NiGHTS: General Discussion

[markusbeutel]

CIVILIZATION NiGHTS
Now available at http://forums.civfanatics.com/downlo...=file&id=20051

Version 5 of Nights: Gods and Kings released on Oct 6th!

IMPORTANT: DOWNLOAD/INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS!
1. Delete any previous versions of the mod from C:\<username>\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS
2. Download and copy file into C:\<username>\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS
3. Delete your cache folder in C:\<username>\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\cache
4. Delete the contents of the ModUserData folder in C:\<username>\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\ModUserData
5. Verify your cache and defrag your CIV V files through Steam (right click, properties, local files, verify integrity.

Latest Update Changelog (5)

Spoiler:

Version 5 - Released to http://forums.civfanatics.com/downlo...=file&id=16650

IMPORTANT: DOWNLOAD/INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS!
Note that the following locations could differ depending on where you've installed CIV V.
1. Download and copy file into C:\<username>\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS
2. Delete your cache folder in C:\<username>\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\cache
3. Delete the contents of the ModUserData folder in C:\<username>\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\ModUserData
4. Verify your cache and defrag your CIV V files through Steam (right click, properties, local files, verify integrity.
5. Make sure your game is up to date with the December 2011 patch!
6. Load CIV V and click Install button in the ModBrowser.

v5 of Nights: Gods and Kings update released to http://forums.civfanatics.com/downlo...=file&id=20051 and to the Steam Workshop.

Changes in this re-release:

• Fixed text bugs on diplomacy overview screen.
• Fixed bug where Indentured Servants couldn't build Polders when playing as the Dutch.
• Fixed bug where Riflemen (and unique unit versions of riflemen) weren't upgrading to Infantry.
• Fixed tool-tip error that stated Templar Knights needed Cathedrals (corrected to Abbey).
• Fixed bug where Harbors and policies from the Commerce branch weren't giving production or XP bonuses to ships.
• Fixed a bug where Manufactories weren't able to be built on Copper.
• Fixed policy bug in Honor tree that required Hunting but was being granted automatically with Despotism.
• Fixed bug where religious building Pagodas and Mosques weren't granting happiness.
• Fixed bug where Egyptian Entrepot wasn't giving bonuses to G+K's resources.
• Fixed bug where Great Prophets couldn't clear forests or jungles to build Holy Sites.
• Fixed bug where Ironclads were showing range strength capability (they shouldn't as they are melee units).
• Academies no longer grant culture for being chained together, (that tag was bugged), and now grant a base 3 science +2 for adjacent mountains instead of a base 2 and +3.
• Garrison Upgrade policy now grants 100% ranged strength instead of 200%.

Saves won't carry over, and if you experience any other bugs, both with the Civfanatics version and/or the ModBrowser version, make sure to delete old copies of the mod, and...

1. Download and copy file into C:\<username>\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS
2. Delete your cache folder in C:\<username>\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\cache
3. Delete the contents of the ModUserData folder in C:\<username>\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\ModUserData
4. Verify your cache and defrag your CIV V files through Steam (right click, properties, local files, verify integrity.

Happiness Mechanics

Spoiler:

In CivNights, the main fundamental difference that distinguishes it from vanilla CIV V, is that Citizens in your Empire do not generate Unhappiness, they generate Happiness (the first 10 in every City) - and Military units require Happiness to be constructed.

Happiness Breakdown

• Policies = anywhere from 1-50 based on circumstances.
• Governments = anywhere from 1-100 (temporary) based on circumstances.
• Starting bonuses = +45/+40/+35/+30/+30/+30/+30/+30 based on difficulty level.
• Various Buildings/Wonders = 5-15 Happiness
• Luxury Resources = 10 Happiness each
• Natural Wonders inside of your borders = 5 Happiness, (there is no automatic bonus for discovering a NW).
• Citizens = 1 Happiness each up to the first 10 Citizens in a City.

Unhappiness Breakdown

• Normal Cities = -20 Unhappiness each
• Annexed Cities = -30 Unhappiness each (minus automatic Happiness for how many Citizens are in the City).
• Occupied Population in Annexed Cities = -1 per Citizen (was -2)
• Puppeted Cities = -30 Unhappiness each (minus automatic Happiness for how many Citizens are in the City).
• Occupied Population in Puppeted Cities = 0 per Citizen
• Military Units = -5 Unhappiness each

Difficulty Levels

Spoiler:

Settler

• 45 starting Happiness
• AI Happiness bonus = 35%
• Player Growth bonus = 10%
• AI free tech = None
• AI free unit = Worker
• AI unit build discount = 75% penalty

Chieftain

• 40 starting Happiness
• AI Happiness bonus = 35%
• Player Growth bonus = 0%
• AI free tech = None
• AI free unit = Worker
• AI unit build discount = 30% Penalty

Warlord

• 35 starting Happiness
• AI Happiness bonus = 35%
• AI Growth bonus = 10%
• AI free tech = None
• AI free unit = Worker
• AI unit build discount = 10% Penalty

Prince

• 30 starting Happiness
• AI Happiness bonus = 35%
• AI Growth bonus = 10%
• AI free tech = None
• AI free unit = Worker
• AI unit build discount = No Bonus or Penalty

King

• 30 starting Happiness
• AI Happiness bonus = 35%
• AI Growth bonus = 15%
• AI free tech = Mining
• AI free unit = Worker
• AI unit build discount = 15% Bonus

Emperor

• 30 starting Happiness
• AI Happiness bonus = 35%
• AI Growth bonus = 20%
• AI free tech = Mining
• AI free unit = Worker
• AI unit build discount = 20% Bonus

Immortal

• 30 starting Happiness
• AI Happiness bonus = 35%
• AI Growth bonus = 25%
• AI free tech = Mining
• AI free unit = Worker/Scout
• AI unit build discount = 35% bonus

Deity

• 30 starting Happiness
• AI Happiness bonus = 35%
• AI Growth bonus = 30%
• AI free tech = Mining
• AI free unit = Worker/Scout/Warrior
• AI unit build discount = 50% Bonus

Cultural Revolutions

Spoiler:

A limited number of Government types are initially available to be adopted once your Empire experiences a Cultural Revolution, with more being unlocked through your Policy choices. They last for 5/10/15/20 turns depending on your game speed settings. The first person to build a Wonder experiences the World's first Cultural Revolution and from then on his culture points build up towards experiencing another Revolution.

Civ's must have built a Wonder to be in the running for a Cultural Revolution - as it functions like a race - with points from culture leading up towards the next Revolution. Once you win a Revolution, the number of Cities in your Empire, and loyalists to the Government you adopted, contribute negative points towards your next Revolution. All the other Civ's that did not experience a Revolution keep the points they've earned up to that point to make sure there are no runaways in this regard, (although it is technically possible to post back to back Revolutions).

Only one Cultural Revolution may be active at any one time throughout the World - and word of this Revolution spreads, so that even if you haven't met the winning Civilization, you'll have heard of their Revolution, and where it specifically occurred.

The following is the list of Government types that can be temporarily adopted following a successful Cultural Revolution in your Empire.

Spoiler:

The following is the list of Government types that can be temporarily adopted following a successful Cultural Revolution in your Empire.

Despotism
Everyone starts with this tech unlocked at the beginning of the game and it allows you to build Workers, Scouts, Settlers, and Farms.

• Adopting Despotism increases the rate that Workers build Improvements by +50%.

Feudalism
The only other Government that's unlocked in the Ancient Era, (although it takes more techs to research than Republic). Researching it adds +1 food to farms beside freshwater, (rivers/lakes), Indentured Servants (build Improvements faster, and the Pavillion - a Wonder that each Civ can build once which improves Happiness.

• Adopting Feudalism causes each of your Cities to carry +30% of food over after growth, and adds a +1 food yield to every bonus resource.

Republic
The first Government tech you're able to unlock in the Classical Era. It unlocks Caravels, Lighthouses, and allows you to cross ocean tiles.

• Adopting Republic increases your current influence with City-States by +100%, and also boosts Wonder construction by +20% in all of your Cities.

Oligarchy
The second Government tech that you're able to unlock in the Classical Era. It unlocks the Temple of Solomon Wonder that instantly grants +1500 Gold and a Happiness bonus, the Black Market (1 per Civ - adds +10 Gold to each local luxury resource), and it allows for the conversion of Production to Gold (Wealth).

• Adopting Oligarchy increases the amount of Gold you get from trade routes by +100%. It also adds +1 gold to the yield of worked luxury resources in all of your Cities.

Theocracy
The last Government tech unlocked in the Classical Era. It unlocks Abbeys, Cathedrals, and one of the 3 early Knight variant units.

• Adopting Theocracy gives you a free policy, and increases the rate at which Great People are generated by +100% in all of your Cities.

Monarchy
The only Government tech unlocked in the Medieval Era, it unlocks regular Knights, Castles, and the Himeji Castle Wonder.

• Adopting Monarchy increases the rate of Production when constructing buildings by +40% in all of your Cities and also initiates a Golden Age.

Democracy
The first Government tech unlocked in the Renaissance Era, it unlocks Odeons, the Magna Carta Wonder, (1 per Civ - +33% Wonder boost in the City it's built in), and the Porcelain Tower.

• Adopting Democracy increases the Culture output and Cultural border expansion of all your Cities by +30%.

Communism
The last Government tech unlocked in the Renaissance Era (and in the game), it unlocks the Kremlin, the Ironworks National Wonder, and the Motherland Calls Wonder (+50% local building production in the City it's built in).

• Adopting Communism increases the rate of Military and Spaceship production by +50% in all of your Cities.

Each Government, (except Despotism), also has buildings and Wonders that can only be constructed while that Government is active. If you fail to complete the Wonder while your Government is active, it'll disappear from the build queue.

Policies

Spoiler:

The Policies screen has been rebuilt from the ground up and consists of 7 Policy Branches - Tradition/Honor/Piety/Patronage/Order/Rationalism/Commerce, each with 12-15 subpolicies for a total of over +80.

LINK TO SCREENSHOT: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downlo...licies_8ZV.jpg

The Tech Tree

Spoiler:

The Tech Tree has been completely rebuilt. It's seen significant UI work done to it so that each Tech unlocks at least 3 features, and more Tech's are visible on the screen at any one time. There are multiple either/or prerequisites which are designated by a science icon in front of them. This allows multiple paths to be taken through the tree, and accordingly, each playthrough of the mod will feel highly unique based on the circumstances.

LINK TO SCREENSHOT: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attach...3&d=1325583743

Number Diplomacy

Spoiler:

All of the diplomacy modifiers from vanilla CIV V have been replaced/altered in NiGHTS. Each modifier has a weighting of (-5) to (+5), with (-5) being the threshold that triggers the AI to Denounce/DOW you (barring a backstab). These values are listed in the active tool-tips displayed during diplomacy.

Diplomacy Changes

• Having a Declaration of Friendship in place will lead to a higher likelihood of the AI accepting a Defensive Pact.
• "Close" borders penalties have been scaled back, EXCEPT if you build next to an AI's capital.
• The AI aggressively pursues City-States.
• City-States drive diplomacy in CivNights, as the shifting allegiances affect overall diplomacy on the most consistent basis as opposed to frequent vanilla DoW's.
• A good way to "play" the diplo game, is to maintain neutral or friendly relationships until an AI starts a conflict with another AI, (which WILL happen due to their aggressive City-State stances).
• The Warmonger penalty has been removed due to it's poor implementation, as you shouldn't have to get a diplo penalty for being attacked, especially with the amount of penalties already in the game.
• The AI will like you more based on the amount of Wonders you build, (opposite of in vanilla).
• The AI's tendency to give ridiculous peace deals has been drastically scaled back.
• The AI favors giving armistices in most situations, (basic treaties with no tribute) but will still offer tribute in certain situations when they've been dominated.
• The AI is much quicker to end a war, both in offering and accepting treaties.
• DoW's and Declarations of Friendship last 25 turns instead of 50 (as of v11.2, will be changed to 30 turns to match trade deals in v11.3).
• City-States that neighbor allied war zones will actively participate in battles (but they won't go half way across a map - keyword, neighboring!).
• Taking this into account, using neighboring City-States as buffers is a great strategy on higher difficulty levels - as the AI WILL do this to you.
• The AI will offer less gold for luxuries based on their opinion of you.
• A good way to gauge relations is through trades: 600 gold per luxury is an optimal trade, 500ish means they still like you, but you're probably neighbors, while 400 or less means they don't entirely trust you, and the chances of being backstabbed are much higher than normal and almost certain at some point if they REFUSE a luxury trade.
• Aggressive AI like Montezuma/Khan/Askia are far more likely to backstab/attack you, and overall, Civ's roleplay much more than in vanilla CIV V.
• When you first meet Gandhi, 95% chance that he'll be friendly right off the bat.
• Having a Declaration of Friendship with an AI drastically increases the chances of them agreeing to not settle near you if you choose this option, (but you still get a (-2) diplo penatly).
• Having a Declaration of Friendship with an AI also drastically increases the chances of them giving in to your demands, (especially Gandhi).

All of these changes will make diplomacy in CivNights feel far more intuitive than in vanilla CIV V.


Positive Modifier Values

• Declaration of Friendship: +5
• Liberated a Capital: +5
• Freed Captured Citizens: +4
• Liberated a regular City: +4
• Declaration of Friendship with the same Civ's: +3
• Denounced the same Civ's: +3
• Fought the same Enemies: +3
• Fought the same Enemies and destroyed Cities: +2
• The AI admires your Wonders: +2
• Recently Traded: +2
• Provided help when the AI asked for it: +2
• Random first impressions of you (completely random, not based on your actions): +1

Negative Modifier Values

• Captured their original Capital: -5
• Nuked them: -5
• Broke Declaration of Friendship and declared War: -5
• Declared War on their Friends: -5
• Culture-bombed them: -5
• Killed protected City-States: -5
• Denounced them/Denounced us: -4
• City-State rivalries: -4
• Traded with their Enemies: -3
• Attacked protected City-States: -3
• Broke promise to not attack City-State(s): -3
• Demanded Tribute: -2
• Denounced their Friends/Friends Denounced us: -2
• Refused a request/demand: -2
• Broke promise to stop expanding/buying land: -2
• Ignored request to not attack City-State(s): -2
• Close Borders: -1

Culture Victories

Spoiler:

Culture Victories are currently disabled in NiGHTS, as policies themselves are no longer tied to the unlocking of Policy Branches. They'll make a reappearance in future versions, albeit with a different mechanic(s).

Military Production/Changes

Spoiler:

With all Military Units generating the same amount of Unhappiness, (-5), I still wanted to include a mechanic that encouraged having a diverse army that didn't just consist of the best possible unit at any given time. So what I've done is made it so that each additional Military Unit of the same type that you build/buy/upgrade, costs an extra +20% hammers/gold to produce and/or upgrade. This means that in many situations, Spearmen and Archers will be a more logical build than 6 Swordsmen. With the extended eras, this makes for unit-appropriate diverse wars that encompass a variety of troop types, and the AI has been programmed to vary their build choices accordingly, (while at the same time prioritizing their own unique unit(s) if they have them).

This hammer % increase is raised to +100% for Nuclear missiles and Atomic bombs, as they no longer generate Unhappiness now that there is a relations hit on Diplomacy for nuking other Civ's.

Barbarians

Spoiler:

Brutes/Spearman/Archers/Horseman/Swordsman/Galleys all roam the world map from the start of the game. This is an attempt to make Barbarians more of an early game threat, as opposed to merely a nuisance. Defeated Barbarians that are encamped will join your side and not contribute any unhappiness, unlike normal units - although once upgraded, they contribute Unhappiness.

Barbarian Brute

• 8 Combat Strength
• 2 Moves

Barbarian Galley

• 7 Ranged Combat Strength
• 3 Moves

Barbarian Archer

• 4 Combat Strength
• 8 Ranged Combat Strength
• 2 Moves

Barbarian Spearman

• 9 Combat Strength
• 2 Moves

Barbarian Horseman

• 10 Combat Strength
• 3 Moves

Barbarian Swordsman - (note this unit is rare and won't show up often)

• 12 Combat Strength
• 1 Move

Altered Core Files

Spoiler:

NiGHTS alters the following core CIV V files, and any other mods or mod components that alter the same files will cause conflicts/crashes.

• ActionInfoPanel.lua
• CityBannerManager.lua
• DiploRelationships.lua
• DiploRelationships.xml
• GameMenu.lua
• GameMenu.xml
• LoadScreen.lua
• LoadScreen.xml
• TechTree.lua
• TechTree.xml
• TopPanel.lua
• TopPanel.xml
• TradeLogic.lua
• UnitFlagManager.lua
• TechPopup.xml
• TechPopup_small.xml
• VictoryProgress.xml

Credits

Spoiler:

PM me if I've missed you in the list and used your work.

• Markus Beutel: Lead Designer
• OrsonM: Art Designer
• Moaf: Cultural Revolutions component
• Sneaks: Cityview UI
• Cope/Attila: UI tweaks
• magus424: Luxury Resource Display
• Whys Alives: WhysUtils
• ambrox62/Pouakai/Sukritact/Sneaks : Additional Wonders and artwork/icons
• Adam Watkins: Hover Info component
• Moriboe: Great Works mod component

[malmsteen_SVK]

looks interesting i will try that during this week

[ThaiHorde]

interesting but the unit happiness system is broken. units give -100 happiness from the start so you must delete your initial warrior to even build your cap.

[markusbeutel]

They should only give 0.5 happiness to start - archers give 1 - and the next tech rank gives 1.5.

Did you play the mod or just look at the xml files because in the xml 100 = 1 so it might look like the initial units give 100 unhappiness.

[ThaiHorde]

Originally Posted by markusbeutel

They should only give 0.5 happiness to start - archers give 1 - and the next tech rank gives 1.5.

Did you play the mod or just look at the xml files because in the xml 100 = 1 so it might look like the initial units give 100 unhappiness.

did both. upon startup it says your civ is very unhappy and that you are unable to build a city. so i destroyed the warrior and was able to build my cap. everything worked until i got a ruin that gave me an archer...then i had -100 happiness.

[markusbeutel]

Originally Posted by ThaiHorde

did both. upon startup it says your civ is very unhappy and that you are unable to build a city. so i destroyed the warrior and was able to build my cap. everything worked until i got a ruin that gave me an archer...then i had -100 happiness.

Do you have any other mods active? I haven't been able to recreate this problem on any of my test playthroughs and the math is correct in the xml files.

What difficulty are you playing on and what version of the mod do you have downloaded?

A problem that I have found while investigating this is that Settler/Chieftain/Warlord difficulties are getting a lesser bonus on Happiness from population due to handicaps being in place. This will be fixed in the next update.

I'll keep trying to figure out why you're getting this Unhappiness problem is it would truly make the mod unplayable.

Has anyone else encountered this issue?

[sojourner96]

I really like this mod. Do you happen to have a version with just the resource buildings? I think those would be a great addition to any group of mods.

[Putmalk]

Can you upload a version where the single-unit graphics are not added? I really like the 10-unit armies and I think this is a change that we should be able to specify by ourselves.

[markusbeutel]

Originally Posted by Putmalk

Can you upload a version where the single-unit graphics are not added? I really like the 10-unit armies and I think this is a change that we should be able to specify by ourselves.

I will upload a 10-unit version within the next few days. I'll also be releasing a mod that purely adjusts unit sizes so people can mix and match.

[markusbeutel]

Originally Posted by sojourner96

I really like this mod. Do you happen to have a version with just the resource buildings? I think those would be a great addition to any group of mods.

I'll release a mod this week sometime of just the resource buildings. Glad you like them - I tried to pick buildings/art that fit within the contexts of CiV.

[Putmalk]

Originally Posted by markusbeutel

I will upload a 10-unit version within the next few days. I'll also be releasing a mod that purely adjusts unit sizes so people can mix and match.

Thanks!

[heinous_hat]

The problem with the larger single units is you have no visual indication of strength save for the icon bar (which isn't always present). Ships are nice though. Tried it for awhile and found it distracting.

Disabling civ5artdefines_unitmembers.xml and civ5artdefines_units.xml seems to do the trick. Is this correct?

Otherwise, great work with this. A lot of thought obviously went into balance and the pros and cons approach to governments is great. The tech tree is refreshing as well. Took me a while to wrap my noodle around what paths represented distinct strategies (which is good).

Only downside, at first glance, is policies might be a bit too balanced. Specifically, the infrastructure policies all feel the same. Perhaps some artwork would give them enough additional character.

Overall though, nice job. Keep it up I had a rare weird game going where there were a bunch of ill defined map tiles with the Tectonics mod. Have to start a new one to give more valid feedback as I couldn't take it anymore. One trend I did notice was AI civs moving rapidly through eras by pursuing a single tech line. I'll watch that specifically in the next game.

[markusbeutel]

Originally Posted by heinous_hat

The problem with the larger single units is you have no visual indication of strength save for the icon bar (which isn't always present). Ships are nice though. Tried it for awhile and found it distracting.

Disabling civ5artdefines_unitmembers.xml and civ5artdefines_units.xml seems to do the trick. Is this correct?

Otherwise, great work with this. A lot of thought obviously went into balance and the pros and cons approach to governments is great. The tech tree is refreshing as well. Took me a while to wrap my noodle around what paths represented distinct strategies (which is good).

Only downside, at first glance, is policies might be a bit too balanced. Specifically, the infrastructure policies all feel the same. Perhaps some artwork would give them enough additional character.

Overall though, nice job. Keep it up I had a rare weird game going where there were a bunch of ill defined map tiles with the Tectonics mod. Have to start a new one to give more valid feedback as I couldn't take it anymore. One trend I did notice was AI civs moving rapidly through eras by pursuing a single tech line. I'll watch that specifically in the next game.

You're correct about those being the two xml files to disable.

Ill release versions that don't have the oversized graphics - I may keep the ships the same size though as I too like them larger.

Future versions will have custom government pictures and icons for better immersion.

The AI is definitely capable of advancing through era's faster with the new tech tree but then again so is the player. My goal with the new Tech Tree was to force specific paths to be chosen with certain Techs being left in the wayside. I didn't want the player to have to unlock 90% of all Tech's to get to Future Tech. I wanted there to be options.

Glad you like it so far

[heinous_hat]

The other interesting thing I noticed was how the AI seemed to value luxury resources differently in diplomacy (which would make sense). There was at least one different offer structure that I had not seen before where several parties included sole instances of luxuries in multi item exchanges, something they would not do in vanilla where those resources have greater value with regard to the happiness mechanic. Can't remember the exact details, but perhaps you know what I mean.

[Slowpoke]

This method of happiness isn't severe enough really. ICS promotes level 5-6 cities, and in this mod level 5 cities produce 0 unhappiness. Citizens not producing science but scientists doing so is also a massive help to ICS, since in ICS you build a library in all cities. You're gonna help ICS a whole lot If you're going this route, you're going to have to do something more extreme like...

15 initial happiness, up from 9
7-8 unhappiness per city
Library gives one or no specialists.

Actually there's really no way to make the citizens giving no science thing to work. I suggest keeping citizens the way they are and nerfing libraries and scientists.

Edit: So the ICS problem isn't really fixed, but the other changes are pretty interesting. I too used unhappiness per military unit once, and I'm not sure if eliminating that from my own mod was a good idea. I guess I thought people would complain or something I'm gonna DL it to check out the policy tree real quick.

[markusbeutel]

Originally Posted by Slowpoke

This method of happiness isn't severe enough really. ICS promotes level 5-6 cities, and in this mod level 5 cities produce 0 unhappiness. You're gonna help ICS a whole lot If you're going this route, you're going to have to do something more extreme like...

15 initial happiness, up from 9
7-8 unhappiness per city

I thought long and hard about these issues as well. That's why I took the following steps:

1. Upon founding your first city at Prince level or higher, initial Happiness is 1.
2. With 7-8 unhappiness, (I tried 10 in testing), per city - I found it became too tedious to manage growth. I ended up going with 5, but only after I altered how the rest of the Happiness in the game works.
3. With Buildings/Resources nerfed to 1 Happiness and Military Units contributing a significant amount of Unhappiness to your empire, ICS is severely disabled. Having 5 Horseman Units alone would contribute 10 Unhappiness and potentially nullify 2 of your level 5-6 cities.

At the very least ICS expansion would be slowed - at least until cities have been improved a significant amount. At this point, Military Unhappiness, (Military Weariness in the mod), would rear it's head.

Previous exploits of Horseman in general will also not apply as often as they have been moved further along a custom Tech Tree. This Tech Tree also has various branching paths and the AI can exploit this as much as the player. What I mean by this is that pursuing Horseback Riding leads to a dead end on the Tech Tree whereas a more cultured route will lead to more powerful Military Units.

Nerfing Science per population also further cripples ICS as it is the largest cities that will be producing the most amount of Science through their Buildings.

But by all means try the mod out. Just because it worked for my play style means nothing and somebody else could probably just as easily find loopholes and exploit those.

[Slowpoke]

Alright, I'm going to play a match to show how it went because you put a lot of work into it, but the balance is goign to need a huge amount of work. I can already see whole policy trees being worthless and more ways to make ICS work out.

[Slowpoke]

Okay playtested the game for you and found some flaws.

First off: Difficulties are totally borked. Because the A.I. has massive growth rates at the upper end and you need to wait to size 4 to expand, Deity is impossible and immortal is probably impossible. They have no expansion limit and when you struggle to have an army of size 3, they have an army of size 10. Furthermore, lower difficulties are screwed because the A.I. has no such handicp and cannot understand the mechanics. This makes king, emperor, and maybe immortal the only difficulties in the entire game.

Second: Food is EVERYTHING. That's a problem. The only reason for science early game is to get civil service, and the only policy tree is food.

Third: After civil service, you spam cities without stop. Period. More cities = more happiness = more army size. Furthermore, you get an army that can conquer a single A.I. city and you've won the game from steamrolling. Furthermore, because there's no happy limit on emperor for the A.I.s, A.I.s start becoming runaways immediately.

Fourth: Lose a big city and you've lost the game. Probably best to lower minor unhappy all the way down to 25%

[markusbeutel]

Originally Posted by Slowpoke

Okay playtested the game for you and found some flaws.

First off: Difficulties are totally borked. Because the A.I. has massive growth rates at the upper end and you need to wait to size 4 to expand, Deity is impossible and immortal is probably impossible. They have no expansion limit and when you struggle to have an army of size 3, they have an army of size 10. Furthermore, lower difficulties are screwed because the A.I. has no such handicp and cannot understand the mechanics. This makes king, emperor, and maybe immortal the only difficulties in the entire game.

Second: Food is EVERYTHING. That's a problem. The only reason for science early game is to get civil service, and the only policy tree is food.

Third: After civil service, you spam cities without stop. Period. More cities = more happiness = more army size. Furthermore, you get an army that can conquer a single A.I. city and you've won the game from steamrolling. Furthermore, because there's no happy limit on emperor for the A.I.s, A.I.s start becoming runaways immediately.

Fourth: Lose a big city and you've lost the game. Probably best to lower minor unhappy all the way down to 25%

Thanks for trying it out so quickly - you've reaffirmed some of my suspicions as well as some of my hopes to be perfectly honest.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke

Because the A.I. has massive growth rates at the upper end and you need to wait to size 4 to expand, Deity is impossible and immortal is probably impossible.

Did you playtest the game on Diety? Kudos of if you did I've already lowered normal Unhappiness growth from 75% to 50% and extreme Unhappiness growth from 100% to 75% in evening the playing field a little bit. As far as for Diety and Immortal being close to impossible - I think that is a good thing.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke

Furthermore, lower difficulties are screwed because the A.I. has no such handicp and cannot understand the mechanics.

Lower difficulties were already screwed before I came out with this mod. On the lowest difficulty setting the AI is not even ALLOWED to start a war with you. The first three difficulty levels are also kind of a joke to begin with and I doubt many people that have already started playing mods will be on those levels. I could be wrong though - and if that's the case I'll look into fixing that issue.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke

Second: Food is EVERYTHING. That's a problem. The only reason for science early game is to get civil service, and the only policy tree is food.

Food is now extremely important. This is the second point I make at the start of this mod's explanation. I'd argue that Science is just as important as by not developing your Science buildings/policies it'll take you forever to get to civil service. With Trading Post's limited to Plains, money also becomes an issue later on in the game as EVERYTHING is more expensive to purchase so that becomes more of an issue end-game.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke

After civil service, you spam cities without stop. Period. More cities = more happiness = more army size.

If this is the case shouldn't you be able to keep pace with the AI on the impossible Immortal and Diety levels? Armies at the Tech Level of Civil Service also have already increased their Unhappiness rating to 2.5 per unit so if this doesn't reign your army in, that fact that Civil Service is in a DEAD END portion of the new Tech Tree will. While you've been beelining for Civil service, other players could be beelining Steel or Gunpowder or Metallurgy. I placed Civil Service at this point on the Tech Tree for this very reason as it truly is a powerful Tech to have. Yet, I would argue, it's still not as powerful as vanilla Civil Service because increased growth in vanilla CiV = Science.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke

Furthermore, because there's no happy limit on emperor for the A.I.s, A.I.s start becoming runaways immediately.

I'm not sure what you mean by Happy limit. The same rules apply to the AI for all new features, they just get bonuses in the form of everything. This is CIV. Nothing new here. And in vanilla CiV every game there are AI runways anyways so if my mod is no different, that doesn't bother me.

Originally Posted by Slowpoke

Fourth: Lose a big city and you've lost the game. Probably best to lower minor unhappy all the way down to 25%

Again, I don't see how this is a bad thing. If the game proves to be more difficult as a result of the mechanics of this mod, I'm all for that.



I appreciate that you took the time to run a play-through of the mod. Most of your flaws regarding difficulty I don't have a problem with as I'm all for making this game more difficult.

I'm also not entirely sure you played a complete play-through. If you did you would have found that by taking out an AI city, that city`s population is lowered to 10% of it`s total instead of 50%. This, combined with the fact that the Unhappiness of citizens in conquered cities is 1 per population, (slightly less than the 1.34 in vanilla CiV), means that by taking over a size 10 AI city, you would be left with a size 1 city with +5 Unhappiness that is escalating. I can`t see how you think you can steamroll over cities through Civil Service when each city you take over, (even if puppeted), will leave you with an automatic Unhappiness penalty.

Overall, I`m sorry it didn`t live up to expectations for you - but I did say I didn`t think it would be for everyone. I will look into possibly devaluing food if others feel it is an overpowered resource.
Thanks again for your input.

I would be curious to know how others feel about the mod up to this point.

[Slowpoke]

Well, I guess most of this you'll find out with some playtesting of your own (major problems with the mod really don't show their face until about turn 60 so you really gotta do a full playtest). Putting science into military is not very good, as the extra happiness hits promotes more lower military. So beelining Civil Service is the only way to go after some little ancient era techs.

The reason early-mid game ICS doesn't let you compete on immortal/deity is that you're outexpanded by turn 80 (you could get it by 60 with some very early investment in scientists, but it slows your expansion too much). You can't ICS very fast without the farming food policy or civil service. I'm not sure the exact mechanic causes it, but even on immortal the enemy builds pretty rediculous hordes. You can take cities with a rush, but there isn't much point until civil service.

As far as difficulties, you want the range to be larger than king-immortal because it gives players less of a jump in difficulties. If king is too easy and emperor is too hard, people will just stop playing. I'd actually recommend my "extra difficulties" mod component, as having "halfway" difficulties would benefit this a lot. It's just an xml file or two so merging would be no problem.

Lastly, you don't want such a huge focus on food because it limits strategies. Expanding strategies is really the entire reason for eliminating ICS. If the only way to play well is to spam farms everywhere and always take food policy, it gets pretty tedious.