sigh, diplomacy....

M

Matjillam

Warlord
Joined
Nov 11, 2006
Messages
112
So, at first I liked the new diplomacy and thought to my self: "now you can actually use diplomacy for something"

But boy was I wrong. The AI is just a crazy in diplomacy as allways :S

Just had a game where I am completely dogpiled. It started okay, but slowly I just got denounced again and again and recieving numerous diplomatic hits due to this. Really like the "your friend found a reason to denounce you". So, you get mad at me because my 'friend' is a total random lunatic that denounce me because I wouldn't give them free resources and he actually covet the land I own? :S

Now 6 civs think I'm a warmonering menace, even though I haven't conquered ANYTHING since 2000 BC (1 city from Iroqoius close to my capital). I haven't even been much to war, only joining Rome in war vs. Greece....

It kinda feels like before the patch. I feel like I'm OUTSIDE the diplomacy-discurring room just listening to the others getting more and more angry with me for just playing the game nice and steady...


God, I wish modders can do something over time. This really feels stupid :(
 
In the game I just played, I friended China and Songhai, they friended each other, all 3 of us denounced Russia and Ottoman, I proceeded to win Diplo victory. In the process I got messages like..

"O hey you're pals with China! I am too! They're pretty groovy."

and

"I see you denounced Russia. I did too. They are teh sux."

ok paraphrased... but still, I was amused and enlightened. Emperor difficulty, standard size earth map, playing as England.
 
Yeah, diplomacy is just a mess. I'm playing a game now where everybody I know hates me and considers me a menace. What did I do, you ask? The Aztecs declared war with me and Rome for some reason, and they conquered Antium, so I took Antium back intending to trade it back to Rome to see if I would get any love from them, but no dice. Rome instantly hated me, denounced me for expanding into their territory and told me that the sight of my territory is like a scourge upon the land and how they couldn't wait to see it gone.

Also, everybody on the block thinks I'm a warmonger and are mad at me because they covet lands I own, even though some of them are on the other side of the continent. It's ridiculous. :sad:

Another thing, make sure you don't do random CS quests by accident (like finding natural wonders or building wonders)! If you do, some civ is guaranteed to hate you because "you're moving in" on a CS they want to ally with.
 
Are you 2 playing prince or lower difficulties wherein you likely are significantly ahead of the AI's in points, land, tech, wonders, etc? The AI always hates the person in the lead. Could explain why you're having problems getting along with them.
 
Malkaviel said:
Are you 2 playing prince or lower difficulties wherein you likely are significantly ahead of the AI's in points, land, tech, wonders, etc? The AI always hates the person in the lead. Could explain why you're having problems getting along with them.
Click to expand...

No, this was King level. I had like 450 points where Alex had 550 and, 3-4 had the same as me and a couple had lower.

Oh, and I was also REALLY surprised not to see stuff like trading goods or gifting things didn't give you any diplo bonuses. So if they ask you for luxuries, they are indefferent if you give in and mad if you don't... Hmmmm....

FyshStyx said:
Another thing, make sure you don't do random CS quests by accident (like finding natural wonders or building wonders)! If you do, some civ is guaranteed to hate you because "you're moving in" on a CS they want to ally with.
Click to expand...

That's just silly :confused:
 
Matjillam said:
So, at first I liked the new diplomacy and thought to my self: "now you can actually use diplomacy for something"

But boy was I wrong. The AI is just a crazy in diplomacy as allways :S

Just had a game where I am completely dogpiled. It started okay, but slowly I just got denounced again and again and recieving numerous diplomatic hits due to this. Really like the "your friend found a reason to denounce you". So, you get mad at me because my 'friend' is a total random lunatic that denounce me because I wouldn't give them free resources and he actually covet the land I own? :S

Now 6 civs think I'm a warmonering menace, even though I haven't conquered ANYTHING since 2000 BC (1 city from Iroqoius close to my capital). I haven't even been much to war, only joining Rome in war vs. Greece....

It kinda feels like before the patch. I feel like I'm OUTSIDE the diplomacy-discurring room just listening to the others getting more and more angry with me for just playing the game nice and steady...


God, I wish modders can do something over time. This really feels stupid :(
Click to expand...

The xmls are too much of a mess to fix diplomacy I'm afraid. Until they unify opinion and approach modifiers into one concept, there really isn't a whole lot of point in trying to make sense of it.
 
Slowpoke said:
The xmls are too much of a mess to fix diplomacy I'm afraid. Until they unify opinion and approach modifiers, there really isn't a whole lot of point in trying to make sense of it.
Click to expand...

Ow, damnit! :(

I curse my self for being such a Civ-fan. I will go around for the next couple of years just hoping something can fix it. I should use my energy on stuff that is more likely to happen instead...
 
Oh it'll be fixed by someone probably when the sdk comes, but that'll take between 3 months and a year.
 
The patch didn't change the underlying mechanics of diplomacy, IMO. It just made it more transparent. The AI is still hates you as always, but at least now you know why - they "covet your lands"!

Also, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. It makes sense that for the AI, the desire for your territory would outweigh all other positive factors. After all, if I were in the AI's position, that is exactly how I would act - no matter how good you are to me, I would still attack you if it will further my position in the game.
 
Matjillam said:
Oh, and I was also REALLY surprised not to see stuff like trading goods or gifting things didn't give you any diplo bonuses. So if they ask you for luxuries, they are indefferent if you give in and mad if you don't... Hmmmm....

That's just silly :confused:
Click to expand...

It effects diplo. If you don't agree they remember it and if you do you won't get that minus. Its even stated in the diploscreen. You should not decline help requests from your friends as they tend to take that negativly.
 
Wezqu said:
It effects diplo. If you don't agree they remember it and if you do you won't get that minus. Its even stated in the diploscreen. You should not decline help requests from your friends as they tend to take that negativly.
Click to expand...

And they shouldn't keep asking me for stuff.

It's not logical for me to constantly ask my friends for money and if they give it to me, I don't care, but if they don't, oh man am I pissed! What a friendship...

I want to feel like I'm participating in diplomacy too. Not just becoming friends with AI players when THEY want. And enemies when THEY are fed up...
 
Matjillam said:
And they shouldn't keep asking me for stuff.

It's not logical for me to constantly ask my friends for money and if they give it to me, I don't care, but if they don't, oh man am I pissed! What a friendship...

I want to feel like I'm participating in diplomacy too. Not just becoming friends with AI players when THEY want. And enemies when THEY are fed up...
Click to expand...
You need to stop thinking of Civ as some kind of political simulation. It is not. It is a strategy game and diplomacy is put in not to simulate real friendship, but as another game mechanic that can either help or hurt players.

In other words, you need to learn and accept the internal rules of the Civ universe instead of demanding that it correspond with your idea of how the real world works.
 
Rohili said:
You need to stop thinking of Civ as some kind of political simulation. It is not. It is a strategy game and diplomacy is put in not to simulate real friendship, but as another game mechanic that can either help or hurt players.

In other words, you need to learn and accept the internal rules of the Civ universe instead of demanding that it correspond with your idea of how the real world works.
Click to expand...

It's not just that. Not only you do not participate, but it's a hurt to gameplay.
 
Rohili said:
You need to stop thinking of Civ as some kind of political simulation. It is not. It is a strategy game and diplomacy is put in not to simulate real friendship, but as another game mechanic that can either help or hurt players.

In other words, you need to learn and accept the internal rules of the Civ universe instead of demanding that it correspond with your idea of how the real world works.
Click to expand...

I know that. It's just that the internal rules of the Civ universe right now makes no sense.... And is annoying as hell
 
I was also kind of disappointed by the patch. Yes, the diplomacy is more transparent, which is good, but it's just as limited as before. I mean, what do I do after everyone denounces me? Why can't I ask nicely for recourses like the AI does constantly? Why can't we trade map information? Why can't the AI capitulate? Why doesn't trading improve relationships?

In my current game as Napoleon I liked how everyone (including me) denounced Bismarck. I was also friends with Ramses, I helped him out when he asked for resources etc. We traded and had research agreements, open borders and (again) we both denounced Bismarck. Then for some reason he denounced me and everyone but the Ottomans fallowed suit. Now everyone is "guarded" except the Ottomans and I have no idea how to improve my relationships because the diplomacy is too limited/shallow. All of a sudden I wasn't that keen on the "denounce feature" anymore because it seem a bit imbalanced. It's like if you get denounces by the majority in 4000 BC then you can say good bye to diplomatic victory.

I would really appreciate if anyone could give me some tips on how to successfully play on diplomacy.
 
Why can't I ask nicely for recourses like the AI does constantly?
Click to expand...

This is probably the key. In CIV 4 you could look at these 'tributes' as a way of buttering up the opposition. For 100 gold you either made an ally love you or hate you, so give it away and 1000 years later you might still have an ally and the 100 gold doesn't matter.

I suspect you can ask for gifts back from friendly opponents, but since the only gift small enough might be gold there seems little point in trying. You could get the last bit of tech research from a friendly AI in CIV4 and that seemed worth doing occassionally.
 
Rohili said:
In other words, you need to learn and accept the internal rules of the Civ universe instead of demanding that it correspond with your idea of how the real world works.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what many complain about.

Civilization games have been very much about giving you the feeling of acting in a real world environment.
That's the reason we are talking to Ramesses and not "Egyptian Leader".
That's the reason we are constructing farms and not "growth enhancement facility 1".
That's the reason we are moving swordmen and not "unit type # 7".

In the field of "diplomacy" (btw, why is it called "diplomacy", eh?) this concept is broken.
Having "friends" asking you about giving resources away for nothing is not plausible. It doesn't meet real life experiences. It kills immersion and makes the game feel like ... well, a game.
It feels less like "Civilization", but more like some kind of "Monopoly".
 
I feel that a middle ground needs to be reached. When I'm playing Civ in any of its iterations, it has to feel like what the AI is believable, to an extent. Maybe on the higher difficulties it can get more game-y, since if you're playing the highest difficulties you're going after the challenge. But in CiV at the moment, it feels like the AI is all smiles until you start to try to win. I've seen the AI succeed in some points with diplomacy, but for the most part it's confusing as to what the AI actually wants of you besides inactivity.

For example, in my current game, I know why Elizabeth and Wu Zetian declared war on me: I'd just come out of three wars with Russia based on pure warmongering. My military was also slightly low numerically but high in experience and skill (not that they'd know that). The fact that they declared war makes sense. That's the kind of AI I like- reacting to real stimuli, rather than "OH NO! THEY'RE PLAYING THE GAME! EXTERMINATE!"
 
Do civs now vote for you out of friendliness, and not ONLY when you liberate them? If so, that would be an interesting change, though arguably it'd make the game less competitive diplomatically.
 
Rohili said:
You need to stop thinking of Civ as some kind of political simulation. It is not. It is a strategy game and diplomacy is put in not to simulate real friendship, but as another game mechanic that can either help or hurt players.

In other words, you need to learn and accept the internal rules of the Civ universe instead of demanding that it correspond with your idea of how the real world works.
Click to expand...

The problem is, of course, that they very often demand ridiculous things from you such as 25 gpt or so. If they ask me for a luxury and are broke, so be it, I'll sometimes even give it to them if I need their friendship, although it leaves a sour taste in my mouth knowing they would never show me the same kindess. The problem is not that people want it to be realistic, but they want it to be reciprocal.

Lop-sided trades are one thing but asking you for freebies and being mad when you don't get them is annoying and makes you feel the AI behaves like a 4-year old who didn't get a sweet after brushing their teeth rather than a historical leader.
 
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