PlayWithMe

alpaca

King of Ungulates
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
2,322
PlayWithMe: The Mod

Welcome to the project thread of PlayWithMe, my very own gameplay-enhancement mod: Play Civ5 the way it was meant to be!

PWM is a gameplay design and balance mod for Civilization 5. It aims to improve core gameplay without changing the subject matter: You will still start as a lowly city-state with high-flying dreams in 4000 B.C.

Expand, grow, conquer and negotiate your way to victory. The world is your oyster - you just have to find the right spoon to eat it!

News
28.12.: v5 released (bugfix release)
23.12.: v4 released. Thanks for the hotfix @Shaun Seckman
15.12.: The new patch broke Lua saving, so this mod won't work until further notice :sad:
08.12.: v3 released

General Notes
Please note that this mod is work in development. It's in a very early stage and many things I have envisioned are not yet in place. Nevertheless, for me it is already quite of an improvement on vanilla - so I decided to share it with you. This also has the more pragmatic reason of getting feedback and test results, so if you try the mod by all means share your impressions (I can't guarantee I'll heed suggestions but I'll certainly read them).

FAQ & Known Issues
  • You don't see the unit panel or your game is otherwise broken: Try removing all previous versions of PWM, and if you have none, all other mods from the MODS folder and then try again. If the problem persists, let me know

Recommended mods
I would like to point you to the following:
  • CivWillard by Onni, probably the most useful UI mod out there
  • robk's excellent InfoAddict. If you miss the demographics graphs from Civ4, this is for you
  • My own Improved Notifications mod that adds notifications for city growth beyond size 5, and notifications when your city grabs a new tile by culture. As a bonus, it also allows you to switch on and off the existing notifications in vanilla. Find it here
  • A small thing, but if you'd like to rotate your camera, I made a little mod for the purpose

Compatibility
v4
Spoiler :

This mod modifies the following vanilla files and is incompatible with other mods modifying them:
  • UI/InGame/InfoTooltipInclude.lua
  • UI/InGame/TopPanel.lua
  • UI/InGame/Popups/EconomicGeneralInfo.lua
  • UI/InGame/Popups/EconomicGeneralInfo.xml
  • UI/InGame/WorldView/ActionIcons.lua
  • UI/InGame/WorldView/UnitPanel.lua
  • Gameplay/Lua/AssignStartingPlots.lua

Installation

Now available via the Mod Browser! Just browse or search for it and install.

If you downloaded from the CivFanatics downloads section, put the .civ5mod file into your My Documents/My Games/Sid Meier's Civilization 5/MODS folder. Then start the game, click on Mods, accept the disclaimer, click on Browse Mods and on the bottom right there should be an install button. If you click it, PWM should appear in the list and you have to click the round check button on the right of the mod text. That's it, now you can play with the Mod by going to the Mods menu and clicking on Single Player, setting up everything as you normally would.

Please disable all other non-recommended mods because I can't guarantee you won't have compatibility issues. If you play with non-recommended mods, you do so at your own risk and I will be more hesitant to accept feedback from you.


The What (about the mod's content)
Make sure you also read the changelog because some minor changes aren't listed in the long description (mostly unique unit changes)

v4
Spoiler :
Resource Yield Changes
One of the things I thoroughly missed when migrating from Civ4 to Civ5 were the awesome yields of some resources, mainly food and some of the luxuries. The high yields of, for example, Corn, always got me excited when I found a spot with three corn fields in the vicinity. I just knew this city was going to be great, that I would be able to turn it into a Great Person machine, a production powerhouse (if hills were nearby) or a research center.

In Civ5, on the other hand, special tiles are often only marginally better, sometimes actively worse, than base tiles. Not only does this remove a lot of interesting decisions and emotions concerning city placement, it also contributes to the fact that small cities are so good in this game. High yields for certain tiles make it more interesting to add them to a larger city rather than to your next ICS city, and they give you more of an incentive to spread out your empire rather than settle a dense cluster of cities.

Improving resource yields also allowed me to add some more diversity to resources. Some are better at certain things than others: Sheep add some gold, but Cows are better at generating food. Wheat is best, especially if improved by Civil Service or Fertilizer. Gold, Marble, Dyes and especially Incense now add some culture when improved, allowing you to set up cultural powerhouse cities if you have multiple copies.

The new yields are (first column base yield, second column improved yield)

Iron 2H 4H
Coal 2H 4H
Horse 1H2G 2H4G
Oil 1H2G 2H4G
Aluminum 1H1G 2H1G1S
Uranium 1H 2H2S

Wheat 2F 4F (plus CS, etc.)
Cow 1F1H 3F1H
Sheep 1F1G 2F2G1H
Deer 2F 4F
Banana 2F1G 4F1G
Fish 2F 3F1G

Whale 1F1G 1F2G2H
Pearls 1F2G 1F5G
Gold 2G 3G1C (6G1C with mint)
Silver 2G 5G (8G with mint)
Gems 3G 6G
Silk 3G 6G
Fur 2G 5G
Cotton 2G 5G
Marble 1G1H 2G1H1C
Incense 2G 2G2C
Dyes 2G 4G1C
Ivory 1G1H 4G1H
Spices 1F1G 1F4G
Sugar 1F1G 1F3G
Wine 1F1G 2F2G

Note that some of these are done by adding new dummy improvements, so don't worry if "Build a Mine" appears three times in the Mining technology, this is working as intended.

Changes to City Growth and Culture Spread
Testing turned out that the previous balance for both food and culture was off in the late game, and even felt a bit fast in the early game. Higher food yield for food resources and hospitals in the late game interacted in unattractive ways with this, to aggravate the problem.

I returned to using something closer to the vanilla functions, with superlinear increases in bucket growth to slow down the late game land grabbing and city growth. The formulas I'm currently using are:

Food: 25 + 4n + n^1.6 (vanilla: 15 + 10n + n^1.8)
Culture: 15 + (3n)^1.3 (vanilla: 20 + (10n)^1.1)

The aim of the culture formula is to allow enough growth in the early game but slow it down enough that you won't get new tiles every other turn once you have broadcast towers up. In vanilla, this was a lot higher especially for small n

The food formula is meant to allow you to grow to something like size 15 quickly enough if you focus on food. Keep in mind that I slowed the tech speed, so compared to your research, this will be a lot faster than vanilla.

City maintenance and other anti-ICS tweaks
The fundamental reasons why city spamming is so effective in this game are twofold: Firstly, the cost of founding a new city is quite low, even compared to growing your old cities. Secondly, a new city will become profitable quite quickly because happiness fails at seriously hindering expansion.

Most mods I've seen that try to address ICS focus on tackling the second reason by nerfing happiness. In my opinion, this is the wrong way to go and similar to using an axe when a carving knife will do the job. Yes, happiness can be made so bad that you can't ICS anymore, but the result is almost invariably a gameplay that doesn't appeal to me because you can't expand anymore even if you have a good spot for a new city.

My approach is somewhat different and closer to how things worked in Civ4. Below are the changes I made to the system:

City Maintenance
I re-introduced a City Maintenance cost that increases non-linearly with the number of cities. It is quite simple at this point: The nth non-capital city you found costs you n gold per turn. So the first city after your capital costs 1, the next 2, the 10th 10 and so on.

This city maintenance isn't very noticeable at first but depending on your playstyle it can soon develop into your largest expense. For each new city to be a profitable addition to your empire, it has to provide more in terms of research, gold or production than the last one had to.

It still makes sense to found or conquer your 20th city, if it's in a good position allowing it to grow quickly to a decent size. But it won't turn in an immediate profit, like in vanilla.

To find out how much city maintenance you pay, hover over the gold income in the top panel or open your economic overview. The City Maintenance tooltip in the economic overview will also tell you how expensive the next city you found will be, so be sure to check it when you make your decision about founding a new city.

City maintenance is influence both by your difficulty level and by the size of the map you play. The way these modifiers work is that they are multiplied, not added. So if you have a 1.5 multiplier for playing Deity and a 1.5 multiplier for playing a tiny map, you'll end up with 225%, not 200%:

Code:
[B]Difficulty setting[/B]
Settler: 0.5
Chieftain: 0.75
Warlord: 0.9
Prince: 1
King: 1.1
Emperor: 1.2
Immortal: 1.3
Deity: 1.5

[B]Map Size[/B]
Duel: 2.0
Tiny: 1.5
Small: 1.25
Standard: 1
Large: 0.75
Huge: 0.5

Trading
Trading in vanilla yields 1.25*pop + 1 where pop is the population in the city you connect to your trade network. This favours small cities because of the fixed +1

In PWM the formula is pop - 1. It is, overall, lower than in vanilla - but then again you can more easily get large cities in PWM so it's ok in my opinion.

Base Tile Yield
Another reason why founding new cities rather than growing old ones is so good in vanilla is because the base tile is generally quite powerful. It adds at least 2F2P1G and each maritime city state ally adds +2 food to it. There are also a number of policies that increase it, such as Communism.

In PWM, I lowered the minimum yield to 2F1H. Your city will now not be as productive from the get-go, and in fact needs some hammer tiles (improved ones, preferably) to become useful. This also makes city placement more interesting: If you found a city on a hill, it will have +1 production. Near a river, +1 gold. On the other hand, an improved hill adds +3 production (with more later) so you may still end up better in the mid-term if you settle next to the hill unless you still have enough of them to work.

Additionally, Maritime city states now only add +1 food per city when you're at friends, with an additional +1 for the capital and another +1 for the capital if you're allied. This doesn't increase with hitting the Renaissance anymore. Maritime CS are now a lot worse than before but I think they are still useful enough to warrant getting them.

Settler Cost
Settlers cost 200 hammers now, their cost more than doubled. In vanilla, settlers were a lot too cheap. Your city growth is now halted for quite some time when building a settler, which introduces some interesting decisions re buying settlers or stopping horizontal growth altogether.

Improved Palace Yield
The palace is now even stronger than before. This change is partly to compensate for the lower base yields and increased settler cost but also to make expansion not quite as science-savvy. I was also unsatisfied about the low culture yield of the palace, especially compared to playing France.

The new yields are: 3 culture, 5 gold, 5 science, 4 production

Specialist changes
I would dearly like to separate the GPP pools for each of the Great People but this would be very hard to do without access to the C++ sources. For now, I settled on lowering the scientist yield to 2 science.

Both the library and the university have one scientist slot now, and the additional slot for the Wat (the Siamese unique university) is gone.

Combat Changes

Combat Modifiers
Flatland now doesn't yield a penalty anymore, except for Marsh and Fallout. Hills and forests provide a +50% defense bonus now. The flanking bonus has been upped to +25%

What these (plus increased hit points) amount to is that staying in formation is now a much more sensible decision. In fact, I've seen the AI use the flanking bonus exceedingly well, better even than I did because I wasn't used to the new balance, sometimes piling a +75% or even +100% bonus on my poor defenders.

Unit Maintenance
Unit maintenance now doesn't change with time anymore. Instead, maintenance is now a unit attribute. This change has, in my opinion, a lot of interesting effects: Workers are now not so expensive to maintain anymore, you have considerations of quantity vs quality (the most extreme example of this is the Knight), Great People don't cost maintenance, it makes sense to keep old units as garrisons for Military Caste, and you don't have invisible unit maintenance creep anymore even though you don't change your army at all.

The new maintenance costs are displayed in the unit tooltip in the game. I haven't added it to the Civilopedia yet.

Unit Cost
All units are now cheaper, the more so the more modern the unit is. This is likely to not be spot-on balanced yet so be sure to give me some feedback

Upgrades
Are removed. There are a number of reasons for this change, the most important one is that the player is much better at keeping his units alive than the AI, and highly upgraded veterans that are immediately upgraded to the best techs are a huge part of why combat is so easy in Civ5.

Without upgrades, you have to constantly create new units if you want an up-to-date army. It also creates a situation where veteran units with older weaponry can compete with newer, but untrained units. This point is further strengthened by a flatter unit strength progression when compared to vanilla.

Hit points and healing
In vanilla, units die fast and heal fast. This contribtues to a situation where the player can get insanely good combat results against the AI. In PWM, units have 20 hitpoints and healing of units is reduced to 1 hp, everywhere.

These changes combine to turn hitpoints into more of a resource: Unit hit points can not be easily restored anymore while at war, so you might be better off to let your old units die and produce reinforcements to replace them. Some healing is still possible, which allows you to keep a few veterans alive should you so desire, and to avoid some AI pitfalls.

All healing promotions, including March, have been removed. Especially instant healing.

City Defenses
Cities are now stronger. They start out at 10 strength, the palace provides an additional +5 instead of +2. Cities also have 30 hp, so you'd better bring reinforcements and do a lot of damage to capture them.

Unit strength
The unit strength progression over the ages is now significantly less steep. This, together with no upgrades, removes some of the worse effects of slingshotting army techs and makes for a more continuous development of your armed forces. Old veterans or unique units can now successfully fight against newer unit types.

Fortification Bonus
I removed the fortification bonus because I felt turtling in formation was a bit too strong and that it promoted letting the AI come to you somewhat more than I like with the removal of the flatland penalty. Needless to say, this was also removed because the AI very rarely fortifies its units sensibly.

Experience from combat
Has been simplified a bit. Melee combat now always yields 4 xp, ranged combat always yields 2, no matter if you attack or defend or what you attack.

Strategic Resource Abundance
In PWM, strategic resources are much more scarce, and the yield is more random. This makes hunting for the best iron deposits much more interesting and also makes strategic resources work more like they should: As a cap on the number of strong units.

Siege units
Siege units now have a different role than in vanilla. The catapult and Trebuchet are both weak against land units (get a -50% penalty) but get a +100% bonus against cities and a +50% defense bonus against ranged attacks.

More modern types of siege units, cannons and beyond, don't get the penalty against units but also don't get the extra city or ranged attack bonuses. They have a higher base ranged attack, though, so they shouldn't be worse at taking cities.

Because they are so important for taking cities, siege units don't require iron anymore.

Mounted units
I followed the community-established logic that will also be featured in the next patch and gave mounted units a -30% attack penalty against cities (tanks also have -30% now). In addition to this change, I redesigned the roles horsemen and knights fulfill.

Horsemen are now a flanking unit: They keep their 4 moves but their strength is reduced to 9. They have two primary roles of providing flanking bonuses to other units, possibly attacking with high flanking bonuses, then retreating to safety; and to harass enemy archers and catapults.

Knights are now a very strong unit that dominate the flatland. They keep the 18 strength from vanilla while Longswords are now at only 15. Knights, however, now cost 1 horse and 1 iron and they have a high maintenance cost. Basically, knights are meant to break enemy formations and destroy their units but if Longswords have strong terrain, they keep the advantage.

Barbarians
Barb encampments spawn fewer units and they yield 50 gold on being destroyed now. Barbs are also indirectly boosted by the low healing and higher HP because they never heal.

One of the most important government functions in the early game is now to protect your citizens from barbarians. Consider yourself warned in case your empire is pillaged.

Tech and Policy Changes
I haven't done much in these areas yet, but there are some small changes that I felt were too important to leave out

Tech costs
Techs are now significantly more expensive, with a multiplier that depends on the era. The best way to check this out is to see for yourself. I'm not sure modern techs are properly balanced because I only really tested up to medieval so far.

Iron
Is now revealed with Bronze Working so you don't waste 20-30 turns researching Iron Working if you have no iron nearby. You can build mines but they won't connect the resource until you research Iron Working, so no Knights before IW, either.

Tile yield changes
I added a +1 production boost to mines for Dynamite and a +1 gold boost for trade posts for Economics. The Great Person improvements also become significantly more powerful with time:

  • manufactory has 5 hammers + 1 at Machinery + 2 at Replaceable Parts + 2 at Robotics
  • customs house has 10 gold + 5 at Currency + 5 at Banking + 5 at Globalisation
  • academy has 8 science + 4 at Education + 4 at Scientific Theory + 4 at Computers
  • landmark has 12 culture, + 5 gold at Archaeology, +10 gold at Mass Media
  • citadels now do 5 damage per turn to adjacent units, +5 gold, +1 production, +3 science at Military Science

Great Person changes
Great persons are a work in progress. I'm meaning to make them more competitive to each other so it becomes situational which GP you want to get.

  • Great Scientists now yield a number of beakers that depends on the number of techs you researched rather than granting you a free tech (500 + (number of techs)^2). Note: This is added to your currently researched tech instead of popping up an interface to choose one.
  • Great Merchant missions now provide 500 gold + 250 gold per era
  • Great Engineer provides 300 production + 100 production per era
  • Great Artists haven't been changed yet but are planned to get a culture mission similar to the Great Scientist's tech mission
  • GP improvements have been buffed, they now provide: Academy: 8 beakers, Citadel: 5 gold + 1 hammer, Customs House: 10 gold, Landmark: 12 culture, Manufactory: 5 production. In addition to this, they become much stronger as your technology progresses (see above)

Roads and Railroads changes
Roads and Railroads have been made a little more interesting and work now more like an improvement than a city bonus. Both provide +1 gold for any tile they are built on, to simulate trade and help you pay their maintenance.

The railroad production bonus you got for connecting your cities has been dropped and replaced by a tile bonus of 1 production if the tile has one of the following improvements: mine, gold mine, quarry, pasture, lumbermill, fort, manufactory or citadel

Other changes
This is a small assortment of changes that don't really deserve their own category.

Cheaper happiness golden ages
I didn't like how in vanilla you got a first happiness golden age (which was balanced ok) but then the cost of the next one doubled immediately, making it bad compared to spending your happiness on growth. The cost for each subsequent golden age now only increases by 100, so the first still costs 500, the next 600, and so on.

Each city now increases the cost of a happiness golden age by 5% (1% in vanilla)

We Love The King Day
I like the idea but at +25% to the food surplus, the WLTKD just meant another notification you have to click away. I increased the bonus to +100% so you get a more useful reward for acquiring the resource. It is, however, shortened to 10 turns now and has a (30 turn) cooldown period that should be active in vanilla but apparently doesn't work.

The idea behind this is that a WLTKD now provides a short-term population boost for your city (a quite significant one, I might add). It also allows a city to grow through unhappiness a lot more easily, so be aware of this if you're getting close to the very unhappy threshold. Obviously, a strong short boost is much preferable to a small but longer boost because it makes a lot more sense to switch to food working tiles. Make sure you time things so you're in a happy phase!

Sea tile yield
Is increased by 1 gold per tile. Sea tiles (both coast and ocean) with a lighthouse are now like a Trade Post on grassland, without the option of getting +1 science. This allows you to go for a commerce specialisation for coastal cities and makes working sea tiles at least somewhat useful.

Occupied unhappiness
Population unhappiness in annexed cities without a courthouse is now at 1.5/pop. This was changed to prevent Police State annexed cities becoming better than cities with a courthouse or self-founded ones.

Professional Army
Now provides +15 xp for melee, archery and gunpowder units. With upgrades removed I felt it necessary to change this to something more useful. I didn't address the Pentagon yet, so just don't build it.

Early Social Policies
With a higher palace culture, the first social policy was now changed to 45 culture (you get it in 15 turns with a normal civ, still faster than the first policy in vanilla).

Culture Spread
Coast tiles are now easier to get by culture. Your city will spread to a coastal tile before a forest or hill but after a flatland tile.

Workers uncapturable
I didn't like how in vanilla the best strategy is to take a worker from your enemies or a City State. Therefore, workers are now uncapturable.



Thanks to
Whys for his SaveUtils
Shaun Seckman@Firaxis for getting out a hotfix before Christmas
Kael for the Modder's Guide
luddite (pi-r8), Paeanblack, Martin Alvito, Slowpoke and Sneaks for interesting ideas and discussions
Everyone I stole good ideas or coding help from and who isn't mentioned yet
 

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One of the things I thoroughly missed when migrating from Civ4 to Civ5 were the awesome yields of some resources, mainly food and some of the luxuries. The high yields of, for example, Corn, always got me excited when I found a spot with three corn fields in the vicinity.

I am very excited about this. Exploring and finding the perfect spot for a city was always my favorite part of CIV 1 - 4. I miss that in CIV5.

Downloading now!
 
It seems that the game doesn't like unpacking empty SQL files and crashed during the installation. I fixed the mod pack, please re-download it if you grabbed it earlier than this post ;)

Sorry for the inconvenience, I should have tested actually installing the mod instead of making assumptions.
 
I started a game with this mod today. Low resource yields is one thing that really bugged me about the game, and I'm happy to see high resource bonuses finally get modded in. I'd recommend coming up with a better name for the mod though, you won't get many views or downloads with a non-descriptive mod name.
 
Wow, good work! I'll have to play around with this and see how it goes. I love the city maintenence idea and tile yield changes. Do you know what the maintenence formula was in civ 4? As I recall it was quite complicated and nonlinear.

I'm also really glad that you made city and culture growth linear. I have no idea why they thought that it would be a good idea for those to increase in cost so fast.

I don't like your trade route formula, though. 1.5*pop - 1 + 0.2*capitalPop will be just like the old formula, a +1 bonus/city as soon as they capital is larger than sizee 10. What about changing the capital size to a factor, instead of a term? Something like: 1.5*pop*0.1*capitalPop - 1.

I agree, it would be much better to separate the gpp pools for the differnent specialists- i hate how getting a different type of great person basically costs me a great scientist. Can you change the effect of the great people, instead? For example, make every great artist grant you a free social policy, and every great engineer gives a free wonder.

Anyway I'll try and give you more feedback after I've tested it out.
 
Heya, you might want to alter your golden age formula. I've tried that sort of thing in my mod and the A.I. goes NUTS with golden ages. If you're gonna keep it, you'll need to do two things: lower deity/immortal A.I. happy bonus. It really doesn't need the extra happy above emperor, it all goes to GAs. Second: Nerf persia a bit. +100 sounds a bit low anyways, I'd go with +200-300

Edit: Also, I'm gonna steal your city maintenance code, but you stole some of mine so I assume you're cool with that :p
 
Heya, you might want to alter your golden age formula. I've tried that sort of thing in my mod and the A.I. goes NUTS with golden ages. If you're gonna keep it, you'll need to do two things: lower deity/immortal A.I. happy bonus. It really doesn't need the extra happy above emperor, it all goes to GAs. Second: Nerf persia a bit.

I think it's more important to make a game that's playable and interesting on the levels of prince, king, and emperor. If the immortal/deity levels are insane, that's not really a big problem and it can be tweaked later.
 
Well in any case +100 is really low and will make a piety persia dominate once it he gets theatres (actually colosseums even). I'd argue that immortal is pretty important too, because lower levels are still pretty easy due to lux trades being messed up at 300 gold. It'll be a great day when mods have the tools to fix that.

Edit: Not saying +500 is better, but I've done the testing to show that +100 won't work out as intended.
 
Well in any case +100 is really low and will make a piety persia dominate once it he gets theatres (actually colosseums even). I'd argue that immortal is pretty important too, because lower levels are still pretty easy due to lux trades being messed up at 300 gold. It'll be a great day when mods have the tools to fix that.

Edit: Not saying +500 is better, but I've done the testing to show that +100 won't work out as intended.

yeah that's a good point. Actually the whole golden age system has always bugged me- either you'll get another golden age soon, or you won't, and if you won't get a golden age for a long time then it's basically pointless to have any excess happiness. Maybe we could also shorten the length of golden ages? Limit them to just 2 turns each (3 for persia) or something like that.
 
The mod name is non-descriptive by design. I don't mind not having many players for a while, I'm mainly modding for my own enjoyment. In time, I believe a good mod will attract players, the name doesn't matter so much for people who really take their time to read through changelogs and such for mods.

I agree with the trade route mechanic. I'm currently using the vanilla implementation which is additive. It's mainly a test and I haven't gotten around to playtesting it much yet but when I released the mod yesterday, I saw the same problem as you, so I will likely change it back in v2.

Edit: Also, I'm gonna steal your city maintenance code, but you stole some of mine so I assume you're cool with that :p

Sure thing. I don't agree with some of your important changes, which is why I don't play Megamod, but I'm all for free sharing of mod ideas. I didn't steal any code except from Whys but I did take a look at other people's ideas.

For the maintenance you only need CityMaintenance.lua, TopPanel.lua and the localisation.


Golden ages:

First of all, thanks for the tip slowpoke. On Immortal, the AI is practically always in a golden age anyways because of their huge happiness bonus. At this stage, I'm more focused on making the game interesting for the player, so I will try to find a balance that allows a strategy based on happiness golden ages to be fruitful. The AI can be adjusted later, I don't think it needs as much happiness as it has in vanilla, anyways. I will keep it in mind.

I like your idea luddite. I'll try to make golden ages more frequent but smaller, this could be quite interesting from a strategic point of view because you get a large number of small boosts (and alleviate f the "I don't accumulate points while in golden age" problem a bit) that maybe allow you to base a strategy on it. It would make the golden ages less "wow!" though, if you know what I mean. At the moment, the happiness golden ages feel special compared to the GP golden ages because they're a lot longer.

I think changing the effect of GP is possible, I like the artist idea. Would make them useful but one has to be careful not to make them OP
 
The AI doesn't handle the settler cost changes or the tile value changes at all effectively. In particular, the fact that city sites can easily have almost no production leads to them building a lot of really dumb cities, and they tend to expand to their own financial doom rather quickly without accounting for bureaucracy costs. This might be nice for multiplayer.. but the AI handles all these changes far far worse than vanilla.

IMHO, I like what you've done with gold costs instead of happiness, I agree its a lot more fun, but I think messing around with some of the basics of the game (settler cost, production for cities) screws up too many things for the AI.
 
I played your mod to turn 85 yesterday (no more time or it would be more :) )

long post follows, but hopefully constructive feedback

Tile Yield:
I love the higher tile yields. Since improving a special resource now gives an extra surplus of minimum +2 food/prod and often some gold and a new city tile only gives you 2 free food, it becomes worthwhile to improve your specials before expanding (like CIV 4).

REX:
My strategy was a “REX to resources” much like in CIV 4, but I am keeping the option of backfilling open ;) Currently I have about 7 cities at pop 4-5 at turn 85 which Is less than I usually have in vanilla. My gold income seems OK (increased tile yield + trade route compensates for the increased maintenance I Guess)

Minimum city yield:
You might want to consider setting the city tile min yield to 2F 1H like it was in CIV 4 or alternatively 1F 1H. I find that under the 2F regime I will settle hills exclusively because it’s just that good. You give up 1 hammer long term from the mine improvement but IMO unless you have zero other hills nearby I want a 2F 2H city square. Settling grassland is very unattractive, while plains is somewhat OK. I can live with hills being slightly better, but I don’t like that plains are superior city sites to grassland. IMO grassland and plains should be “equal” for city placement, but that’s just how I feel about it.

Special resources:
I did not want to settle on specials in my trial game, because the tile improvements are all over pretty good now. That’s a good change, I used to settle calendar resources where possible before, I probably won’t be doing this anymore.

Culture:
I played France, and I must say that the faster culture tile claiming is great. For other civs, the 60 hammer monument may be a significant obstacle still, despite all changes. Isn’t that pretty close to 50% of the cost of a liberty settler already? I think maybe monuments are a tad overpriced – not sure.

Policies:
Policies were coming really fast with the extra culture from the Palace (as France I had 5 culture/turn from turn 1) meaning that meritocracy came really fast. To be honest, I like it, and I think the non-France civs will benefit greatly from this (makes it more fun if you get some early policy choices – 1 culture/turn is low and early monument is just "ugh"...

AI expansion:
I played at Deity, and normally the AI rexes like a mofo… it SEEMED to me like the AI expanded a lot slower now – this may just be a “feeling” rather than hard facts, but it may be that the AI prioritizes settlers less when they cost more? I was able to snag two pretty good city sites, one from Rhamkhang-guy and one from Cathrine.

Maritime City states:
The lower food yields seem very good, not much more to say. I still think it’s a great bonus at just +1 food ( and the capital food Is allways nice).

Sea tiles:
Maybe I missed this in your change notes, but sea tiles give 2 gold base now. “undocumented” change? Anyway, I like it, and it makes sea-cities OK for commerce - definitely keep this.

Tooltip:
I noticed that the tooltip for the palace did not reflect the new palace yield – a really minor thing but maybe you want to change it at some point.

City growth:
I have to play a bit more of course, but the cost of growing a citizen still seem quite steep – I guess citizen 10 will cost 100 food? In CIV 4 he would cost 40 food I think. May be OK with the higher settler cost.

We love the king day:
100% bonus – I like this a lot. Now a pretty meaningful bonus if a couple of your cities desire the same luxury.

Library + Science specialists
I think 1 scientist slot + just 2 gpp is too restrictive – I think one or the other is sufficient. It’s hard to explain but it just “feels” too restrictive to me.
 
I played your mod to turn 85 yesterday (no more time or it would be more :) )

long post follows, but hopefully constructive feedback
Thanks a lot for the feedback, it's very useful indeed. I'll answer to some of your points

REX:
My strategy was a “REX to resources” much like in CIV 4, but I am keeping the option of backfilling open ;) Currently I have about 7 cities at pop 4-5 at turn 85 which Is less than I usually have in vanilla. My gold income seems OK (increased tile yield + trade route compensates for the increased maintenance I Guess)

Yes, I'm tinkering with the thought of increasing the city maintenance. The question is what is "too large" of an empire? If I set maintenance too high, backfilling will be removed completely as an option, which I don't want. As it is, I'll need more test games myself and more feedback from players to decide.

Minimum city yield:
You might want to consider setting the city tile min yield to 2F 1H like it was in CIV 4 or alternatively 1F 1H. I find that under the 2F regime I will settle hills exclusively because it’s just that good. You give up 1 hammer long term from the mine improvement but IMO unless you have zero other hills nearby I want a 2F 2H city square. Settling grassland is very unattractive, while plains is somewhat OK. I can live with hills being slightly better, but I don’t like that plains are superior city sites to grassland. IMO grassland and plains should be “equal” for city placement, but that’s just how I feel about it.

I think you are right about this. 2F1H might make more sense. I'd like to keep gold at 0 to provide an additional incentive to settling near rivers. I agree about plains vs grassland, plains are already stronger.

Special resources:
I did not want to settle on specials in my trial game, because the tile improvements are all over pretty good now. That’s a good change, I used to settle calendar resources where possible before, I probably won’t be doing this anymore.

Culture:
I played France, and I must say that the faster culture tile claiming is great. For other civs, the 60 hammer monument may be a significant obstacle still, despite all changes. Isn’t that pretty close to 50% of the cost of a liberty settler already? I think maybe monuments are a tad overpriced – not sure.

Good to hear. I'll address building balance in a future version, monuments are on my mental list but I'm not sure what I want to do about them. In Civ4, monuments were extra cheap but provided very little culture. You did have monasteries to provide more culture later and a lot of buildings like the library added culture. I'm thinking that the monument could be set to 1 culture for only 25 or 30 hammers and about muddling up the strong separation between different building trees a bit.

For example, I'm thinking about giving the temple a population-dependent happiness like Colosseums have in Dale's ICS mod and giving the Theatre some culture yield in addition to happiness. I'm also probably going to split science buildings into a specialist tree (which could also provide a bit of culture maybe), a pop-based tree and a multiplier tree. Anyways, I'll open a discussion when I'm tackling buildings because I have to investigate and develop some ideas first. It will probably be in the next couple of days, though.

Policies:
Policies were coming really fast with the extra culture from the Palace (as France I had 5 culture/turn from turn 1) meaning that meritocracy came really fast. To be honest, I like it, and I think the non-France civs will benefit greatly from this (makes it more fun if you get some early policy choices – 1 culture/turn is low and early monument is just "ugh"...

Agree with this. The French ability is still great but the comparison to other civs is not so extreme anymore. On the other hand, France was one of the few civs that really played differently, and I'm removing part of this. Waiting for more feedback on this, too, I guess.

AI expansion:
I played at Deity, and normally the AI rexes like a mofo… it SEEMED to me like the AI expanded a lot slower now – this may just be a “feeling” rather than hard facts, but it may be that the AI prioritizes settlers less when they cost more? I was able to snag two pretty good city sites, one from Rhamkhang-guy and one from Cathrine.

Maritime City states:
The lower food yields seem very good, not much more to say. I still think it’s a great bonus at just +1 food ( and the capital food Is allways nice).
Not sure about expansion, I haven't played on high difficulty levels yet because I want to get a feeling about the changes without a dragon breathing down my neck. I don't think the flavours should change but I'm no expert. Anyhow, the AI will get fewer settlers, of course, as do you.

Sea tiles:
Maybe I missed this in your change notes, but sea tiles give 2 gold base now. “undocumented” change? Anyway, I like it, and it makes sea-cities OK for commerce - definitely keep this.
Right! I completely forgot writing about this. Yes, sea tiles with lighthouses are now like trade-posted grassland with no social policy bonuses. I disliked how I was horrified of water, like a cat, so I boosted tile yield a little bit. Added to the OP.

Tooltip:
I noticed that the tooltip for the palace did not reflect the new palace yield – a really minor thing but maybe you want to change it at some point.

City growth:
I have to play a bit more of course, but the cost of growing a citizen still seem quite steep – I guess citizen 10 will cost 100 food? In CIV 4 he would cost 40 food I think. May be OK with the higher settler cost.

Right about the tooltip, I forgot to change it.

I'm definitely not as vain to say I have immediately found the right balance for growth, so I'm very open to opinions here. A pop point in Civ5 is worth more than one in Civ4, though, so you cannot directly take the numbers from the latter. I think I will steal an idea I've seen in Balance, which is to add an Aqueduct building that works similar to a granary in Civ4. Once again, I'll also have to say I want to wait for some more test data on this.

We love the king day:
100% bonus – I like this a lot. Now a pretty meaningful bonus if a couple of your cities desire the same luxury.

Library + Science specialists
I think 1 scientist slot + just 2 gpp is too restrictive – I think one or the other is sufficient. It’s hard to explain but it just “feels” too restrictive to me.

Maybe it's not needed if I can boost the other great people. Right now, a GS is a lot more powerful than any of the other GP so I want to give it a lower generation rate. I agree it's not a good way to balance it in principle but you also have to realize that university isn't far away to boost you to two slots. This will also likely be changed when I tackle buildings more fully.

The thing is that a scientist specialist is at 2 science and 3 GPP still easily better than any other specialist because the slot is on a building you always want, and science is something you don't get from tiles, in contrast to hammers and gold.
 
The AI doesn't handle the settler cost changes or the tile value changes at all effectively. In particular, the fact that city sites can easily have almost no production leads to them building a lot of really dumb cities, and they tend to expand to their own financial doom rather quickly without accounting for bureaucracy costs. This might be nice for multiplayer.. but the AI handles all these changes far far worse than vanilla.

IMHO, I like what you've done with gold costs instead of happiness, I agree its a lot more fun, but I think messing around with some of the basics of the game (settler cost, production for cities) screws up too many things for the AI.

Thanks for the feedback. I will take a look at the AI xmls to see if there's something I can change. Which difficulty setting are you playing on?
 
I did some more testing myself on Prince. First of all, I discovered a bug with the Maritime CS settings: They don't provide +1 food for all cities after Renaissance. I also noticed I forgot to properly add dyes and incense plantation so I'll probably release the next version more quickly than I'd planned and with few changes.

The city maintenance formula looks fine to me. The point isn't to punish you for expanding so much as for spamming cities in crappy locations. I played a game as China, was attacked by my neighbour Bismarck (whom I conquered because he started building the Great Library after declaring war :sad:) and started going into an ICS mode to test. After settling all good city locations with at least two resources (10 sites plus my capital), I quickly arrived at a situation where new cities were a bad idea for me.

At 11 cities, I had to pay 45 maintenance, almost as much as my other expenses combined. Founding another city meant going for a plain vanilla location (no resources), which didn't feel such a good idea because the city would have spent a lot of time building a Colosseum and Library, only to barely break even by converting money into science. I did have the happiness for it, however, so I decided to go for the long-term and let the city grow.

I also had to divert significant resources from my best production city and a very good food city to settler production to get these cities up and running before turn 125

This is pretty much the balance I wanted to achieve so I'm fairly happy with it: Expanding still makes sense if you can afford the wait until the city grows, but it's a substantial investment. It also doesn't make sense to simply spam small cities because they'll just incur a heavy financial loss that, after some point, isn't adequately compensated for by the science boost anymore.

The AI didn't expand as much as I'd have liked it to, but it generally selected quite good locations. If it would show some more inclination to build settlers in the beginning, things would be really fine, so I'll see if I can tweak it a bit.

Food cost did seem a bit steep to me, too, so I'll decrease the delta to 5 per new citizen. The first growth at 20 looks fine, though. I also increased the base tile min yield to 2F 1H so hills aren't quite as good anymore.

I'll leave the scientist change in place for now until I tackle buildings and tech tree things.

Edit: Forgot to mention: I kind of like the monument expensive. It means that you either buy a monument in the city or one or two tiles if they're important. I also like how it interacts with Representation, which becomes quite useful with faster culture grabbing speed and at least allows you to get 1 or 2 tiles. If that's all you need, you're fine. So I think I'll keep it for now.
 
Version 2 is online. Available here or in the Mod Browser.

Changelog:

v2:
- Changed min city yield to 2F1H
- reduced capital maritime bonus to +2 if allied
- fixed maritime CS not providing a bonus to all cities post renaissance
- fixed bug with dyes and incense not having a plantation
- lowered additional food cost for each citizen to 5
- removed culture spread visible divisor
- removed capital contribution to trade routes again
- WLTKD now 10 turns instead of 20
- testing a new happiness golden age balance; now only 5 turns but happiness requirement cut to half, too
 
alpaca
I really like what i see here so far :goodjob:
D/l v2 started a game and noticed that the cost of buying tiles has increased by 100%
as the min tile was 750 :eek:
feature or bug ?
also i know your are trying to slow down settler prod but maybe you have gone
a little bit to far the other way ? maybe
will be watching this project with interest
BSR
 
alpaca
I really like what i see here so far :goodjob:
D/l v2 started a game and noticed that the cost of buying tiles has increased by 100%
as the min tile was 750 :eek:
feature or bug ?
also i know your are trying to slow down settler prod but maybe you have gone
a little bit to far the other way ? maybe
will be watching this project with interest
BSR

This sounds like a bug. I think it has to do with a value I set, PLOT_INFLUENCE_DISTANCE_MULTIPLIER, that I thought was used for culture spreading only. Seems like it has to do with buying, too.
 
Version 2 is online. Available here or in the Mod Browser.

Changelog:

v2:
- Changed min city yield to 2F1H
- reduced capital maritime bonus to +2 if allied
- fixed maritime CS not providing a bonus to all cities post renaissance
- fixed bug with dyes and incense not having a plantation
- lowered additional food cost for each citizen to 5
- removed culture spread visible divisor
- removed capital contribution to trade routes again
- WLTKD now 10 turns instead of 20
- testing a new happiness golden age balance; now only 5 turns but happiness requirement cut to half, too

Will start a new game this evening, sounds like nice changes.

One question: where does the number of cities maintenance show up in the economy overview? it was not immediately obvious to me. I tried to check what affect this had on my economy and could not really see it.
 
Will start a new game this evening, sounds like nice changes.

One question: where does the number of cities maintenance show up in the economy overview? it was not immediately obvious to me. I tried to check what affect this had on my economy and could not really see it.

Hmm good point, I should probably add it to the economy overview. At the moment it's displayed in the mouse-over in the top panel that displays your gold per turn. In the economy overview it's part of building maintenance


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