Are you sticking with civ4?

fathertuck

Warlord
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Aug 28, 2010
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Are you going to continue playing civ4 after civ5 comes out? There's no way my computer's going to run civ5, and I'm not going to buy a new one just because of that. I hate to admit it, but hopefully as many as possible are in the same position as me. :mischief:
 
I won't buy it before I can get the complete game in a manner that won't make me feel milked like a cow.

Complex games usually need months or years of tweaking anyway... so if they want to play silly marketing games I'll just wait until I can pick up a complete, mature, balanced and refined game from the bargain bin. Their loss.
 
Well, I've already pre-purchased CIV 5 after the D2d deal this week and expect to tool around for it a bit. However, CIV 4 is such a great game that I expect to still be playing it for years. 5 will be different in many ways, so I just expect to treat them like 2 separate games. I don't see why CIV4 won't look good for many years to come, unlike III which is just hard to look at now.
 
I can't say I'll go V instantly, but I'm really tired of the fact that they never finished IV, too.

Current 3.19 BTS civ IV is about the quality of a late beta game (although that might be generous), but it's been over 5 years since release. That pisses me off badly, and it might be the wallet talking ultimately. V better show hard evidence that unlike IV, it's actually finished.

Civ IV features that were never finished:

- Vassal state mechanics
- Diplo resolution coding for AI (having it pick from available resolutions at RANDOM is NOT complete)
- Apostolic palace in general (they even admitted that this was not tested competently)
- Unit selection and unselection (you'd think something so basic wouldn't be a total fail after 5 years)
- Unit auto-movement at start of turn, disregarding orders or attempts to change them entirely
- Declaring war, by accident, without prompt
- Coding so that the game is NOT more resource-intensive than graphics whore shooters released years later
- AI strategy (why is it that only in BBAI does the AI try actively toward any victory condition other than culture, which was only added in BTS?).
- GUI. Not only does the GUI under-inform players, but it LIES OUTRIGHT. How is it that this community finds a LYING GUI acceptable in ANY context? Ignorance? Apathy? A golden perception of a beta game that's sold so much? I don't get it.
- Gameplay that is not consistent with stated game rules.
- Spawn balance
- Speed scaling, and diplo code like peace treaties.

That's not even getting into issues like civ balance and tweaks that make sense as post-release fixes. Glaring game interface issues are NOT something that should be in release versions of games. Neither are controls or an incomplete single player experience (that would never bet completed by the company). Having the game's interface lie to us outright on top of that is a major slap in the face and I am frankly amazed at this community's tolerance for a game that is top tier in concept but also carries flaws that are comparable to titles reviewed by the angry video game nerd as among the worst games ever made. It shouldn't be hard to select a unit in modern games, people.
 
Are you going to continue playing civ4 after civ5 comes out? There's no way my computer's going to run civ5, and I'm not going to buy a new one just because of that. I hate to admit it, but hopefully as many as possible are in the same position as me. :mischief:

I just upgraded my PC a few months ago. It has a windows rating of 5.9 so it should laugh in the face of the game's puny min specs. Mwuhahahaha.

I will not be sticking to Civ 4 but will stil play it as my weekly clan game is sticking to 4BTS for the forseeable future.
 
I won't buy it before I can get the complete game in a manner that won't make me feel milked like a cow.

Complex games usually need months or years of tweaking anyway... so if they want to play silly marketing games I'll just wait until I can pick up a complete, mature, balanced and refined game from the bargain bin. Their loss.

You do have a point here. I actually played civ3conq for the longest time because my laptop couldn't run civ4, and when I finally upgraded my computer BtS had come out so I missed all those funny bugs on the way. :lol:
 
I can't say I'll go V instantly, but I'm really tired of the fact that they never finished IV, too.

Current 3.19 BTS civ IV is about the quality of a late beta game (although that might be generous), but it's been over 5 years since release. That pisses me off badly, and it might be the wallet talking ultimately. V better show hard evidence that unlike IV, it's actually finished.

Civ IV features that were never finished:

- Vassal state mechanics
- Diplo resolution coding for AI (having it pick from available resolutions at RANDOM is NOT complete)
- Apostolic palace in general (they even admitted that this was not tested competently)
- Unit selection and unselection (you'd think something so basic wouldn't be a total fail after 5 years)
- Unit auto-movement at start of turn, disregarding orders or attempts to change them entirely
- Declaring war, by accident, without prompt
- Coding so that the game is NOT more resource-intensive than graphics whore shooters released years later
- AI strategy (why is it that only in BBAI does the AI try actively toward any victory condition other than culture, which was only added in BTS?).
- GUI. Not only does the GUI under-inform players, but it LIES OUTRIGHT. How is it that this community finds a LYING GUI acceptable in ANY context? Ignorance? Apathy? A golden perception of a beta game that's sold so much? I don't get it.
- Gameplay that is not consistent with stated game rules.
- Spawn balance
- Speed scaling, and diplo code like peace treaties.

That's not even getting into issues like civ balance and tweaks that make sense as post-release fixes. Glaring game interface issues are NOT something that should be in release versions of games. Neither are controls or an incomplete single player experience (that would never bet completed by the company). Having the game's interface lie to us outright on top of that is a major slap in the face and I am frankly amazed at this community's tolerance for a game that is top tier in concept but also carries flaws that are comparable to titles reviewed by the angry video game nerd as among the worst games ever made. It shouldn't be hard to select a unit in modern games, people.

I don't think there's a bug free game on the market today, but they should get fixed in a resonable time. Why Firaxis have failed to do so beats me.
 
Despite the flaws in CIV4, I am in no hurry to even try CIV5. Obviously, there will be bigs in it but more specifically, the mods developed for CIV4 remain interesting and I am extremely skeptical about the proposed combat system and lack of unit stacking in CIV5.
 
I don't think there's a bug free game on the market today, but they should get fixed in a resonable time. Why Firaxis have failed to do so beats me.

There's a line between "bug" and "game-breaking flaw", and some of what I listed crosses it. Rather than correct these issues, the past 3 patches have done things like INTRODUCE bugs into overflow, spread culture missions, and "balance" the game by making barb galleys spawn 4x as often. Yeah, THOSE were DEFINITELY priorities over unit selection working and having the victory conditions balanced. Absolutely...provided you're on some kind of illegal substance.

Sure, every game has bugs, but most post-release games that anybody considers good do not carry high-impact flaws with direct gameplay for years.

Starcraft II has been out for one month and is already a more complete game, despite some balance issues (which can't even touch the singular issue with spawn balance in civ IV, mind you), but even if we ignore a model company, games like the much-maligned call of duty: MW2 have fewer bugs (and some of them were actually patched in timely fashion), LESS (though not 0) interface lies to the player, and better resource optimization. In fact most games that are rated as "good" manage a FAR better handling of bugs than civ IV, and did it years and years sooner, usually by the time they were released.

Maybe it's because the guys rating civ IV don't understand the game at all (Inca being called one of the worst civs is a prime example). Maybe it's ignorance/apathy from the community. Maybe it's the game version of "beer goggles", and most people somehow think this game is well-made. Maybe its the sad lack of good TBS competition at the moment. I don't know.

What I do know is that civ IV is OBJECTIVELY an incomplete game, and they're releasing a sequel in 22 days. I have serious issues with that, and frankly I'm somewhat appalled that I am in the minority in that regard. There is a reason that most of my youtube videos have gone over to starcraft 2, and that is because it is a LOT less frustrating to play it. Things like the apostolic palace and the ridiculously flawed diplo engine in this game make the cheesiest proxy gateways, 6 pools, and turtlewalls look like 100% fun and balanced things to counter. Bad as proxy gateway is (it's being patched in 1.1 WHAT A CONCEPT), it is nowhere near the imbalance and stupidity of the AP...and yet look! They're already tweaking its impact on the game in 1 month.

Civ IV brought us a patch with attention to relative spawn positions (and not just the broken capitol evaluation) by...oh wait, they *never* did that. Okay, but at least they fixed unit selection finall...aw hell. It's ok though, because in the vaunted BTS expansion they finally added strategy to the AI for each VC rather than slapping on mass bonu...wait no, that was Jdog and his betterAI team. BTS only taught the AI to stop tech and vassal whore itself for culture, none of the other VCs are even actively considered. Well, at least they made SURE the correct code for overflow in the unofficial patch was not implemented in 3.19 and left it that way officially :sad:.

See a pattern here? It's not a pattern you see from GOOD companies that make GOOD games.

Not fixed in 5 years. Not ever going to be fixed, by the looks. Good companies fix things in their games, especially gameplay-breaking things. As much as I've loved civ over the time I've been here, every stack-move with a worker, every worker moving into known danger w/o interruption, every BS accidental DoW, every game I've had to deal with a GUI that lies to me has taken a toll. The guys in charge have made it clear they care more about bells and whistles than actual, BASIC gameplay, and that is an excruciatingly unfortunate decision in a strategy game (or any game for that matter).
 
Complex games usually need months or years of tweaking anyway... so if they want to play silly marketing games I'll just wait until I can pick up a complete, mature, balanced and refined game from the bargain bin. Their loss.

I agree completely!
 
I'll be waiting at least a year. I'll need a PC upgrade also.
 
I can't say I'll go V instantly, but I'm really tired of the fact that they never finished IV, too.

Current 3.19 BTS civ IV is about the quality of a late beta game (although that might be generous), but it's been over 5 years since release. That pisses me off badly, and it might be the wallet talking ultimately. V better show hard evidence that unlike IV, it's actually finished.
I think you stated it rather harshly, but I broadly agree. I think BTS, as it is, is a great game. But I also find it very frustrating that there are so many problems that have been left unaddressed. Unofficial patches and balance mods can fix many of the problems, but they have the undesirable effect of splitting the player-base.

I feel that Civ4 could really benefit from just a small amount of additional official support. There are many well known bugs and balance problems in Civ4 which could be fixed quickly and easily.

Civ4 is quite old, but I don't see that as a reason to abandon it. Diablo 2 and Warcraft 3 are both older than Civ4, and both have received official patches this year, both including bug fixes and balance updates. And Valve's games on Steam seem to receive patches very often indeed. Civ4 still has a strong player-base. If it was still being supported, that would be a good sign for the long term future of Civ5.
 
There's a line between "bug" and "game-breaking flaw", and some of what I listed crosses it. Rather than correct these issues, the past 3 patches have done things like INTRODUCE bugs into overflow, spread culture missions, and "balance" the game by making barb galleys spawn 4x as often. Yeah, THOSE were DEFINITELY priorities over unit selection working and having the victory conditions balanced. Absolutely...provided you're on some kind of illegal substance.

Sure, every game has bugs, but most post-release games that anybody considers good do not carry high-impact flaws with direct gameplay for years.

Starcraft II has been out for one month and is already a more complete game, despite some balance issues (which can't even touch the singular issue with spawn balance in civ IV, mind you), but even if we ignore a model company, games like the much-maligned call of duty: MW2 have fewer bugs (and some of them were actually patched in timely fashion), LESS (though not 0) interface lies to the player, and better resource optimization. In fact most games that are rated as "good" manage a FAR better handling of bugs than civ IV, and did it years and years sooner, usually by the time they were released.

Maybe it's because the guys rating civ IV don't understand the game at all (Inca being called one of the worst civs is a prime example). Maybe it's ignorance/apathy from the community. Maybe it's the game version of "beer goggles", and most people somehow think this game is well-made. Maybe its the sad lack of good TBS competition at the moment. I don't know.

What I do know is that civ IV is OBJECTIVELY an incomplete game, and they're releasing a sequel in 22 days. I have serious issues with that, and frankly I'm somewhat appalled that I am in the minority in that regard. There is a reason that most of my youtube videos have gone over to starcraft 2, and that is because it is a LOT less frustrating to play it. Things like the apostolic palace and the ridiculously flawed diplo engine in this game make the cheesiest proxy gateways, 6 pools, and turtlewalls look like 100% fun and balanced things to counter. Bad as proxy gateway is (it's being patched in 1.1 WHAT A CONCEPT), it is nowhere near the imbalance and stupidity of the AP...and yet look! They're already tweaking its impact on the game in 1 month.

Civ IV brought us a patch with attention to relative spawn positions (and not just the broken capitol evaluation) by...oh wait, they *never* did that. Okay, but at least they fixed unit selection finall...aw hell. It's ok though, because in the vaunted BTS expansion they finally added strategy to the AI for each VC rather than slapping on mass bonu...wait no, that was Jdog and his betterAI team. BTS only taught the AI to stop tech and vassal whore itself for culture, none of the other VCs are even actively considered. Well, at least they made SURE the correct code for overflow in the unofficial patch was not implemented in 3.19 and left it that way officially :sad:.

See a pattern here? It's not a pattern you see from GOOD companies that make GOOD games.

Not fixed in 5 years. Not ever going to be fixed, by the looks. Good companies fix things in their games, especially gameplay-breaking things. As much as I've loved civ over the time I've been here, every stack-move with a worker, every worker moving into known danger w/o interruption, every BS accidental DoW, every game I've had to deal with a GUI that lies to me has taken a toll. The guys in charge have made it clear they care more about bells and whistles than actual, BASIC gameplay, and that is an excruciatingly unfortunate decision in a strategy game (or any game for that matter).

We can only speculate why the company has failed so badly when it comes to bug fixes. Patches usually fix bugs, not implement more of them. I always thought BTS/3.19 was the version with least bugs, but that doesn't seem to be the case based on what you wrote. Some minor bugs are easy to live with, but things that affect the gameplay is a different matter. They should definitly be corrected ASAP.

Unfortunately civ4 is the best TBS-game out there, so what can you do?
 
Well, the best TBS made anytime resembling current.

If you want to play some old but excellent TBS, look up warlords II/III by strategic studies group, or Heroes of Might and Magic III, which AFAIK is the best in the series.

They're not civ though and while they are excellent TBS, they don't cover strategy on this scale. I wish TBS were more popular as a genre.
 
@ TMIT:

I haven't played Starcraft 2, but the original was very focused on competitive multiplayer and needed to work on that level. Civ4 tries to appeal to a wide spectrum, and concessions need to be made. Apparently some of the horribly clunky mechanics were chosen because clean mechanics would not behave how people who cba to think would believe they should. Likewise, a strong and refined AI might alienate more players than it pleases... although I for one would like an honest single player challenge which would still allow me to play the same game as the competitors.
The interface issues and a few other things are inexcusable, but those would probably be fixed if we had a rabidly demanding fanbase in the first place.

*

In the end, what matters is whether a game is fun... and Civ4 is actually one of the more refined games I enjoy.
I still fire up Master of Magic once in a while, and people are still working on some much-needed patching 15 years after the release.
Dwarf Fortress may be the most enjoyable game I ever played... and it's very obviously still an alpha. Players need to be thankful their dwarves don't spontaneously melt in hot weather or actually realise when they're on fire, you can still make furnaces out of ice or decapitate people by throwing a silk sock at them and so on.

'Polished games' and 'games with incredible potential' unfortunately have very little overlap. Although it's a shame in the case of civ4 because there isn't so much underlying complexity that polish would be a lost cause.
 
Yeah, going to stick with IV, I feel they are going to be a bit different games, and I'm actually worried about some aspects of V.

I don't think V is a reason to abandon the best game ever that is Civilization IV (Complete).
 
Are you going to continue playing civ4 after civ5 comes out? There's no way my computer's going to run civ5, and I'm not going to buy a new one just because of that. I hate to admit it, but hopefully as many as possible are in the same position as me. :mischief:

I'll be sticking with Civ 4 until I get a good enough CPU for Civ V.
 
Till they make it for Mac, I have to stick with 4. Not a big deal, 4 is great.
 
I'll probably stick with both. CivIV and CivV appear to be pretty different games (much more than CivIII -> CivIV) and CivIV has a lot of great mods that increase the replay value massively.

That's pretty much enough to classify them as two games, instead of "just" a sequel. That both appear to be worth playing.

Cheers, LT.
 
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