Stack Move + Overcrowding, making armies easier to manage

Z

Zechnophobe

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Problem: 1UPT makes it hard to move around large armies. 20 units = 20 move commands, and pathing isn't generally good enough for long goto's of 20 units.

Solution Part 1: Units can stack more than 1UPT
Solution Part 2: If there are other units in a tile with you, your strength decreases, and you cannot ranged attack, due to 'overcrowding'.
Solution Part 3: Stacked units may be given move commands en masse, and will all move at once.

Outcome: During combat, it is still not reasonable to stack units, due to the penalties involved, but you can still ball them up for when they are on the march. It also makes it so that small movements of armies can be done a little bit more efficiently.

Thoughts?
 
well im not for unlimited units per tile. I don't want the stack of doom to return.
 
That's why he has combat penalty's. And he's absolutely right. Workers, Settlers, and Great People cause quite the headache, but just you wait until you have a 20+ army. And don't forget about oversea invasions, or simply surrounding an enemy's city with Workers so that he can never expand.
 
I think this would be the perfect solution.

Honestly 1 UPT will stay so this would be the max we could hope for.

It think it would also eliminate lots of AI problems we have cause of pathfinding.
 
i proposed a marching formation solution.
units in march formation can stack with other units in MF but can not stack with units in combat formation. they can not attack and suffer -75% strength penalty.

your solution is pretty good as well (and easier to program).
i'd also add a collateral damage to all units in the stack if it is being attacked.

those who want to work on such a mod please contact me. we can build a team to do this.
 
gonzo562 said:
well im not for unlimited units per tile. I don't want the stack of doom to return.
Click to expand...

unlimited units per tile was never a major cause of the "Stack of Doom." It was probably a 3rd or 4th minor reason at best.

That said, the current system simply would not work with such adjustments. The answer is to not play large games or use a lot of units, and if you do it's your choice and you should know going into it it will take a lot of time.
 
It would cut out some tedious moves if there was at least a way of selecting a group of units and telling them to move while keeping their current formation.
 
Attack penalty wouldn't be enough. 30 of anything with combat penalty would always beat a good positioned unit, so we would return to stacks.

But maybe we could transform out units into travel mode, where they are as civilian units. And of course allow stacking of civilian units.
 
what should really be done is given a grouping mechanic where you caan group your stuff together and move them all at once in some what a formation
 
Wulf38 said:
It would cut out some tedious moves if there was at least a way of selecting a group of units and telling them to move while keeping their current formation.
Click to expand...

That would probably be impossible to implement, unless the terrain was perfectly uniform.

How would you program it to deal with mountains and small lakes and other movement problems?

There needs to be a way to stack them temporarily for making large moves. Then there needs to be a way to keep you from fighting battles while stacked.
 
Just check each unit to see if it can legally make the move. If not, let the player do it manually. It will still save time in the common case where you're not trying to shove your army through a mountain pass.
 
I was thinking about this kind of stacking too, but it would make natural choke points useless, because an enemy can get their entire army across it in one turn when you were hoping to chop them down as they trickle through, like the battle of Thermopylae. Also, it's a problem if you get ambushed, or run into danger unexpectedly. You may not have time to redeploy. Then people who don't mind the micromanagement hell of army logistics would have an advantage over those who do.

I think if the pathfinding was improved we wouldn't need these workarounds. All you really want to do is give each unit it's final destination, be able to see a preview of what unit is going to end up where, and just have the AI take care of getting everyone there without bothering the player every time two paths cross at a chokepoint, because it can't deal with "stalling" units when required.
 
What i would do is to use great general to form army, and add formations options to him, or even allow him to setup troops in good direction, so moving general would mean moving whole army
 
Guys, stop asking for this and stop crying and go out and get used to it.
It didn't take me long before I got used to it and was seemlessly moving armies around, setting up emergency fronts and chokes, and swapping units around.
You need to stop thinking in the Civ IV mentality and get the hang of the new game. It doesn't take long... at least it didn't for me.
 
kaltorak said:
You are the only one whining here. This topic was proposing alternatives.
Click to expand...

Asking for limited stacking, move stacking, stack penalties and other methods for stacking. Any variations of stacking. Try thinking up other methods that keep with 1upt, rather than bend it.
 
I am in favor of the supply line concept. In real life, any battle needs a steady supply line. A huge army like the stack of doom needs huge quantity of food and ammunition. It is therefore necessary to guard the supply line in ancient or modern combat.

Implement a morale system. A stack of doom into enemy territory without units guarding the supply line will lose morale. Prolong cut off from the supply road will result in decrease combat ability and troop desertion.

This forces the stack of doom to spread out in a line on the road in city to city conquest. Over expansion thinning out the stack of doom making it less feasible.
 
My post was not complete then: i didnt meant any form of stacking. Just formation and general used to create it.
 
It's something that has been mentioned before, throughout varying topics, and I think it's an excellent idea: a combat penalty so that fighting while stacked would be a very bad idea (unless we're talking tanks vs. warriors). The ability to move them all at once is really the only thing I miss about stacked combat: it takes so much longer to move 20 units separately than 20 units in a stack.
kaltorak said:
Attack penalty wouldn't be enough. 30 of anything with combat penalty would always beat a good positioned unit, so we would return to stacks.

But maybe we could transform out units into travel mode, where they are as civilian units. And of course allow stacking of civilian units.
Click to expand...
Then the other option could be that while stacked, units are unable to attack (only defend). I don't think making them civilian units would be very good though: that would mean you could be ambushed and instantly lose 30 units (when you encounter areas with low visibility). At the very least, I don't see any reason why they made civilian units 1UPT: they're helpless anyhow. I miss being able to group workers together to build improvements that would normally take 9-10 turns: I don't see how it makes the game better to force improvements to take the longest time possible (with one worker).
 
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