Rise of Civilizations

Hi all,

Rise of civilizations is the final name for my mod.
Done so far:
Removed all civilizations from game.
Added european style and asian style civilizations (basic style and leaders, no special units, no special buildings, no traits).
All technologies available from start, but only from ancient to renaissance techs.
Palace now gives almost no bonuses.
One more unit (scout) available from start.

Hi all,

I know I won't probably get an answer, and any attention at all, but anyways, in order to advance this mod, I would need a bit of programming:
1- Every time a technology is discovered through research, another one of the not yet discovered technologies is RANDOMLY discarded, and won"t be researchable any more.
2- The cost to research a new technology increases a little bit every time I discover one (It should increase by 5 or 10 %, but no problem, once I see the code, I will tweak it myself )
2- A panel pops and says something like that: "while discovering the AAA technology, your civilization lost sight of the BBB technology." with a close button.

I think I will be able to do the others things, as I am learning from the mods available and the bits of coding in it.

Please, I now you programmers out there must already be working on some big projects, but this is the only unlocking part I need for this mod...

I think it is now time to learn programming. Seriously modding a game requires time and a few ideas outlined in a forum will never be enough to entice someone with the skill to do it to join you. So first, I think you'll have to show you can get some things done by yourself.

Anyway, have you pondered how the modifications you are proposing change the game balance? Not all techs are equally useful following your game style, your current location with useful happiness and/or strategic resources...
Randomly discarding a tech seems to me at best a dubious gameplay change considering that the tech discarded might something as useful as mining, quarrying (hum not sure of the translation for the one required to use marble). Hum actually, every single tech in the game is useful and might be beelined to get an advantage. If I'm near cotton resources, I'll certainly research calendar much quicker than if I discover tons of iron near Rome. So discarding for unknown reasons a random tech once a new one is discovered is a pretty curious idea in my humble opinion. It might be fun and force the player to discover new ways to play, but I fear it might just cripple a game.

Well, at least, thanks for your interest .

You might want to check the link in my signature, that will lead you to the mod I created for civ 4. I do know XML, created quite a lot of stuff for it in my previous mod, although XML can't be considered as programming IMO.
Anyways, I also know a bit of C++, And I am already learning lua through the mods other ppl are releasing.

But doing the mentioned stuff (random discarding) will probably take me weeks of harduous tries, while it would probably take no more than a few hours for a decent coder to achieve the same result...

As for the interest, indeed, this "system" utterly changes the way civ is played. My "age of civilisations" links to a thread that details all this, and all the techs that were added to the game.
No more "everybody ends the same" in ROC, but everybody ends totally different ^^. For me, I always feel amazed when I see the difference between, say, aztec, viking, franks, zulus, mongols, berbers, boshimans... The goal of ROC is to achieve this richness in differences between civilisations, the game ending in early gunpowder. Not all civilizations were good at iron working (aztec didn't work iron, while vikings were pretty good at it), nor good at constructions (aztecs created HUGE temples, while vikings didn't...), but it didn't prevent neither the aztecs nor the vikings, each in their own ways, to reach the rank of great civilizations...

So you could consider that ROC is a "design your own" civ, but where you will have to adapt, and do your best with what discoveries your people will do (or, more exactly, won't do anymore...)

seems really interesting..
I'll go look at the cIV one... as I don't have ciV yet
I always wanted a mod like that... since CII. (well, since Master of Orion II that almost did the same thing : can search one of 3 tech each time, 1 is chosen, 1 might be proposed once more, and 1 you never see proposed again... But you when you chose, you don't know which one will be discarded.)

well. I think the "random" is a bit hard but maybe it's the only real way of doing it.
(And I would love choices like lighter than air vs heavier than air / or lighter than water (submarine/whale) vs heavier than water (torpedoes-like submarines/sharks..)
or going from small bows to recurve or to longbows or to crossbow ; then if you have th early crossbow would you perfect them with quick-reload crossbow (that never really existed save in really modern sport/hunting) or multi-bolts corssbows or would you rather go to the early arqubus ?

Will you take the path of the gatling ? the mitrailleuse ? or a submachine-gun ?

etc.
etc.

I read the 2p thread (not the 5p, nor played)

But maybe you'll still have to have some tech dependant on some others ; upgrade-like.
like
engineering depends on Mathematics OR Construction OR priesthood OR Philosophy... and if, by chance you had the 4 techs, you'll get a huge bonus for researching this. but on the other hand, getting all those "construction related techs" will mean you'll miss many combat related tech that you might be forbidden to research.

I mean, nobody can develop building watermills from naught, nor crossbows, nor acqueducts.
And don't confuse things that were upgrades with things that are alternate versions :
-obsidian vs iron vs bronze were alternate versions, but upgrades from stone weapons : iron was brittle and cheap, bronze was way better but costly (needs some tin? mineral from britain) obsidian was brittle but cheap but needed obsidian ressources + is of no consideration if the other guy has some bronze armor. With steel, almost as cheap as iron, but as good/better than bronze, nobody would use anything else.
-stirups : those that didn't use any did this because they didn't knew better ! as soon as someone showed them... they bought the idea ! it's an improvement.
-large shield vs small shield is an alternative
-phalanx vs horde vs legion turtle vs chariot are alternatives , they essentially depend on the ressources, population...etc
-longbow vs crossbow is alternative/policy and not improvement from one to the other: better but hard to train versus easy to train but a bit less powerful AND "every peon gets a weapon" vs "only soldiers" AND cheap human, costly weapon versus cheap weapon, costly human.
-money is an improvement over barter
-alphabet is an improvement of writing

those improvements could be in later tier of techs : see below :

I think you could build a tech tree with 2-4 "tier" levels.
-with each tech "discovered" removing randomly a tech in the same tier.
then, each tech of a tier needing one or more techs of former tier;

thus, as you discover mining you open metal working / jewelry / mint (money making) but loose tier 1 tech ... eg forestry.
on the other hand mint needs ... mining or mathematics or barter.
jewelry (tier III) can be discovered with metal working / exploration (gathering gold/silver/gems on the floor or in small rivers) / hunting (ivory, feathers)

so let say :
tier I : many primitive techs, that one can combine with other tech to allow for some combinations of promotions / wonders / units :
tierII : depend on multiples tier I techs (OR choices) : allow a second orientation of the civilization, each tier I allowing multiples tier II, and each tier II needing 1 tech of a list of tier I tech ; or 1 tier I tech + one of many tier I tech.
but you cannot invent horse-archers if you don't have none of horseback riding archery, ranged attack, animal husbandry. tier III : depend on some fixed tier II techs :
many tier III techs possible; but each is a combination of 2-3 AND tier II-tier I specific techs :
so normally you'll have choices between some tier III techs. And what disappear has a huge chance of being tech you could never research as you can't research the needed tier I/II tech ; but sometimes you'll lose some formerly available techs.In conclusion : tier III are bonus techs that reward you if you had the chance of getting some special combination of techs ; as they are multiples, you'll alway be able to get some tier III techs ; but depending on the different tech you had, you won't be able to get all of them. + each tier III tech you get close 1 other tier III tech.

well, those ideas are coming out of the hat, as I write them. they are mostly random or stupid, but they were a way to illustrate a multi-tier tech tree still with your basic ideas. (you could even do a 4th tier)

The next difficulty is about the way to implement things for units :
will you have most combination of tech allow specialized units ? and some few combination being promotion (ex : exploration + hill training allows for +1 mobility on hills)
(ex : elistism allows champion units with metal working (allow axeman) and iron ressource, ranger (robin hood) with archery (allow archer) and hunting (allow hunter) and silk ressource, jaguar warrior with hunting (allow hunter) and obsidian ressource)
or will you have most of the combination being seen by promotions/free promotions :
-elitisme allowing +1 but more costly or costs a promotion upgrade
-forester giving +20% forest strength, + allow upgrade "skirmisher"
-military training gives first strikes and %strength...Et
-archery increase the ranged attacks of ranged-weapon units
-metal working gives some metal weapons : +1, need the ressources, but can be applied to already built units
the unicity of each civ being mostly in the combination of promotion being available on each of the 5 basic units "melee" / "mounted" / "ranged" / "siege" / "naval"


I'll be happy to discussion with you of tech trees / units / balance, as long as it's theoretical. (as I don't Have cV and can not play/mod...Etc)

I know you want specialization.. But you can attain it with a tech tree.(one with almost no depth 2-4 tier instead of civ's 20-30 tier.)
The "tech tier" I talked about are way to represent specialisation.
your cIV version was :
tech A gives a, B gives b, a+b gives a, b and ab, D+B gives d, b and db and A+B+D gives a, b, ab, d, db, + unit YYY.
I propose :
Tech A+B gives tech AA (gives ab), B+ D gives tech BB (gives db), and AA+BB gives unit YYY : thus it's easier to follow for the player. You can more easily plan your research instead of knowing "by hearth" all the combination of 100+ techs.
(+ it's logical) (herdmen/famers are more advanced than hunter-gather. it's a fact)
it'll save you some supranumerous techs : allow 2 techs to go to Compass and 2 to Astronomy : 2 ways of crossing oceans. Thus you don't have to find 4 alternate techs to cross ocean. Just 2 techs, allowed by any of 4 tech that have another use.
(like, mineralogy/mapmaking allows for compass, and stargazing/mathematics allows astronomy)

but where I follow you : nomadic herdsmen (mongols) vs static famers (corn-cultivating anibishis)... no one can say which was the more advanced civilisation..)

Wow, great post here, with some great ideas, thanks:

(And I would love choices like lighter than air vs heavier than air / or lighter than water (submarine/whale) vs heavier than water (torpedoes-like submarines/sharks..)

Click to expand...

You mean like som kind of fantasy mod? I would love to, although will focus first on the "historical" one, then on a more fantasy oriented one, as I think this principle would fit really good in a fantasy setting.

You understand all my points, so I won't add many things.

But one thing I want to prevent is a player going on some tech development, and gaining an edge over other players. No tech should be "better" than an other one, all provide bonus and drawbacks.

For example, a player could go straight to early gunpowder, and be able to make fireworks, that would increase slightly the hapiness of some cities. But if he wants to build some (costly and limited) early gunpowder units (that wouldn't be THAT efficient), he would need to have access to some sulfur deposit, and maybe, a "training" tech)

However, I totally agree that a "specialization" tier is a great idea, although it would need some more coder skills, and careful balancing.

As for the military part, not advancing beyond early gunpowder, I will at least change the unit types: Light infantry, heavy infantry, light cavalry, and so on.
I think that most units will be tech dependent, that is a tech will allow to recruit new units. I prefer that over the promotion solution, because promotions might lead to weird results.
Moreover, I plan to make the battles very dependent on the kind of terrain the units will fight on: Phalanx will be almost unbeatable on flat terrain, but will suffer huge penalties on rough terrain, for example....

in reality I'm not speaking fantasy.
It might sound fantasyish as it is technologie not really used now as the western modern civilization choose some path, exculding some others.

But the blimps, ballon and hindenberg-like crafts existed. One can easily imagine amelioration of those. Same for heavier than water. if you have heavier than air crafts, one can imagine heavier than water. but you'll need a lot of speed (some diver equipement/propellers are already heavier than air). Not doable if you don't allow to tech up to motors.
Chinese used early "katyushas"(multi-rocket launcher)
Greeks used napalm
Roman legions new how to use heliographs
Syracuse (archimedes); knew how to use solar power to burn things. But it was abandonned as archimedes was killed, and ballistas are much more versatiles.
Leonardo had the idea of parachutes /submarine.
Incas used paved roads for there runners and knew how to build almost seam-less stone buildings.
all those paths can be developped a bit more than they were in real History without really being fantasy.

Finally, I've tried the cIV mod. And here is my feedback :
-having, at most, 4 (number limited) units is hard, especially as early on there are quickly lions with 6
-a tech tree of 60-80 tech in parallel is impossible to use.
you want to do something, but cant as the overview is impossible : the techs are not even proposed in an alphabetical order. so even if you know what tech you want it is difficult to find it.
-most tech do almost nothing.
(just to mine gold I had to research 3 techs : mineralogy, see if there is gold, mining to extract the gold, and then wardancing to have some culture in my city so I could get to the gold-plot and the copper plot). As you have nothing to improve your output, it took 15 + 20 +30 turns... (the tech cost increase is a bit steep in the beginning of the game)
I'd rather have fewer techs, but each a bit more potent.
-each potent unit is a long shot, needing 3-4 techs + a special ressource.
so it is always possible that your plan is tweaked, and you have to re-adapt going to another potent unit, but each tech costs more and more..., and maybe you'll "discard" important other techs.

for all techs, I think the drawback of suppressing another tech is enough.

And IMO there are techs that are better than others.
stirrups is better than no stirrups,
saddle is better than no saddle
heavy cavalry can not be invented without stirrups and saddle.
horsearchers cannot be invented without stirrups and saddle.
heavy cavalry vs horse-archers are 2 alternatives, using different philosophy, and having different results.
stirrups can not be invented if one doesn't know about animal ridding or at least using animal to pull chariots (animal husbandry).
training warhorses cannot be done without knowing animal husbandry.
making metal weapons/armors cannot be done without first knowing that metal exist.
currency cannot be discovered if you don't know trade or bartering AND if you don't have a precious material ; precious shells, gold, silver, gems...etc.
Professional units cannot exist if you don't know how to pay them.
longbow / recurve bow cannot exist if you don't know about archery
why would you research farming if you don't think about eating edible herbs ?
why would you butcher animals if neither do you hunt nor do you know how to breed animal youself.

all those can be done as Tech A + Tech B + Tech C + Tech D allow unit Y, X or Z
But it can also be done on a broad but not totally flat tech tree.
A + B allow tech C ; but if B is discarded, you'll still be able to get tech D to have a A+D combination and then research tech E.
in that case, once you have A and B, or A and D, you are sure to be able to research C or E... and you don't take any risk in researching farming.
well, it's your mod. so you can do as you want

Hi again,

I won't argue with you, as I did the arguing (although with other people) multiple times.
I agree with the fact that the technologies from the previous mod are a real unplayable mess.
As for the other things, it's about, you are right again, design philosophy.
I agree that some kind of Tier tech might be good, but may be hard to do. I won't focus on it at first, but will focus on organizing the techs better, If I ever have the missing part of the code.

BTW, Natives americans didn't know saddles nor stirrups, but still were some amazing Horse archers...
And the civilization you started to create (knowing mineralogy, mining and war dancing), was unique, and the path you chose was partly oriented by your environment. Maybe if you didn't have mineral ressources around you, you would have gone for another path, and other techs of interest, ending in your very own Civ. Maybe with a heavily forested areas, you would have taken advantage of this, and created a more Nature/Forest oriented civ (amazonian tribes-like, for example)...

-most tech do almost nothing.

Click to expand...

But they all DO something. Mineralogy will allow you to discover mineral deposits, which are usefull even if not mined. And mining will allow you to build mines, which can be constructed on hills, with some benefits. But indeed, mineralogy + mining the better ^^.
This is what this mod is about.

There are ways to improve learning in the mod (writing) although I must admit it was not very developped. Some more techs to add there ^^

Added the greco-roman style (based on alexander) and middle eastern (based on suleiman) civilizations.
20 HP units,
40 HP cities.

Hi all,

added the last "cosmetic civs" to the game.
Removed all ressources...for now.

Hi all,

Added mineralogy (reveals Gold, iron and silver)
Added geology (reveals coal, marble and gems)