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Old Oct 29, 2010, 12:35 AM   #21
hellboy909
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Originally Posted by Dark_Jedi06 View Post
Why are ground units that aren't anti-aircraft guns capable of damaging aircraft doing bombing runs? It's very silly when those Infantry turns the rifles up to the sky and start shooting and my bomber lands with 1/3 of its health missing.
The fact that any pre-Industrial era civ can shoot at any aircraft is pretty stupid.

This is why I don't focus too hard on these things. It just makes my brain hurt.
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 08:02 AM   #22
Dark_Jedi06
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Originally Posted by Didjon View Post
I agree if you only see them as some guys with rifles.
But try to se the unit as an infantry division who shuld have a AA-brigade
Then why is there a separate Anti-Aircraft unit?

Why does this also happen with Artillery, Rifleman, Rocket Artillery, Tanks, etc.? They don't all have little contingents of AA following them around...
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 08:23 AM   #23
KrikkitTwo
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Originally Posted by Dark_Jedi06 View Post
Then why is there a separate Anti-Aircraft unit?

Why does this also happen with Artillery, Rifleman, Rocket Artillery, Tanks, etc.? They don't all have little contingents of AA following them around...
For a real world explanation, they DO. (they just aren't shown on the screen.)

Just like there is a continuous stream of supplies and replacements going to that unit from your cities, and the fact that ALL of your cities probably have some banks, even f they don't have "The Bank" build there.

etc.

Its an abstraction. Your "Tank unit" is a collection of military personell and hardware that has high mobility and close combat strength, so the war planners designate it as a tank unit.

Just like the AA unit has a few people with rifles, and probably some Jeeps with it. Not enough to make it a powerful melee unit, but it has melee capabilities.

It is Better at AA than other units
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 09:16 AM   #24
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I'm curious... when was the last time you guys had a game last long enough to get to Stealth Bomber?
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 09:22 AM   #25
Didjon
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IMO Krikkiton is absolutely right and because of this all post-industrial era units shuld be able to defend against air bombardment (but not as effective as a designated AA-unit)

Still a pre-gunpowder unit shuld be almost helpless (always a risk for a accidental loss of aircraft)
But I can't remember that a x-bow have downed any my planes jet so I don't se the problem other then that the AI don't prioritize air and AA but I quess that's even more OT

Last edited by Didjon; Oct 29, 2010 at 09:25 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 11:34 AM   #26
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It must have been done for balance purposes. Even as it is, its not like your bombers ever die to this, it just slows down your ability to attack as you have to stop and heal up once in a while.

Unrealistic, yea probably, but needed for balance. Its already easy enough to beat the AI, make bombers anymore powerful and it just becomes a joke. The computer already rarely builds AA.

RE: Who builds stealth bombers.

I've had a couple games were I built them, I was conquest focused, my science was ok but I could win faster with conquest. I had basically won but was mopping everything up, so why not build them? The computer had artillery inside their cities, and at that point air units really become the most efficient at taking those cities.

Also, stealth bombers are really fun to use and very powerful, killing most land units in a single turn.
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 01:04 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Slowpoke View Post
Just a balance thing I guess. It'd be annoying having stealth bombers be the only offensive unit past a certain point.
Like in Civ II and IV!

I'd always just mass stealth bombers in late game, really was the equivalent of GDR's.
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 01:06 PM   #28
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The point here is that the B-2 Spirit Bombers in the real world hasn't been shot down because they can't be seen very easily or detected on the radar, when doing the bombing runs at night. Furthermore, it flies higher than 35,000 feet, which is the normal "ceiling" for most airplanes. Statistically speaking, which is what this game is based on more of than randomness, the B-2 Bomber should not be capable of being shot at. It's unheard of and the same should remain true for this game. However, given the strength and ability of the bomber, perhaps make it cost more to maintain so they can't be mass produced or take longer to produce. That can be the trade-off.

Same concept as the Giant Death Robot... That unit is overpowered.
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 02:03 PM   #29
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longswords can hit aircraft?
I suppose that's not too much more of a stretch than longbows sinking destroyers
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Old Oct 29, 2010, 04:26 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Nashers View Post
The point here is that the B-2 Spirit Bombers in the real world hasn't been shot down because they can't be seen very easily or detected on the radar, when doing the bombing runs at night. Furthermore, it flies higher than 35,000 feet, which is the normal "ceiling" for most airplanes. Statistically speaking, which is what this game is based on more of than randomness, the B-2 Bomber should not be capable of being shot at. It's unheard of and the same should remain true for this game. However, given the strength and ability of the bomber, perhaps make it cost more to maintain so they can't be mass produced or take longer to produce. That can be the trade-off.

Same concept as the Giant Death Robot... That unit is overpowered.
We forgo realism in this game all the time, I really think we need to do so in this case as well.

Do you really want a unit in the end game that cannot be killed by anything? Even the GDR you could technically battle with other GDRs. An unhittable stealth bomber just becomes free damage on your opponent every turn after you build it. How is that compelling game play?
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Old Oct 30, 2010, 02:43 PM   #31
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Another reason B-2's haven't been shot down is most times they're used against an enemy with a severe technological disadvantage. In the hypothetical world of Civ where your enemy can have equal or superior technology, advanced tracking and guidance systems could theoretically counteract the B-2's low visibility. It does have a radar signature, just a very small one, and on well-lit nights it could be easier to visually spot from above against lighter ground colors.

One thing about B-2s is they're insanely expensive and only two dozen exist. A single bomber costs more than a seven hundred average US citizens make in a lifetime. What might be interesting is to replace the B-2 with UAVs for the modern-future eras, which are becoming more and more common... would probably represent aerial combat better to have a combination of jet fighters, missiles and drones. I think the reason stealth bombers have always been included in Civ is the coolness factor.
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Last edited by Thalassicus; Oct 30, 2010 at 02:49 PM.
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Old Oct 30, 2010, 03:34 PM   #32
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Primitive units might actually have some anti-air capability. For instance look at the afghans taking out soviet helicopters. Though the afghan's weren't pre-gunpowder, they certainly didn't have the organizational, scientific, or industrial capabilities to produce the weapons they used against the soviets. However they did have a few soviet rivals to supply them with sufficient firepower to bloody the soviet's noses.

Units are very much an abstraction of a large combat group. A group of longswordsmen are *mainly* a formation of melee units, however they likely have a spattering of anti-air teams, machine gun teams, and anti-armor teams to support those longswordsmen, they just lack the technological,and industrial output to support an entire modern army, and the quantities of such units to fight effectively against modern armies.
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Old Oct 30, 2010, 05:59 PM   #33
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someone touched on it before..... have the americans actually put the super duper stealth bomber up against a serious air defence? Saddam and his spud guns were never going to be a match. Afghanie and their arrows were never goign to match either. Serbia and their slingshots perhaps just got lucky with the fighter or whatever u want to pigeon hole it as.

i bet the diplo to stop the Russians selling Iran their latest anti-air toys was a frantic and desperate affair!

p.s it is stealth, it is not invisible.
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Old Oct 30, 2010, 06:01 PM   #34
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and as for Civ. haha forgot about that.

having such a long ranged powerful weapon with out some basic come back? to coin a phrase used here... over powered!11!!1


remember its only a game and not a walk through of history from day dot.
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