.

D'tesh does not have a melee line until, like, Divine Essence. His Arcane line, however, is unbelievably strong. Lord D'tesh himself is a game-ender if you've been collecting death mana with your invisible Great Commanders spawning your instant-culture forts.

You literally do not need any economic or resource techs, any defensive techs, any metals. Ash every organic resource. Catacomb every mineral resource. Make unbelievably strong mages with death summons. Win.

Viatos said:

D'tesh does not have a melee line until, like, Divine Essence. His Arcane line, however, is unbelievably strong. Lord D'tesh himself is a game-ender if you've been collecting death mana with your invisible Great Commanders spawning your instant-culture forts.

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I'm confused by this. I kind of thought his melee line was pretty good. 4 warrior UUs and 5 axemen UUs (on defense) with +30% or more from affinity are pretty good for posting in your cities and escorting your attack troops... At least that's what *I* thought...

i think ure mistaking the new disciple units line for the melees

azzedar said:

i think ure mistaking the new disciple units line for the melees

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Yeah, that's probably it. I mean, I purposely avoided the actual Warrior and Axeman because they stink. I guess thought the Sentinel/etc... were Melee UU's because they didn't require a religion and I never checked.

EugeneStyles said:

Yeah, that's probably it. I mean, I purposely avoided the actual Warrior and Axeman because they stink. I guess thought the Sentinel/etc... were Melee UU's because they didn't require a religion and I never checked.

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yeah, those are cool and imho a valid alternative to pushing adepts only. although wether adepts or those units depends on the leader you chose

EugeneStyles said:

I'm confused by this. I kind of thought his melee line was pretty good. 4 warrior UUs and 5 axemen UUs (on defense) with +30% or more from affinity are pretty good for posting in your cities and escorting your attack troops... At least that's what *I* thought...

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You only need Watchers early game. D'teshi arcane can conquer just fine on its own. The usual tactic of Assassin doesn't work here; immune to poison damage damage, first of all, and the ADEPTS can kill them, second of all. All you need melee for is feeding your arcane.

As long as you understand how to use them it's really impossible to lose as the D'Tesh. Depending on map size and starting areas it's easy to take out two or three civs before Lord D'tesh joins the party. And once that happens it's game over.

This is mostly curiosity, but does anyone know if Chosen or Lichs are more powerful. I never actually checked.

according to the greyfox wiki chosen are 4+3death
cant say what lichs are atm, not at a pc with civ
but i think there were 5+2death or so... at least thats their values for ffh (once again, according to the ffh wiki), i think its the same in rife

yep, their casters are too strong.

dunedainjedi said:

As long as you understand how to use them it's really impossible to lose as the D'Tesh. Depending on map size and starting areas it's easy to take out two or three civs before Lord D'tesh joins the party. And once that happens it's game over.

This is mostly curiosity, but does anyone know if Chosen or Lichs are more powerful. I never actually checked.

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Chosen are 4 Strength, +3 Death Combat. Liches are 5 + 2. Chosen have Channeling I and II and D'teshi Affinity bonuses, and a free promotion, as well as native 35% slave chance. Liches have Spell Extension 1.

Lich should be 5+2, yes. (according to the pedia reader)

azzedar said:

i think ure mistaking the new disciple units line for the melees

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Oh, they have a disciple line past Watcher? *checks* Oh, 10/12 with +2 Death Affinity. Awesome. And...yup, they have a nice high enslave chance too. I thought Vanedis was a Mechanos leader, guess not.

I am going to make a Scions of Patria mod where Korinna upgrades at Agriculture to be riding the child of Abashi and Eurabatres, with a custom piece of equipment that lets her summon Iras like the Avatar of Wrath, except her Iras have +5 Korinna affinity (triggers for each letter in her name) and can summon Avatars of Wrath, who can summon more Iras.

Then we'll see who's the most popular undead civ.

this could be an even fight. although i would still put my bet on d'tesh
btw, you forgot the army of undead nazis riding on dinosaurs

btw. gotta out myself as scions-hater. too much ideas mixed in wierd vortex of strange influences which resembles too much and and creates nothing.

dunedainjedi said:

As long as you understand how to use them it's really impossible to lose as the D'Tesh. Depending on map size and starting areas it's easy to take out two or three civs before Lord D'tesh joins the party. And once that happens it's game over.

This is mostly curiosity, but does anyone know if Chosen or Lichs are more powerful. I never actually checked.

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Please note that Council of four Archmages UU are resurrected on death (Like Immortals). Lichs (I suppose) are not.

Sjru said:

Please note that Council of four Archmages UU are resurrected on death (Like Immortals). Lichs (I suppose) are not.

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He's talking about the Mage UU. The Archmage UU has strength 8 and Affinity for Death and Shadow, making them much stronger then liches could ever dream of being.

azzedar said:

btw. gotta out myself as scions-hater. too much ideas mixed in wierd vortex of strange influences which resembles too much and and creates nothing.

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You should read "In A Bright Land". It's a mindscrew and it requires a pretty solid grasp of FfH lore to follow (I have not, for instance, actually taken the time to parse out Korinna's father - "one-handed man with stars for eyes", Tarquelne indicated he was given minor mention at best.) but it goes a long way towards explaining the Scions. It all makes sense after that.

If you look closely, D'teshi mechanics are just what the Scions should have had. Fallow, generates population with HIGH efficiency instead of LOW efficiency from opponents, truly immune to health issues and terrain, possesses an effective system for dealing with food resources, powerful Arcane and Disciple lines...compare and contrast Themoch and Thanatos, the invisible stealth line and Korinna the Black Lady, The Risen Emperor and Lord D'tesh as capstones. D'teshi even get Haunted Lands spread for free.

Yeah, I'm a little bitter. It hurts that the Scions have such awesome and thorough lore, and D'tesh didn't even have an entry until recently, he was just some guy. I think even the Gem of Death is an add-on. Yet, one civ is the strongest in the game and the other kills itself with its own flavorstart and unique terrain feature...