Isolation problems, Elizabeth, Fractal, Monarch, Epic.

I started this game yesterday and i got elizabeth on a fractal map with random leaders.On turn seven, i came across Genghis Khan(Great ) and i managed to rush him. Before i rushed him however i found that i was on an island isolated with him (hence why i rushed him, because he's one of the games biggest psychopaths). I'm looking for advice on what to do next, i'm not too familiar with the isolated start.I have read r-rolo's guide (which is very good bdw), but i just cant seem to win a game when isolated and playing on Epic or normal ((i have won on marathon) (last time on normal speed i lost to a space race)). I'll might restart at 4000bc and do it again, if things continue to go bad for me, but i''m going to put up a two saves to see what you guys can do with them, one at 4000BC, one at 0335BC (a couple of turns after the rush, it took longer than usual because khan decided to build three cities and bunch up archers in them.)
I would Appreciate constructive feedback and even a few shadow games if you have the time. Thanks.
Here are the saves.

335BC seems a bit late for big decisions...

there are some things that help you in isolation, especially wonders. Great Lighthouse comes to mind.

Later I add more specific after I check the save.

hmm I checked the save.

Well the starting land is really poor, so you at least got much better land.
I don't know when you rushed and finished the rush, so dunno how long you run on your own.

You need immedietaly 3 more workers, at least!

I would stop improve those plains around London and send all work force to karakorum and chop the green riverside there and place there cottages (chop into workers first). Whip that monument on the east city!

You need to improve your commerce input and very quickly.
You will soon have problem with happy cap. I dont see there free happy except for that gold north (and that place has no visible food), but it would only deepen your problems going there with city. So you should immedietaly refocus to monarchy.

I dont grasp the city placing. You plan 2 cities 1 off coast. I understand you wanted to make fish+silk in 1 city, but you cant ever make there lighthouse for those fishes. Place it on the coast 1SE from fish, there is enough FP riverside to generate a lot commerce.

Dunno how much backwards you will be after finding the other continent. you have to fix things and pretty quickly.

Okay in spoiler advice

The idea about the Silk city was to turn it into a mega cottage/commerce city and utilize the floodplains. Trust me, you don't want to see how bad my tech was when i met the other AI's(They sent there boats to me, thats how bad it was). I played until the 1500's last night but i was doing so bad i just got fed up with it and decided to not save. I will restart this and place those cities properly. The tech picture when the other AI's met me was shocking. What techpath should i be taking?

stevoh said:

The idea about the Silk city was to turn it into a mega cottage/commerce city and utilize the floodplains. Trust me, you don't want to see how bad my tech was when i met the other AI's(They sent there boats to me, thats how bad it was). I played until the 1500's last night but i was doing so bad i just got fed up with it and decided to not save. I will restart this and place those cities properly. The tech picture when the other AI's met me was shocking. What techpath should i be taking?

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considering you will succesfully rush mongols again and quick! (hopefully before 1k BC)

well I would strongly consider some wonders and you will need monarchy anyway.
London is not on coast, so TGL would be a bit problematic.
But there is that marble on copper site... I could see Oracle->Monarchy wouldnt be probably that bad...

but let's see what will gumbolt say.

Oh man, I'm in the same situation as well, except I was isolated with Ghandi and took him out in the ADs with elepults. The difference is that I had an excellent bureaucracy capital site that pulled me through to Liberalism/Astronomy, Ghandi built the Great Lighthouse for me, and I managed to 2-pop whip out the Great Library using marble in my GP farm (base production of 2). I purposefully didn't build the National Epic there, and since scientific method, I've converted the city over into my Globe Theatre draft city (+14 food at size 5, good enough).

I'm kinda hijacking this thread, but how viable are redcoats and cannons in intercontinental warfare? I'm struggling a bit with logistics to hit Pacal, who has once again peacefully REXed out into 15 cities, peacevassalled Ramses, and is the score leader (I'm tech leader). They don't have replaceable parts nor military science, but I'd better get myself moving and decapitate their capital before they get there. Unfortunately, its 1-off the coast along the diagonal, meaning I'm going to be vulnerable if I do attack. Wars are hard.

Any units are viable in intercontinental warfare so long as you can get them onto the land. Just make certain you have enough stack defense for your galleons; I've seen AIs build some really absurd numbers of ships.

...and then leave them in dock when I take the city...

Also, there'll be a delay before you can get reinforcements in, so the army you send to start the war will be it for quite some time. Better make sure it's sufficient!

(Another fun one: Zara drops his Stack of Doom onto my shores (I was distracted taking over a different continent), and then sends his now-empty ~15 galleons + caravels to attack my destroyer, one by one. You would think he'd stop trying after awhile, but no, he sent every single one to its death.)

Nick Carpathia said:

Oh man, I'm in the same situation as well, except I was isolated with Ghandi and took him out in the ADs with elepults. The difference is that I had an excellent bureaucracy capital site that pulled me through to Liberalism/Astronomy, Ghandi built the Great Lighthouse for me, and I managed to 2-pop whip out the Great Library using marble in my GP farm (base production of 2). I purposefully didn't build the National Epic there, and since scientific method, I've converted the city over into my Globe Theatre draft city (+14 food at size 5, good enough).

I'm kinda hijacking this thread, but how viable are redcoats and cannons in intercontinental warfare? I'm struggling a bit with logistics to hit Pacal, who has once again peacefully REXed out into 15 cities, peacevassalled Ramses, and is the score leader (I'm tech leader). They don't have replaceable parts nor military science, but I'd better get myself moving and decapitate their capital before they get there. Unfortunately, its 1-off the coast along the diagonal, meaning I'm going to be vulnerable if I do attack. Wars are hard.

Click to expand...

Trust me getting ghandi is better than getting Khan as your neighbour. I have used normal rifles in isolation (NC Welliam) and they're quite good with cannons. Grendilers have a better counter to rifles and are better at attacking though, but you can't draft them.
You probably know this but TMIT has a LHC LP, which shows this and how he was able to take ragnar and churchil out in that game.

I was actually wrong about never winning on isolation, i have won on marathon(again nobles club Welliam) but not on normal or epic speed, so i'll edit that in my first post (i was tired anyway when i posted this thread)

I played until 25AD, i couldn't finish off khan as he settled a hill city with 50% city defenses and three archers, i didn't have enough axes to take him out, but he's no longer a threat. I am planning to move my cap to his old cap and turn it into a mega Bureaucracy site. I managed to get HR rule so i can grow my cities and cottage them. I'm a bit slow on putting out settlers though.Heres the save

I guess redcoats/cannons are fairly viable on intercontinental warfare, as long as you take care to smash their nastiest stack on turn 1-2 of the war, letting you trickle around small stacks of half a dozen troops. Logistics are a massive pain, I can't wait for the Civ 5 auto-transport version.

I haven't checked the save, but you've surely got an academy up and running? Liz is philosophical, better leverage it. Bureau + Academy + Oxford can account for nearly your entire beaker output early on, that could help the tech rate.

Okay new attempt was minorly better.

Capital is size 6. York Size 7. I still think 5 cities by 1ad isn't great. Yes you got York up as the second city great and some cottages. London is just a pain. Poor terrain and not good for much. I would of bulbed with the scientist.

It is sad you have not worked the marble and built a few wonders. You should be able to get Oracle. Or chop out axes very early on.

You perhaps need to build more settlers/workers earlier. The mongol capital is quite far off really. You have time to build a few cities. Then use catapults with axe.

It would be nice to see a good GP farm but I am struggling for a good location apart from York.

Here's another save,

hehe I told you that at the coast is good place...

I dont like the size of the new capital... you should redirect there some force to battle unhapiness.

Dunno how long you have Unis, but you should have whipped them soonish. No OU is fault too.

I kind of dont understand Academy in London together with HE...it doesnt make much sense.

If you manage to free that Iron mine blocked by GK, you can trade copper for 2 happy (fur and spices), btw why you traded silk for clam when you strive for happy cap?

that GK DoW is at bad time. i would switch to slavery and whip some LBs, you should use the gold to upgrade that warrior to spear at Karakorum.

You have serious tech lead so I think this is definitely winnable, but it will take time, since you have to fix some things.

the gold that GK holds would help you tremendously btw.

edit:

everything seems to me like it's done a bit later then it should be ok. I dont like the number of workers, they seem a bit deficient.

Relooked at York and I think he is too oversized at expense of your new cap. There really is no need to have it size 17 working 2 ocean tiles. Even those coast tiles are so-so, giving 3 commerce (it's something riverside cottage gives immediately). i would consider starving it a bit/make some specs and stop growing.

vranasm said:

hehe I told you that at the coast is good place...

I dont like the size of the new capital... you should redirect there some force to battle unhapiness.

Dunno how long you have Unis, but you should have whipped them soonish. No OU is fault too.

I kind of dont understand Academy in London together with HE...it doesnt make much sense.

If you manage to free that Iron mine blocked by GK, you can trade copper for 2 happy (fur and spices), btw why you traded silk for clam when you strive for happy cap?

that GK DoW is at bad time. i would switch to slavery and whip some LBs, you should use the gold to upgrade that warrior to spear at Karakorum.

You have serious tech lead so I think this is definitely winnable, but it will take time, since you have to fix some things.

the gold that GK holds would help you tremendously btw.

edit:

everything seems to me like it's done a bit later then it should be ok. I dont like the number of workers, they seem a bit deficient.

Relooked at York and I think he is too oversized at expense of your new cap. There really is no need to have it size 17 working 2 ocean tiles. Even those coast tiles are so-so, giving 3 commerce (it's something riverside cottage gives immediately). i would consider starving it a bit/make some specs and stop growing.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the comments vransam. I was originally going to use London as a GP farm but when i was checking what my most productive city was, it was London, so i put the HE there.I'm having a hard time getting it past size 13. The decision to move york to the coast was a great idea bdw, so thanks to you for that suggestion. I found it very funny when Genghis dowed on me, thats why i rushed him. He dosen't even have COL or monotheism, he has construction and HBR.
The Americans are the power on this map.I'm going to stay out of religion, and switch into free religion for the science boost and diplo. I'm just wondering, maybe i should have switched the cap to York instead. But Khans old cap is not bad.

I'm planning on a diplo UN win by taking giggles and Roosevelt or Agustus out with redcoats/ cannons. I'm worried about ship production, the iron city looks like a good place for that though.I'll try and get it to size 18. Do you have any suggestions on what techpath i should take next?

Planning for UN is a bit too soon, except you will make it domination way and then it's easier to vassalize everyone and let conquest or dom kick in.

you should try to finish GK quickly...to get finally your continent.

Techs...well it's complicated. There are 2 ways (as usual )

go for steel, build cannons, galleons and take other continents with muskets/rifles+cannons

or try to fix somewhat the eco. Getting Economics would be great. Roosevelt is probably on the banking->eco route, he already has guilds so you are in this race backwards.
Btw I would watch him closely, TMIT mentioned that AIs with vassals average their standings against you, so even if you are with roosevelt pleased (no DoW), but Ragnar worst enemy, so it's completely possible roosevelt can dow you (would be nice some confirmation from TMIT or someone else, since it's something new for me).

Diplo will be complicated. I would wait with what turns out Willem and his standings. Gilgamesh seems like your potential partner against roosevelt+ragnar block and would provide you needed beachhead for wars.

JC seems dangerous, nice ammount of cities, not that bad with techs off.

I see there a lot of tension through religions, so that's good for you since it's possible they will war each other.

Since you have no standing army i would focus on eco a bit with slow build up of units. But you need some serious kick in right NOW to get GK's land.

So I would tech for Eco (FM), you have astro so you get international trades. Then probably steel.
Would switch to slavery whip some units and get GK's land.
I dont see there good trade possibilities except for those resources I already wrote.

I dont know if it makes sense though so much thoughts... btw london is really terrible. (that actually is not your fault that much), but there are too many workers around.

Nottingham I would probably overdo to prod city. farm those FPs and grass, watermill those plains.

your commerce cities should get unis asap and observatories (whip whip). Since you have only 7 cities I wouldnt pressure much on Oxford uni, since you need prod. cities to work on units.

I dont see there better place for GP farm then Turfan (east) with fish+wheat, you should look at possibilities of irrigating that wheat+grass though, it seems a bit undoable :-(, so you would have to go with what you got.

played just few turns to show direction i would take.

I took only 1 city from GK, but since you have no cats it's probably maximum you could get. After some military buildup I would continue with the war.

I redid some improvements, so you can check how i would do it. Not saying it's the best way. Just to see more variants if you like them.

@stevoh: Had a look at your earlier saves and noticed a few things that may help – if not with this game (given that you’ve played on), then maybe a future map.

(i) IMHO, the key decision I’d question concerns the placement of the capital: specifically, I’d question why you originally settled on the plans cow (and then 1W of your start on the re-run) – which turned a reasonable (plains cow) tile when improved into something more mediocre. The reason I mention this is because the famed blue circle was actually suggesting that a move to a coastal location was more appropriate. Now, admittedly, that location didn’t have any seafood – but it did keep the two cows and wheat in the BFC. Moreover, as you can see from your warrior’s first move in the 4000BC save, it also nabbed a couple of floodplains (zoom right in and you can make them out). As a result, moving to the blue circle definitely made sense here IMHO – the only possible special resource loss you could see (since all other visible tiles are forested) was the unforested plains tile (which contained the marble) – which you were getting well compensated for if you elected to take a chance and move the settler IMHO.

(ii) The other thing to note about moving to a coastal location with Liz is that it opens up the possibility of building The Colossus here. Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not the world’s biggest fan of this wonder but, if built when you’re financial, it converts seafood tiles from their usual 2 (non-financial leader) into 4. Looking at how poor the land is here, that could be really helpful on this map.

(iii) Early chopping. Gumbolt’s nailed this one IMHO. With a capital as poor as this one – even after moving it’s not exactly stellar - chopping becomes key to enable you to settle and / or conquer better cities ASAP. That’s why you’ll see in the 1000BC save that I’ve attached below as an example, I chopped rather aggressively with this opening. Yes, it will cause a problem with health later on – but I have granaries, aqueducts and harbours that I can build to help out there (and harbours take me on a tech path via compass > optics and astronomy that I’ll want anyway). The result of all this is that at 1000BC (i) I’ve settled two cities (in addition to the capital) that helped with the axe build up (ii) GK is already dead and (iii) The Oracle is also in, so monarchy has been opened up to raise the happy cap (given the lack of happiness resources in reach). And I’m sure that many others will do all this far faster than I’ve managed.

(iv) Indeed, the rush could actually be sped up by altering the placement of the marble / copper city, which I’ve placed on the river to nab a few more farms for long term benefit. However, the city could easily be settled on the marble to enable access to the copper as soon as it is settled, rather than after a border pop.

Hope these thoughts help. Time permitting, I’ll take a look at your latest save later on – although Gumbolt and vranasm are doing a very good job analysing that one.

@Gumbolt / @vranasm / anyone else: (Spoilered because it relates to my 1000BC save, purely to avoid hijacking stevoh’s thread.)

i think it's perfectly clear and you nabbed it.

cottages at karakorum + monarchy, which you got from oracle.
since there will be no trading partner you have to calculate with your own forces.

Getting GL with marble seems like clear priority, but I would not underestimate math->cur->calendar (maybe first?)
Gold spots even if great (well not so much without food) are too far away and you need to cover the middle first.

I dont think that TGL is in the air.

btw that fish+wheat+cow spot is the only GP farm i see here. It's 5 scientists if everything works okish. too bad that wheat cant be easily irrigated.

First scientist could come out of London without much problem.

I would probably stay small for awhile with settling fish+fp and future gp farm relatively soonish. And then deeply think about the north.

btw since we already know that fish+whale where "C" is marked will be iron it could be good place too