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Old Aug 26, 2010, 02:08 PM   #1
Deliverator
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Espionage Redesign

Taken from the 1.7.0.6 patch release note, this is (I think) a fairly up-to-date summary of the current espionage missions and promotions:

Spoiler:
Promotions
* Diplomat: automatically added to Reverend Mother URU, enables Annex City, Destabliize, Political Marriage, Cause Incident missions
* Sabotage: automatically added to Saboteur UU, enables Sabotage mission
* Poisoner I: automatically added to Face Dancer UU, enables Assassinate Specialist and Impersonate Commander missions, +50% bonus unhealthiness from missions
* Deception I,II,III: +10% defense against detection ("detection evasion")
* Escape Artist I,II: +40% to survive upon mission failure
* Improvise I,II,III: +20% success rate ("free preparation bonus")
* Instigator I,II: +50% unrest from missions
* Instigator III: +100% city revolt time
* Loyalty: never reveals nationality, prevents -1 diplomatic penalty upon capture
* Poisoner II, III: +50% unhealthiness from missions
* Security I,II,III: +1 visibility range, +10% spy detection bonus, +50% counterespionage bonus

Vanilla missions
* See Demographics, See City, Investigate City: passive missions
* Buy Tech: cost 0, difficulty 25
* City Revolt: cost 650, difficulty 25
* City Unhappiness: cost 120, difficulty -50
* Counterespionage: cost 100, difficulty -100
* Destroy Building: cost 500, difficulty 10
* Destroy Improvement: cost 75, difficulty 0
* Destroy Production: cost 500, difficulty 0
* Destroy Project: cost 500, difficulty 0
* Insert Culture: cost 0, difficulty 0
* Poison Water: cost 120, difficulty -50
* Steal Treasury: cost 300, difficulty 25
* Switch Civic: cost 60000, difficulty 50
* Switch Religion: cost 60000, difficulty 50

Additional missions
v = present in vanilla but disabled, s = added/changed by Super Spies, d = added/changed by Dune Wars
* Annex City (v,d): requires Diplomat, cost 3000, difficulty 50
* Assassinate Specialist (s): requires Poisoner, cost 500, difficulty 25
* Cause Incident (d): requires Diplomat, cost 200, difficulty 25
* Destabilize Civilization (v): requires Diplomat, cost 1500, difficulty 50
* Impersonate Commander (d): requires Poisoner, cost 250, difficulty 25
* Political Marriage (d): requires Diplomat, cost 150, difficulty 25
* Recruit Worker (v,s): cost 150, difficulty 25
* Sabotage Unit (v,d): requires Sabotage, cost 100, difficulty 25

Old Spy Promo Effects
FriendlyHeal - % more unhealthiness
EnemyHeal - % more unhappiness
NeutralHeal - % longer revolt time
UpgradeDiscount - % success rate
Always Heal - Loyalty - never reveals nationality, prevents -1 diplomatic penalty upon capture
InterceptChange - % spy detection bonus, 5x% counter-espionage
EvasionChange - % defense against detection ("detection evasion")
WithdrawChange - % to survive upon mission failure

Ahriman's proposal for faction-unique espionage is from this post onwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahriman
Design goal: Make espionage a more interesting part of the game, by making the espionage options available to each faction both powerful and flavorful.
From the 1.8 feedback thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahriman
... based on my design principles from earlier; severely limit the range of espionage missions available to each faction to only the most thematic, and then have a cheap one with a minor but always useful effect that could be spammed, and a powerful one that is expensive. And espionage UUs for basically every faction.
This is to stop the AI from wasting EPs on low-value impacts, and try it to get it to actually have a chance to use the more powerful missions, and to make it feel more flavorful.

I will probably also redesign the espionage buildings. Perhaps we can work up something coherent with +EP vs EP% boosts.

Is it possible to have espionage missions whose access is controlled by tech?
(The answer is yes; EspionageMissionInfos has a TechPrereq field.)

Anyway, here's a proposed design roughly based on Ahriman's proposal. There are some missions shared between civs, but that is because I wanted to follow theme and it didn't seem necessary to make missions completely exclusive. We can revise this based on discussions.

New Missions List
* See Demographics, See City, Investigate City: passive missions
* Lower Defenses (City Revolt for 1 turn)
* Spread Lies (Creates Misinformation building: -20% production, +4 unhappy for 10 turns)
* Exert Influence (Creates External Influence building:-75% culture for 10 turns)
* Cause Incident (-2 diplo modifier between target civ and the civ of your choice)
* Political Marriage (+1 diplo modifier between target civ and you)
* Assassinate Great Person (removes 1 settled great person)
* Incite Anarchy (puts target player into Anarchy - as with a revolution - for 2 turns)
* Destroy Production (wipes out currently accumulated production from target city)
* Seduce Leaders (Creates Seduced Leaders building: -50% culture, -10% production for 10 turns)
* Acquire Technology
* Establish Semuta Den (creates Semuta Den in target city)
* Steal Water (pipes +4 water from target city to one of yours for 3 turns by creating Stolen Water In/Out buildings)
* Sell Shipment (steals a % of the target civ's treasury)
* Addict Worker (converts a worker to your civ)
* Destroy Unit (kills a Vehicle/Mech/Thopter/Hornet unit)
* Destroy Improvement
* Destroy Building
* Annex City (gives city to you)
* Counterespionage

Missions to be axed:
* City Unhappiness
* Destroy Project
* Insert Culture
* Switch Civic
* Switch Religion
* Poison Water
* Impersonate Commander (As far as I know this is still buggy anyway)

New Spy Promotion Effects
FriendlyHeal - % diplo bonus
EnemyHeal - % diplo penalty
NeutralHeal - % longer duration of building effect on target city
UpgradeDiscount - % success rate
Always Heal - Loyalty - never reveals nationality, prevents -1 diplomatic penalty upon capture
InterceptChange - % spy detection bonus, 5x% counter-espionage bonus
EvasionChange - % defense against detection ("detection evasion")
WithdrawChange - % to survive upon mission failure

New General Spy Promotions
* Stealth I,II,III: +10% defense against detection ("detection evasion") : All
* Escape Artist I,II: +40% to survive upon mission failure : Not Traitor, Spy Drone
* Dexterity I,II,III: +20% success rate ("free preparation bonus") : All
* Loyalty: never reveals nationality, prevents -1 diplomatic penalty upon capture : Not Spy Drone, Narcotics Dealer, Saboteur, Traitor
* Security I,II,III: +1 visibility range, +10% spy detection bonus, +50% counterespionage bonus : Not Traitor, Narcotics Dealer, Saboteur

New UU Spy Promotions
* Treachery I,II,III: % duration of Lower Defenses/Misinformation : Traitor Only
* Conspiracy I,II,III: % duration of Exert Influence, % diplo penalty of Cause Incident : Sardaukar Agent Only
* Instigation I,II,III: % duration of Incite Anarchy, % diplo penalty of Cause Incident : Face Dancer Only
* Seduction I,II,III: % duration of Seduction, % diplo bonus of Political Marriage : Acolyte Only
* Intrigue I,II,III: % duration of Exert Influence : Truthsayer Only
* Water Theft I,II,III: % duration of Steal Water : Sandshadow Only
* Sabotage : Saboteur Only
* Remote Operations : Spy Drone Only
* Narcotics Dealing : Narcotics Dealer Only

UNITS

Harkonnen
Unit: Traitor
Missions: Lower Defenses , Misinformation
Promotions: Treachery, Stealth, Dexterity

Corrino
Unit: Sardaukar Agent
Missions: Assassinate Great Person, Exert Influence, Cause Incident
Promotions: Conspiracy, Stealth, Dexterity, Escape Artist, Loyalty, Security

Tleilaxu
Unit: Face Dancer
Missions: Incite Anarchy, Cause Incident, Assassinate Great Person
Promotions: Instigation, Stealth, Dexterity, Escape Artist, Loyalty, Security

Ix
Unit: Spy Drone
Missions: Destroy Unit (Vehicle/Mech/Thopter/Hornet), Acquire Technology, Destroy Production
Promotions: Stealth, Dexterity, Security

Ecaz
Unit: Narcotics Dealer
Missions: Sell Shipment, Addict Worker, Establish Semuta Den (see below)
Promotions: Stealth, Dexterity, Escape Artist

Bene Gesserit
Unit 1: Acolyte
Missions: Political Marriage, Seduction
Promotions: Seduction, Stealth, Dexterity, Escape Artist, Loyalty, Security

Unit 2: Truthsayer (req Water of Life)
Missions: Annex City, Exert Influence, can see Invisible units, national limit of 2-3.
Promotions: Intrigue, Stealth, Dexterity, Escape Artist, Loyalty, Security

Fremen
Unit: Sandshadow
Missions: Steal Water (see below), Destroy Improvement
Promotions: Water Theft, Stealth, Dexterity, Escape Artist, Loyalty, Security

Ordos
Unit: Saboteur
Missions: Destroy Improvement, Destroy Building
Promotions: Stealth, Dexterity, Escape Artist

Atreides
Counter-espionage only, no spy unit
Duke's Bench now gives +25% espionage defence
Intelligence Post replaces Prison Camp, gives +25% espionage defence instead of -25% war weariness.



Building Changes
Prison camp: +6 EP, -25% war weariness, can turn 2 citizens into Spy.
Tribunal +2 EPs, -50% maintenance cost.
Assassin’s Bureau. +3 XP to newly created espionage units, +8 EPs.
Poison snooper: +25% espionage defense, +6 EPs
Hunter-seeker control. +10 EPs.
Saboteur defense. +50% espionage defense. +100% EPs. Created by Great Spy.
Political Center National Wonder now gives +4 EPs

Other stuff

Free Spymaster given at Covert Operations tech

New Mission Type(s)

I have successfully added a new espionage mission type for creating temporary buildings to the SDK. I am intending to use this for the Steal Water and Establish Semuta Den missions. This works by adding three fields to EspionageMissionInfos: CreateTargetBuildingType, CreatePlayerBuildingType and iCreateBuildingDuration.

For the Steal Water mission the values for these are:
Code:
<CreateTargetBuildingType>BUILDING_STOLEN_WATER_OUT</CreateTargetBuildingType>
<CreatePlayerBuildingType>BUILDING_STOLEN_WATER_IN</CreatePlayerBuildingType>
<iCreateBuildingDuration>3</iCreateBuildingDuration>
The effect of this (if the mission is successful) is to create a Stolen Water (Out) building in the target city (if it doesn't already have one) and a Stolen Water (In) building in the spy player's nearest city that doesn't already have one. These will both last for 3 turns (the iCreateBuildingDuration) after which they'll disappear. These screenshots show what this looks like in game (I can probably add a countdown of the turns remaining to the building hover-over popup):
Spoiler:



The +4 and -4 are obviously changeable in BuildingInfos XML.

The Establish Semuta Den mission uses the same tags but has these values:
Code:
<CreateTargetBuildingType>BUILDING_SEMUTA_DEN</CreateTargetBuildingType>
<CreatePlayerBuildingType>NONE</CreatePlayerBuildingType>
<iCreateBuildingDuration>-1</iCreateBuildingDuration>
The minus -1 means the building is permanent rather than temporary. I'll need to add a PrereqBonus to EspionageMissions to make sure that Semuta is available (i.e. you have a Semuta Supplier building).

Now that I have the SDK for adding new missions figured out, if there are other convincing ideas for additional espionage missions I should be able to implement them.

Anyway, I have the next few days free-ish to implement some of this so it would be good to have feedback. Tightening up the promotion aspects of the design would be good as well.
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Last edited by Deliverator; Aug 28, 2010 at 02:32 PM.
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Old Aug 26, 2010, 03:00 PM   #2
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Heh. I was just working on formalizing this myself.
I think one thing to do is also to tweak how the espionage buildings work, and where in the tech tree they appear; currently there's no particular logic between % bonuses vs straight +'s, and the espionage buildings are very heavily loaded towards the end of the tech tree.
And many buildings are boring, we could use a bit more variety.

For example:
Quote:
Internment camp: +6 EP, -25% war weariness
Assassin’s guild. +3 XP to newly created espionage units, +25% EPs.
Poison snooper: +25% espionage defense, +8 EPs
I'll add more to this when I have the Dunewars Civiliopedia in front of me, I forget the current buildings.

On this stuff:
Quote:
(The answer is yes; EspionageMissionInfos has a TechPrereq field.)
Awesome. Then potentially we could add a Plant Atomic to Ix, Tleilaxu, Harkonnen, Ordos, Corrino. [Out of character for others.]

Quote:
Harkonnen
Unit: Traitor
Missions: Lower Defenses (City Revolt)
Promotions: Increase city revolt time like current Instigator III.
I think a cheap secondary ability would be good too, but I can't think of a great one that's in theme.
With your new building mechanic, maybe some kind of Unrest building that creates say a +4 unhappiness building that lasts 10 turns?

Quote:
Corrino
Unit: Assassin
Missions: Assassinate Great Person, some kind of culture mission (?)
Promotions: Deception, Escape Artist, Improvise (Preparation)
I like "Imperial Operative" as a name, but assassin is also ok.
My thought of a second mission was to have:
Blackmail. Uses the existing Counterspionage mission, but also adds an enforced peace effect (same as a ceasefire) for 10 turns, so that you can't attack them. [But doesn't work if you're already at war.]

Alternatively, have it create a permanent -1 culture building in the city, which is destroyed if the city is conquered. Or use this for Bene Gesserit.
Or, a temporary -75% culture building?

Quote:
Tleilaxu
Unit: Face Dancer
Missions: Incite Anarchy (Destabilize), Cause Incident, Assassinate Great Person (Wanted to stick to stuff that Face Dancers actually do in the books rather than go down the biological plague type road again)
Promotions: Deception, Escape Artist, Improvise (Preparation)
Personally I think I prefer a biological theme. These are very generic.
I forget what Destabilize and Cause Incident do - can you remind please?
I'd prefer to have the missions be unique across factions - and Assassinate is already a very narrow thing. But I could go either way.
I see your point about sticking more to what they do in the books. But what facedancers do in the book is generic espionage, its just that they're very good at it.

Quote:
Ix
Unit: Hunter Drone (Let me know if you have a better name - it's a remote control type unit)
Missions: Destroy Unit (Vehicle/Mech/Thopter/Hornet), Acquire Technology
Promotions: Deception, Improvise (Preparation)
Will the AI really use a destroy vehicle ability? My thought for a second one was sabotage production.
I like the idea of making it a drone, that's cool and in our theme. Not sure that Hunter drone works best. Maybe just: Spy Drone?

Quote:
Ecaz
Unit: Narcotics Dealer
Missions: Sell Shipment (Steal Treasury) / Addict Worker (Bribe Worker) / Establish Semuta Den (see below)
Promotions: Deception, Escape Artist
This is actually the unit name I was going to propose, and a very similar Establish Semuta den mission. The current implementation doesn't really work, where the AI has to build them voluntarily. I wonder if the Semuta Den building should also have a -5% hammers penalty?
Not sure that Addict worker is very useful, but I guess it can't hurt much.
Giving them steal treasury is good, and in theme.

Quote:
Bene Gesserit
Unit: A couple from Acolyte/Sister/Concubine/Truthsayer
Missions: Cause Incident / Political Marriage (Is there a better name still?) / Annex City
Promotions: Increase success chances
I think its still interesting to split this into two units.

My concept had a Sister/Concubine unit as the normal spy unit. This has the Political Marriage ability, and maybe a (very cheap) Intrigue ability that creates a permanent building that causes -1 culture (or maybe -10% culture).

And then a Reverend Mother/Truthsayer unit at Water of Life tech that has the Annex City ability and maybe the faction-wide anarchy ability, and can see invisible units (lets you kill spies when you're at war), but with a national limit of 2-3.

Quote:
Fremen
Unit: Sandshadow (My punt at a Fremen-sounding spy unit name)
Missions: Steal Water (see below)
Promotions: Deception, Escape Artist, Improvise (Preparation)
The name is interesting. I just had Raider, but I guess we have a raider unit, so lets use yours.

The water stealing is interesting. Should it be flat, or a %?

Quote:
Ordos
Unit: Saboteur
Missions: Destroy Improvement / Destroy Building
Promotions: Deception, Escape Artist, Improvise (Preparation)
Agreed.

Quote:
Atreides
Counter-espionage only
Ahriman: UBs with higher EP output (maybe an Internment camp replacement?) so that passive benefits are gained faster and enemy missions are made more expensive.
I think an Internment camp UU replacement would be good; make it give an EP output and provide +25% espionage defense.

Quote:
* Annex City (v,d): requires Diplomat, cost 3000, difficulty 50
I'm worried about difficulty 50. Does this mean 50% chance of failure?
If you're spending thousands of EP's, it'd better work, otherwise its a huge gamble.

I think one really key thing is to make sure that each unit has one cheap always useful ability, and then in most cases one more expensive ability that is powerful but can be more specialized.

So I also suggest that we really reduce the costs of a lot of these missions.
Steal Treasury: cost 150
Destroy Improvement: cost 50
Assassinate specialist, cost 350
Steal Water, cost 150

Lets also see what we can do with promotions.
If we're limiting missions to UUs, do we need promotions to enable them?
Are there interesting ways in which we can boost effects with promotions?
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Old Aug 26, 2010, 03:02 PM   #3
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Impressed by the design, ESPECIALLY waterstealer and semuta den. Glad to see the removed missions as well. RE: BG 'Political Marriage' - could be 'Influence Politics' ?
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Old Aug 26, 2010, 03:08 PM   #4
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Quote:
RE: BG 'Political Marriage' - could be 'Influence Politics' ?
I really think that Political Marriage works well.
Though I guess the best example for this from the books (Jessica and Leto) isn't marriage.
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Old Aug 26, 2010, 03:39 PM   #5
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On promotions:
We could govern all the various missions (and make it very easy to display what missions are available to a given spy) through a promotion for each type.

So, the Saboteur unit starts with the Sabotage promotion, which enables the Sabotage Improvement mission and the Sabotage Building mission.

This would improve transparency; its too hard atm to see what missions are available to what unit - you have to go digging in Civilopedia and hoping that the right info is there.

These standard promotions seem ok:
* Deception I,II,III: +10% defense against detection ("detection evasion")
* Escape Artist I,II: +40% to survive upon mission failure
* Improvise I,II,III: +20% success rate ("free preparation bonus")
* Loyalty: never reveals nationality, prevents -1 diplomatic penalty upon capture
* Security I,II,III: +1 visibility range, +10% spy detection bonus, +50% counterespionage bonus

Are there any of the specific missions that might logically be boosted by particular promotions?
We could have the Instigator promotion that required the Treason promotion (which the Traitor starts with) that increased the city anarchy time to 2 turns.

We could have a Raider promotion that required the Sandshadow promotion that enabled an Advanced Water Theft mission that stole 6 water per turn. And similar for other missions.
But thats clunky.

We could also make an Atomic Agent (needs better name) promotion, that enabled a Plant Atomic Device mission, and was a level-up selectable promotion that required either the Treason, Sabotage, Assassin, or Shapeshifter promotions to select.
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Old Aug 26, 2010, 03:41 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahriman View Post
I like "Imperial Operative" as a name, but assassin is also ok.
My thought of a second mission was to have:
Blackmail. Uses the existing Counterspionage mission, but also adds an enforced peace effect (same as a ceasefire) for 10 turns, so that you can't attack them. [But doesn't work if you're already at war.]
"Imperial Operative" is a better name IMO. I really like the idea for Blackmail. Reminds me of Hasimir Fenring from the book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahriman View Post
I wonder if the Semuta Den building should also have a -5% hammers penalty?
Probably a good idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahriman View Post
I think its still interesting to split this into two units.

My concept had a Sister/Concubine unit as the normal spy unit. This has the Political Marriage ability, and maybe a (very cheap) Intrigue ability that creates a permanent building that causes -1 culture (or maybe -10% culture).

And then a Reverend Mother/Truthsayer unit at Water of Life tech that has the Annex City ability and maybe the faction-wide anarchy ability, and can see invisible units (lets you kill spies when you're at war), but with a national limit of 2-3.
I like the 2 unit approach. Another possibility for the Intrigue ability could be to "steal" a small amount of espionage points. I like the idea of the RM/T unit having a national limit.
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Old Aug 26, 2010, 03:47 PM   #7
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I think if the incitement ability is what I think (lowers relations between enemy AIs) then it would be an interesting thing for BGs to be about improving relations, while Facedancers (or Corrino! - playnig off the Great Houses against each other is very thematic) were about harming them.

A nice contrast.
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Old Aug 26, 2010, 03:55 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahriman View Post
Awesome. Then potentially we could add a Plant Atomic to Ix, Tleilaxu, Harkonnen, Ordos, Corrino. [Out of character for others.]
Quote:
Lets also see what we can do with promotions.
If we're limiting missions to UUs, do we need promotions to enable them?
Are there interesting ways in which we can boost effects with promotions
At the moment EspionageMissions can have Tech Prereqs and Promotion Prereqs.

Promotions can have the following things as Prereqs right now: other Promotions, a Tech, Civilizations (can be multiple), Civics (can be multiple), a State Religion, a Bonus.

So for example we could have a Promotion that is only available to some civs that enables the Plant Atomic mission. We can use the AutoAcquire flag to have this Promotion applied to spy units for these civs, or just give it as a free promo to certain units.

Quote:
With your new building mechanic, maybe some kind of Unrest building that creates say a +4 unhappiness building that lasts 10 turns?
Spread Lies or Misinformation. Could be negative production % and unhappiness.

Quote:
I like "Imperial Operative" as a name, but assassin is also ok.
I'd like to remove the use of the word Imperial from Corrino and use Sardaukar everywhere instead - so Imperial Trooper becomes Sardaukar Trooper. My thinking is that it is better to keep the term "Imperial" for the religion - it is confusing when Imperial Diplomat is the missionary for the Imperial religion to have "Imperial" Corrino UUs. Perhaps Sardaukar Agent could work for the Corrino spy. In the fiction, after Paul beats Shaddam the Corrino are no longer truly Imperial but they still have access to the Sardaukar. We should of the Corrino theme as being political influence and the Sardaukar IMO.

Quote:
I forget what Destabilize and Cause Incident do - can you remind please?
Destabilize puts the target civ into anarchy for a couple of turns hence my rename to Incite Anarchy.

Cause Incident allows you to degrade diplo relations between the target civ and another civ of your choosing. Personally, I quite like this one although perhaps the negative effect could be a touch stronger. Seems like a good fit for Face Dancers - they pretend to be someone that they're not and cause all kinds of problems.

Quote:
Will the AI really use a destroy vehicle ability? My thought for a second one was sabotage production.
Haven't looked into the AI for this yet, but I understand that this is a vanilla mission so there is a decent chance it will use it. We could have both sabotage production AND destroy vehicle for this.

Quote:
Spy Drone
Done.

Quote:
I wonder if the Semuta Den building should also have a -5% hammers penalty?
We could do. Might make the AI even less likely to build it (although I have seen it with a fair few at times). If it is to negative then Semuta as trade good becomes unattractive.

Quote:
The water stealing is interesting. Should it be flat, or a %?
Well, the concept is that the same quantity of water is being taken from one city to another. You don't really get that with a negative % at the target and a positive % in the spy owner's city.

I used buildings for this as they are really flexible - it means we can represent piping any yield or commerce type from the target city to one of your own and do all the other things buildings can do too if you want.

Quote:
I'm worried about difficulty 50. Does this mean 50% chance of failure?
If you're spending thousands of EP's, it'd better work, otherwise its a huge gamble.
Not sure exactly. I'll look into the code.
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Old Aug 26, 2010, 04:07 PM   #9
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Quote:
We can use the AutoAcquire flag to have this Promotion applied to spy units for these civs, or just give it as a free promo to certain units.
I was thinking it might be good to deliberately make it a level-up promotion.

This has the advantages that:
a) Neophyte spies can't do it. They need to have performed another mission first, or to be built in a city with an Assassin's guild.
b) The player actively realizes that they have gained the ability to use a new mission they didn't have before.
The disadvantage is, less likely for the AI to use it unless its a highly weighted promotion.

Quote:
Spread Lies or Misinformation. Could be negative production % and unhappiness.
I like it. Either name.

Quote:
I'd like to remove the use of the word Imperial from Corrino and use Sardaukar everywhere instead
Good idea! Also helps make clear that Sardaukar Cooperation is required.

Quote:
Sardaukar Agent
Yes, or Sardaukar Operative? Either way.

Quote:
Cause Incident allows you to degrade diplo relations between the target civ and another civ of your choosing. Personally, I quite like this one although perhaps the negative effect could be a touch stronger. Seems like a good fit for Face Dancers - they pretend to be someone that they're not and cause all kinds of problems.
Agreed, though again it also sounds like a good ability for Corrino, playing Houses off against each other. Either way.

Quote:
We could have both sabotage production AND destroy vehicle for this.
Maybe. They're both generically useful, so it seems harmless to have both, as long as the AI will use both and not just decide that one mission is always better value for money than the other and use that.

Quote:
We could do. Might make the AI even less likely to build it (although I have seen it with a fair few at times). If it is to negative then Semuta as trade good becomes unattractive.
I think its confusing to have a Semuta Den that is both implanted by Spy mission *and* something that we expect the AI to build sometimes, and that the human player might want to build.
I suggest that if we're going to establish Dens through espionage, we probably want to make it a clear penalty (eg -1 gold, -5% production, +1 gold in Semuta dealer city), and not have it something that is buildable anymore.
But then I guess that makes the Contract building feel weird, because we don't need the resource anymore.

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Well, the concept is that the same quantity of water is being taken from one city to another. You don't really get that with a negative % at the target and a positive % in the spy owner's city.
Good point. Flat amount it is.

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I used buildings for this as they are really flexible - it means we can represent piping any yield or commerce type from the target city to one of your own and do all the other things buildings can do too if you want.
Yes, there is a *ton* of flexibility here.
The only problem is that the AI won't understand the effectiveness of the mission (it can't evaluate the buildings being created) but if there are only a couple of mission choices, it shoudln't be too hard to force them to use building creation missions.
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Old Aug 26, 2010, 08:10 PM   #10
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Tweaked versions of the espionage buildings (plus the existing great wonders):

Prison camp: +6 EP, -25% war weariness, can turn 2 citizens into Spy.
Tribunal +2 EPs, -50% maintenance cost.
Assassin’s Bureau. +3 XP to newly created espionage units, +8 EPs.
Poison snooper: +25% espionage defense, +6 EPs
Hunter-seeker control. +10 EPs.

Saboteur defense. +50% espionage defense. +100% EPs. Created by Great Spy.

But it still feels like we're missing something, maybe something small in the early game, or something in between the prison camp and the Assassin Bureau
Do we need a new building?
Or are there any existing buildings where we could logically add EPs?
Or maybe there are 1-2 places where we could add a free great spy to the first to research? Mind training?

For Atredies, currently we have the Duke's Bench with is a Tribunal with 2 extra EPs.
I'd be more inclined to have it give +25% espionage defense.

Could we have an Ordos UB somewhere that gave some extra EPs, particularly since
Ordos feel pretty weak atm; we never implemented a Deviator, and they have very few UUs. All it has is the Trike, which is good, but rapidly outclassed, and the Chem trooper, which fails in its design purpose (we should probably make it strength 5, +100% attack vs melee and guardsmen. It should be an offensive unit that needs to be defended against with vehicles, not a stack guard)
An EP providing UB would be really nice.
Maybe a University replacement? Or a Bank replacement? Something that emphasizes their techno-raider mercenary theme.
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Old Aug 27, 2010, 06:05 AM   #11
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I'd like to remove the use of the word Imperial from Corrino and use Sardaukar everywhere instead - so Imperial Trooper becomes Sardaukar Trooper.
I still agree in general, but I think the Trooper should be one exception.

The idea for this unit was that this was part of the normal Imperial army, made up of levies from all the Houses. [Remember the "where do the Sardaukar come from?" "The Emperor's levies" conversation in Dune]
These aren't super-elite Sardaukar, so I think it would be better to not name them that.
So if we want to remove "Imperial" from the name, I'd call them "Levy Trooper" or something similar.
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 07:19 AM   #12
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wow thats an exciting planing!
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 12:27 PM   #13
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After a heroic effort this is implemented in 1.9 Beta I. I really haven't been able to test everything completely so I'm hoping some of you guys will help me out.
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 02:16 PM   #14
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Wasn't sure what to do with the Counterespionage mission so ATM all spy units can perform it.
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Old Aug 28, 2010, 02:34 PM   #15
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ill start a game tomorrow and report!

superb work d'!
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Old Sep 03, 2010, 12:33 AM   #16
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We could make the Counterespionage mission be enabled by the Security I promotion. With the new set-up that would mean it wouldn't be available to the Traitor, Narcotics Dealer and Saboteur units.
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Old Sep 03, 2010, 06:15 AM   #17
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We could make the Counterespionage mission be enabled by the Security I promotion
This seems plausible.

My main worry with including counterespionage is that the AI won't understand the other missions but will understand this one, and so will spend its EPs here.

I also suggest that Seduce Leader becomes Seduce Nobleman. We don't want to make it seem like they're necessarily actually seducing the faction leaders. I'm not sure that Irulan or Wencisca or Roma (or heck, Rhombur anymore or the Baron) really swing that way.
And can we find where we need to add description text for a mission so that it shows up on the mission button?

Example:
Spoiler:



Some text in the Dune concepts section of the Civilopedia will be good, but this is where its really needed.

Also: the Seduction promotion text is redundant.
It says: Enables political marriage. Enables Seduce leader. Enables political marriage and seduce leader.
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Old Sep 03, 2010, 06:25 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Ahriman
My main worry with including counterespionage is that the AI won't understand the other missions but will understand this one, and so will spend its EPs here.
I need to look at the AI for the missions, I'm sure it can't be too hard to add in the new missions and give them sufficient weight.

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Originally Posted by Ahriman
And can we find where we need to add description text for a mission so that it shows up on the mission button?
Yes, it's straightforward it's just not done yet.

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Originally Posted by Ahriman
Enables political marriage. Enables Seduce leader. Enables political marriage and seduce leader.
For some reason I got confused and create separate help text where it wasn't needed - easy to remove.
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Old Sep 03, 2010, 07:04 AM   #19
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I need to look at the AI for the missions, I'm sure it can't be too hard to add in the new missions and give them sufficient weight.
Quote:
Yes, it's straightforward it's just not done yet.
Awesome. I am really enjoying a manipulative game playing as BG. We might need to tone down the Seduction promotions, so Seduction 2 gives extra length for Seduce Noble mission while Seduction 3 gives extra effect to Political Marriage.

But I still haven't had the AI use any espionage against me yet.
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Old Dec 21, 2010, 09:39 PM   #20
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I *love* this part of Dune Wars! However, it's not clear in the Civilopedia, so I'm worried it's lost on most people learning the mod. Right now you have to sift through the espionage units' promotions to figure out the basic concept, and even then, there's no description of what the different missions do. At some point, I hope espionage will get more thorough documentation and its own entry in the Dune Wars Concepts section. It certainly deserves it, since it single-handedly makes BTS's horrible espionage system worthwhile.

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